Outer darkness

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, the outer darkness again. I revisit it a few times a year.

A lemon is yellow and a banana is yellow. We don’t say, therefore bananas and lemons are the same thing.

I need to put quarters in at a car wash and I need to put quarters in bubblegum machines. I don’t say, therefore car washes and bubblegum machines are the same thing and are the same place.

I cry when a baby is born and I cry when a baby dies. Because I cry at both does not mean birth and death are the same thing.

So why do we say hell and outer darkness are the same thing and same place just because people will cry and be in distress at going to both places?

 

[Davy]

....

So why do we say hell and outer darkness are the same thing and same place just because people will cry and be in distress at going to both places?

Confusing both places comes from not really understanding what either one is (per God's Word of course).

The heavenly prison house, the outer darkness, the abode called haides (sometimes translated to the word "hell"), outside the gates of the holy city of the future, the bottomless pit, the place where the rich man of Luke 16 found himself, all... point to the same place, a place for the unsaved in the heavenly dimension.

Isaiah 42:7 is prophecy about Lord Jesus' 1st coming to offer Salvation. At His resurrection He went and preached The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" who had died back to the flood. The idea was to loose those that believed out of the Heavenly prison house.

In Rev.20, Satan is described being locked in the bottomless pit, which later is referred to as a prison (a heavenly prison house).

In Luke 16, the "rich man" man died, his body buried, and the angels carried him to the abode of hell. He was in torments, with the Greek word for torment being about a 'touchstone' that measures the content of gold in a piece of raw ore. It is pointing to the abode of hell with the real torment felt being about the most shameful feeling of being without God that one could imagine.

1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached The Gospel to, Peter said The Gospel was preached to the dead so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Thus Lord Jesus fulfilled the Isaiah 42:7 of loosing the prisoners in darkness in Satan's heavenly prison house.

With Revelation 22:14-15 about the saints that are allowed inside the gates of the holy city to the tree of life, at that same time outside those gates are the wicked. That is pointing to the place of 'outer darkness', a place of separation for the wicked and unbelieving.

There is still yet another view of the outer darkness in Ezekiel 44, but kind of difficult to understand for those who don't yet understand about Christ's elect Church being represented by the Zadok (The Just, as Jesus is King of the Zadok, i.e., King of Righteousness per Hebrews 7). That Ezekiel 44 Scripture is about the Zadok being allowed to go the 'dead' for sake of a family member or loved one, and when they return back to the holy city they must go through purification ritual like in old times. The 'dead' in that future Millennial time is not about dead flesh bodies, but the 'spiritually dead', those who rejected Jesus Christ during this present world. Those are the same as the ones of Rev.22:15 that dwell in the outer darkness outside the gates of the holy city in that future time after Christs future return to this earth.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Re: Outer Darkness

• Ps 115:17-18 . .The dead do not praise The Lord, nor do any who go down into
silence. But as for us, we will bless The Lord from this time forth and forever.

The "dead" in that verse are different than a corpse. It pertains to folks who prefer self
importance over the importance of a supreme being. (cf. Ps 2:1-3)

"any who go down into silence" tells us that they might just as well be mute in the
afterlife because The Lord no longer lends them His ear; they're permanently cut off
from His benevolence, viz: God has no interest whatsoever in either their worship or
their prayers, i.e. they are dead to Him; and as far as He's concerned they're like old
documents disposed in the shredder because they no longer matter.

"But as for us" pertains to folks whose association with their maker is permanent; for
example:

• Gen 28:15 . . Remember, I am with you: I will protect you wherever you go and will
bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised
you.

• John 14:16-18 . . And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another counselor to
be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither
sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will
not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

* It's conceivable that the outer darkness spoken of in the 8th and 22nd chapters of
Matthew is a sort of reiteration of Ps 115:17. In other words; although folks alienated
from God are in a darkness of sorts already; He hasn't totally abandoned them yet.

