Yes, this is no good. In that we are fully agreed.
That will be my "last word" then.
Much love!
Outer darkness
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That will be my "last word" then.
Much love!
PLEASE ANYONE WHO READS THIS READ ALL OF IT FIRST thank you.
I do understand God getting rid of Satan, The Beast, and the Prophet.
What I do not understand how people decide for themselves, that God will burn people forever and ever and ever.
People most certainly decide for themselves how they believe God is - with the use of the Bible.
From my perspective I believe that God is good, all knowing, all powerful, Just in every sense of the word, love, spirit, consuming fire.
Because of the Lake of fire - seemingly being in front of the Lamb and his Angels with the notion of brimstone in Revelation 14.
If you can see that God is the fire - it's God who will burn out the evil or darkness of others - and that is where this Lake of fire comes in.
In Revelation 21-22, It states about people having a part of this - Lake of Fire, and considering God is all the things mentioned above. It seems that God has a restorative purpose - excluding the devil, prophet, and the beast - whom are literally said to be done away with forever.
But people themselves? No I can't get my mind around it. Yet people see the Bible and they are the judge and the executioner for the most part as I have been in my own life having trouble dealing with others mainly online, because they think I am heretical, and that I need to be stayed away from at all cost (for the most part anyway).
It's about God right, in this life we live, it is about Him, and his ways, and His Son who helps us guide us in the ways of God by the spirit that is given to us in our hearts.
Which God sees our heart, and if that is the case he knows that people have the decision to incorporate Him into their life - IF - they want it, but to rid them out of existence just seems that they lived a meaningless life, and they are just seen as Trash, from the perspective of me looking from Gods view looking at others.
Then why in the hell did he send his Son if he Loved the World (all those in it)...
So that all people can be resurrected, and either live a life without God, outside the Gates, or live a life with God inside the gates.
Ill tell you as I told my friend - if the Lake of fire is there as a choice to go through for a person to suffer loss in the afterlife willingly to go seek the truth of Jesus there, perhaps that darkness of the person is burned away...
Because no sin can be with-in the kingdom - and if God burns the darkness away in us today - who is to say he can not do that for people in the Afterlife?
People who believe they have the authority - say no no no Matthew that is not the way it is, but who are they to tell me how I should think and believe?
Wouldn't God be the judge and executioner by the spirit that would lead me into believing it is not a possibility? With scripture it seems very open to the ability of God having something set up in the afterlife for ALL PEOPLE to have a place to stay.
Right?
I do understand God getting rid of Satan, The Beast, and the Prophet.
What I do not understand how people decide for themselves, that God will burn people forever and ever and ever.
People most certainly decide for themselves how they believe God is - with the use of the Bible.
From my perspective I believe that God is good, all knowing, all powerful, Just in every sense of the word, love, spirit, consuming fire.
Because of the Lake of fire - seemingly being in front of the Lamb and his Angels with the notion of brimstone in Revelation 14.
If you can see that God is the fire - it's God who will burn out the evil or darkness of others - and that is where this Lake of fire comes in.
In Revelation 21-22, It states about people having a part of this - Lake of Fire, and considering God is all the things mentioned above. It seems that God has a restorative purpose - excluding the devil, prophet, and the beast - whom are literally said to be done away with forever.
But people themselves? No I can't get my mind around it. Yet people see the Bible and they are the judge and the executioner for the most part as I have been in my own life having trouble dealing with others mainly online, because they think I am heretical, and that I need to be stayed away from at all cost (for the most part anyway).
It's about God right, in this life we live, it is about Him, and his ways, and His Son who helps us guide us in the ways of God by the spirit that is given to us in our hearts.
Which God sees our heart, and if that is the case he knows that people have the decision to incorporate Him into their life - IF - they want it, but to rid them out of existence just seems that they lived a meaningless life, and they are just seen as Trash, from the perspective of me looking from Gods view looking at others.
Then why in the hell did he send his Son if he Loved the World (all those in it)...
So that all people can be resurrected, and either live a life without God, outside the Gates, or live a life with God inside the gates.