• Matt 5:44-45 . . I say, love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. In that
way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For He gives his
sunlight to both the evil and the good, and He sends rain on the just and on the unjust,
too.

Illustrations for Dante's Inferno by the artist Gustave Doré may not be entirely true, but
they sure do a good job of impressing the total and complete absence of God's
benevolence in the netherworld.
_

 

[Enoch111]

So why do we say hell and outer darkness are the same thing and same place just because people will cry and be in distress at going to both places?

The question is not "Why?" but "Why not?" God created outer darkness so that there would be a suitable place for the Lake of Fire (eternal Hell) outside of space. But God also provided a Savior so that none should go there. However, since many love darkness rather than light, they will be sent into outer darkness.

 

[Adam]

God is within everything. Or perhaps it is better to say, that everything is within God. All things that exist are within God's consciousness. There is no place that exists without God or that God cannot hear. This violates the principles of omniscience and omnipresence. So - there is always hope.

I have heard NDE's of the void (beware, that NDE's are... strange... Christians and non-Christians seem to experience NDEs differently, each according to their own faith). They describe a completely empty black place with no matter or light or other beings, only your own disembodied thoughts. The people who find themselves alone here said that they came to believe they must be the only thing that has ever existed, and they dreamt of their life in the physical world in order to escape the loneliness and meaninglessness of eternity. It is a horrifying experience. So they begin to try to will themselves out of existence, going in and out of some sort of sleep (perhaps this is what it means: the wages of sin are death). However, the void can be defeated, by realizing it is an illusion of your own construction. God doesn't place sinners here, sinners create it, they imprison their own minds, and it can be escaped from through this realization. Once they realize it is fake, it goes away.

I would like to believe that everyone escapes from hell eventually, it is only a matter of time, and that one cannot fully will themselves away; but who knows? Perhaps one can will themselves out of existence, or at least into an eternal sleep. Perhaps this is all hooey though and NDE's are a load of bull. Unfortunately, the Bible doesn't really say much about the afterlife.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, the outer darkness again. I revisit it a few times a year.

A lemon is yellow and a banana is yellow. We don’t say, therefore bananas and lemons are the same thing.

I need to put quarters in at a car wash and I need to put quarters in bubblegum machines. I don’t say, therefore car washes and bubblegum machines are the same thing and are the same place.

I cry when a baby is born and I cry when a baby dies. Because I cry at both does not mean birth and death are the same thing.

So why do we say hell and outer darkness are the same thing and same place just because people will cry and be in distress at going to both places?

Outer Darkness ultimately means total separation from God, spiritually, emotionally and physically. It manifests in death.
Where God is there is life......where God isn't there is death (no life)

 

[Lambano]

So why do we say hell and outer darkness are the same thing and same place just because people will cry and be in distress at going to both places?

Isn't one truly awful place more than enough? Do we really need two?

A couple of half-remembered commentaries theorize that this place is too awful for words, so Jesus uses some vivid imagery to portray the horror of it: Perpetual darkness, a thirst that cannot be satisfied, torment, a burning garbage pit, a lake of fire and sulphur...

And this is just the imagery Jesus uses to make it understandable to us. (Would the master of parables use verbal imagery instead of literal descriptions?) The reality may be even worse.

 

[quietthinker]

Isn't one truly awful place more than enough? Do we really need two?

A couple of half-remembered commentaries theorize that this place is too awful for words, so Jesus uses some vivid imagery to portray the horror of it: Perpetual darkness, a thirst that cannot be satisfied, torment, a burning garbage pit, a lake of fire...

And this is just the imagery Jesus uses to make it understandable to us. (Would the master of parables use verbal imagery instead of literal descriptions?) The reality may be even worse.

Awful places are not God's doing, we can be certain of that. God gives life.....we need to let that register and marinate in the implications. God even gives the devil life.....yes, imagine that.

The devil creates his own misery just like people create theirs. God gets no joy in suffering of any type nor ever will.......didn't Jesus demonstrate this when he walked among us?

Evil and all who cling to it will eventually self destruct......that's it's inherent principle, and that is a given!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Isn't one truly awful place more than enough? Do we really need two?

A couple of half-remembered commentaries theorize that this place is too awful for words, so Jesus uses some vivid imagery to portray the horror of it: Perpetual darkness, a thirst that cannot be satisfied, torment, a burning garbage pit, a lake of fire and sulphur...

And this is just the imagery Jesus uses to make it understandable to us. (Would the master of parables use verbal imagery instead of literal descriptions?) The reality may be even worse.

Or maybe there’s a very, very slim chance you’re just repeating what men have told you. Unless…there’s a very, very slim chance those half-remembered commentaries were computer generated rather than spoken by men.

Once you accept and believe what you’re told, you stop learning, because you already think you know.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Awful places are not God's doing, we can be certain of that. God gives life.....we need to let that register and marinate in the implications. God even gives the devil life.....yes, imagine that.

The devil creates his own misery just like people create theirs. God gets no joy in suffering of any type nor ever will.......didn't Jesus demonstrate this when he walked among us?

Evil and all who cling to it will eventually self destruct......that's it's inherent principle, and that is a given!

Just because none of those half-remembered commentaries, sermons you heard, or books you read, ever wondered if the outer darkness might not be the prison a man will not escape until he pays the last farthing (of the parable), a purgatorial place, does not mean it shouldn’t be considered. If you put even a small amount of thought into it, it’s more merciful, (even if it lasts a thousand years), than annihilation in a lake of fire.
So if your argument is that it makes God enjoy suffering for such a place to exist, we’ll just have to talk sometime later, when you begin to question rather than accept everything men say to be the end of a matter. (Unless taking no confidence in your own understanding means it’s good to take confidence in another mans understanding…)

 

[Lambano]

Or maybe there’s a very, very slim chance you’re just repeating what men have told you.

Oh, we all have writers and teachers we believe and those we don’t believe. It doesn’t matter. Right now we’re just talking.

 

[Lambano]

What is the purpose of these awful places? Why do they exist?

 

[Lambano]

Just because none of those half-remembered commentaries, sermons you heard, or books you read, ever wondered if the outer darkness might not be the prison a man will not escape until he pays the last farthing (of the parable), a purgatorial place, does not mean it shouldn’t be considered.

Just talking…

Catholics have their Purgatory. I’ve read Christian writers who believe Hades/Sheol has a purgatorial/healing function; an asylum for the theologically insane, to quote one. Rabbi Marc Geldman says the Jewish people have a tradition that Gehenna is a purgatorial place with a maximum sentence of 1 year (the traditional Jewish mourning period). But only those whom God considers fixable will go there; those who have committed truly evil deeds will die forever.

These are some of the ways we handle the contradictions and cognitive dissonance of trusting a good and loving God, our concepts of justice, and the biblical teachings about Hell. Others go into denial. And others don’t seem to have an issue with eternal conscious torment at all, as long as it happens to somebody else.

Until you mentioned to QT a possible purgatorial function of the Outer Darkness, I didn’t grasp the purpose or significance of your OP. So, I need to ask the question directly: @stunnedbygrace, why do you associate the Outer Darkness with Debtors’ Prison / Purgatory?

And you didn’t even ask me what I believed.

 

[quietthinker]

Just because none of those half-remembered commentaries, sermons you heard, or books you read, ever wondered if the outer darkness might not be the prison a man will not escape until he pays the last farthing (of the parable), a purgatorial place, does not mean it shouldn’t be considered. If you put even a small amount of thought into it, it’s more merciful, (even if it lasts a thousand years), than annihilation in a lake of fire.
So if your argument is that it makes God enjoy suffering for such a place to exist, we’ll just have to talk sometime later, when you begin to question rather than accept everything men say to be the end of a matter. (Unless taking no confidence in your own understanding means it’s good to take confidence in another mans understanding…)

The interpretation of the images; lake of fire, outer darkness, hell..... the list goes on, are ample fodder for a lively imagination, when ultimately they are figurative of Death.

Consider what God said to the pair in Eden re the tree in the middle of the garden, 'if you eat of it you will surely die'
Is it really that difficult to hear?...'surely die'?

They had not long been created...that's it, came into existence from the shaping of dust and the breath of life.....hadn't existed before......a new creation, just like our planet and the multitude of plant and animal life....none of it had existed before.

Now God says, if you eat of the tree in the middle of the garden you will die (terminate) ie, you will stop living.

I propose that if we cannot hear a straightforward short statement like the one above, what chance is there of hearing anything with more complexity.....yet man insists that the lie the devil told Eve, 'you will not surely die' has credibility........and then wonders why the scripture is as a Pandora's box that requires train loads of words to unravel.

The scripture puts before us Life or Death.....it's that basic. It appears the gravity of both these concepts are elusive to most.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just because none of those half-remembered commentaries, sermons you heard, or books you read, ever wondered if the outer darkness might not be the prison a man will not escape until he pays the last farthing (of the parable), a purgatorial place, does not mean it shouldn’t be considered. If you put even a small amount of thought into it, it’s more merciful, (even if it lasts a thousand years), than annihilation in a lake of fire.
So if your argument is that it makes God enjoy suffering for such a place to exist, we’ll just have to talk sometime later, when you begin to question rather than accept everything men say to be the end of a matter. (Unless taking no confidence in your own understanding means it’s good to take confidence in another mans understanding…)

I don't believe in purgatory, but I can imagine such a place. The author C.S. Lewis wrote a book called "The Great Divorce", which took place in purgatory. In his novel, people arrived in purgatory by train. Not everyone spent time at the train station. Most people set up a residence there. He noted that many of those who first arrived, eventually moved as far away from the train station as possible. Lewis speculates that some might be satisfied to stay in purgatory and not ever want to leave.

But the Biblical view of outer darkness is not like that. The term "outer darkness", it seems to me, is intended to convey an extreme mode of separation from God. At one end of the spectrum, close to God, we have light, beauty, love, and life. At the other extreme end of the spectrum we have darkness, death, ugliness, and despair.

The question in this life is, "which direction to we sail the boat? What course to we set? Do we still have time to make a course correction?"

@Lambano

 

[Lambano]

The author C.S. Lewis wrote a book called "The Great Divorce", which took place in purgatory.

“The Great Divorce” is one of the writings I mentioned, but I remember that it was Hell, not Purgatory.

But the Biblical view of outer darkness is not like that. The term "outer darkness", it seems to me, is intended to convey an extreme mode of separation from God.

Like you, I don’t see in the three mentions of the Outer Darkness in Matthew how it would be associated with a “debtor’s prison” (Purgatory). I see it more as a slow death sentence. If the debtor’s prison does exist, I would be more inclined to see Hades/Sheol as serving that function based on the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

 

[Davy]

God is within everything. Or perhaps it is better to say, that everything is within God. All things that exist are within God's consciousness.

No, no, no, no... that's the pagan belief called Pantheism.

Pantheism represents God like a circle with everything He created inside that circle, and as being God. Not what God's Word teaches, as Romans 1 shows He is separate from His creation.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The interpretation of the images; lake of fire, outer darkness, hell..... the list goes on, are ample fodder for a lively imagination, when ultimately they are figurative of Death.

Consider what God said to the pair in Eden re the tree in the middle of the garden, 'if you eat of it you will surely die'
Is it really that difficult to hear?...'surely die'?

They had not long been created...that's it, came into existence from the shaping of dust and the breath of life.....hadn't existed before......a new creation, just like our planet and the multitude of plant and animal life....none of it had existed before.

Now God says, if you eat of the tree in the middle of the garden you will die (terminate) ie, you will stop living.

I propose that if we cannot hear a straightforward short statement like the one above, what chance is there of hearing anything with more complexity.....yet man insists that the lie the devil told Eve, 'you will not surely die' has credibility........and then wonders why the scripture is as a Pandora's box that requires train loads of words to unravel.

The scripture puts before us Life or Death.....it's that basic. It appears the gravity of both these concepts are elusive to most.

I agree the concept is elusive to most of the Christians I run into. Once a piece of a mans teaching/leaven gets in, it leavens it all. Now, I know we can only go piece by piece, but when you clean a room, you have to start with the first piece.

You have to say, well, I’m in the bedroom. I can see that toothpaste doesn’t belong in here so I will put it where it belongs. Etc.

The first piece I tackle might not be the first piece someone else tackles but that doesn’t matter.
To me, the first piece to deal with is how all humans ever born live forever (albeit in torture) when there IS no eternal life apart from being born again of the Spirit.

And to me, a next logical piece to go berean on is - well, never mind, I can’t say everything at once, and a first step will usually bring a man to more steps.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @stunnedbygrace,

Good to see you continue to make topics about things you are curious about.

Just would like to share with you a few things, just to consider if you would like.

I just got done going over a lesson about the Holy Spirit.

What I learned from that lesson is that there is a spectrum - from darkness to light and the light, fire, spirit, all comes from God.

There is in the light angels of God, and on the darkness perhaps the Angels of Darkness that followed satan back in the day. (However there is still pneuma spirits that bring forth death - darkness still active today I believe - not so much Satan and his Angels but Spirits that are in the darkness.)

The thing is about darkness is getting away from the light, the warmth of God.

I believe that there is a realm of darkness that people reside in outside the kingdom because of Gods love of desiring to resurrect all people.

What it boils down to is that - darkness is the absence of light. There is no heat like when cold is around - no heat.

Anyway, to help in this for people who struggle with the darkness - which can be emptiness, sadness, depression - is simply the absence of joy, hope, faith.

People make their decisions and who they choose to serve, those who loved darkness more than light, simply love to be away from God rather than nearer to God.

This was the fairly short 30 minute (thought it last for an hour) video presentation of where I learned if you decide you would like to hear someone out on the subject - because it does deal more about the Holy Spirit than anything but he did make a picture of a spectrum bar, to show what he is emphasizing.

Ep 492: The holy Spirit - Part 3

Hope you have a good day, thank you for considering.

Also to your question about the Lake of Fire - I believe this is something that is in the presence of the Lamb and the Angels -

Revelation 14:10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Interesting to note, that the this Fire, perhaps come from God and it is a purgative that will burn out all the darkness with-in a person only leaving what is left that was good.

However I believe that there is a separation in the Heavenly Jerusalem with those being outside the gate, and those who are of faith that desired to have relationship with God, going into the Kingdom.

Forgot to address that, thank you for considering.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And you didn’t even ask me what I believed.

I thought I had gleaned what you believe when you said this:

Isn't one truly awful place more than enough? Do we really need two?

I took that to mean you believed, or were leaning toward, thinking the outer darkness was the same place as hell. So, I didn’t feel I needed to ask you.

So, I need to ask the question directly: @stunnedbygrace, why do you associate the Outer Darkness with Debtors’ Prison / Purgatory?

Numerous reasons why I currently lean toward that, a few of which I will give.
Firstly, I’ve met so many people who I am certain have received the down payment of the Holy Spirit who don’t ever seem to fully…detach from temporal things and comforts or lose what is good for what is better or fully gain emotional and mental healing. And since there are too many verses that seem to intone that He will never leave us or forsake us, and since there are more or less stripes (with the more being given to the ones we think and teach will be given less and the less being given to the ones we think and teach will be given more), I have not seen any other way (other than to say He does abandon, forsake or take back gifts) and that does not fit so I have to discard it.
If eternal life can be taken back, it isn’t eternal life, and since I dont see any other way to make all the various verses and parables fit, I come up with a place where more and less stripes are given and a place where purging to remove all dross that didnt happen on earth can happen so we can be with Him.
So…those are a few of the verses and reasons.