Ill tell you as I told my friend - if the Lake of fire is there as a choice to go through for a person to suffer loss in the afterlife willingly to go seek the truth of Jesus there, perhaps that darkness of the person is burned away...
Because no sin can be with-in the kingdom - and if God burns the darkness away in us today - who is to say he can not do that for people in the Afterlife?
People who believe they have the authority - say no no no Matthew that is not the way it is, but who are they to tell me how I should think and believe?
Wouldn't God be the judge and executioner by the spirit that would lead me into believing it is not a possibility? With scripture it seems very open to the ability of God having something set up in the afterlife for ALL PEOPLE to have a place to stay.
Right?
I think you would get a lot from Edward Fudge. Even if you don’t agree with everything he says, I think you would get a lot.
Yeah…on second thought, you might not be interested in hearing the mechanics and verses of why a person would think annihilation is more likely than the eternal torment most evangelicals teach. You’re not as in your head and curious about different views and how and why men arrive at them and I forgot that you aren’t as…cerebral, for lack of a better word. Don’t know what I was thinking. Lol.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry. I was a bit slow on the uptake as we say. You are asking why people believe in eternal torment? Well, I can think of one reason, which I don't think has been mentioned yet. The confusion sometimes lies in the various connotations of the terms "forever", and "eternal". I'll give you an example.
Consider the law concerning slaves as written in Deuteronomy 15:12-18. In that context we find a proviso related to the slave who wishes to remain with the family. "[Y]ou shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also you shall do likewise to your maidservant." In this case, the term "forever" means "as long as he lives." The point is, the slave becomes a permanent part of the family from that moment forward, in perpetuity, as long as he and the family remain alive. It doesn't mean that he will remain a slave in the next age.
Words such as "forever" and "eternal" are less concerned with time than they are concerned with permanence.
Ah…there’s too much to it to bear the oversimplification and categorization and systematic cataloguing of men.
If you’ve received the down payment of the Holy Spirit, you will never die. That is my understanding. Done deal. You will from that point forward never die, except physically. You are not a slave then, not exactly. You have then…become a member of the family. And yet, some still live as slaves, maybe even most of us. I don’t know how much of that is by choice and because we can’t quite detach from the world and our flesh and other creatures and how much might be, as some old saints have said, that God does not call everyone to as much love while on earth. My mind cannot grasp and doesn’t want to accept that last but better men than me have said it.
So if one will live forever and yet never reaches detachment or the splitting asunder of…joint from marrow, that one isn’t pure/tested to come out pure/slag burned off/properly clothed, never reaches or attains to the I-don’t-know-what, I think that one might need to still undergo, to some degree, the…purging/testing that they never attained to on earth.
I guess I think more stripes might occur in the outer darkness and…less stripes might occur among the nations for those who were humble enough and feared God enough to not judge, to forgive.
Im aware that I will sound insane or evil to 9.9 out of 10 people. And maybe I shouldn’t even speak of impressions that have not solidified. But I cannot survive, my mind cannot survive, mortal beings in eternal torment. I cannot survive it. I cannot believe it. I can’t even take it seriously that what satan did and what men do who are manipulated by him both receive the same punishment and fate. I can’t even take it seriously. I can accept the destruction of some but I cannot accept the god that men have dreamed up who consigns billions uponbillions of mortals to eternal torture forever and forever. I reject that god of men. No amount of stern talking to will ever move me from the rejection of their monstrous idol either, because I am not concerned by their disapproval.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Agreed. No eternal torment. The Lake of fire destroys all things and people not destined for eternity.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Simple maam, teachings. People believe many things others tell them, especially if it is from a trusted friend, especially if they are an authority figure. Perhaps you know what hell is, it is the abode of the dead, and thus everyone that dies goes there, there is: no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going. . .(Ecclesiastes 9:10) . . .
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
The five girls went shopping after midnight? I'm surprised that in an era
prior to artificial lighting any merchants at all would be open for business
that late.
The five girls went shopping after midnight? I'm surprised that in an era
prior to artificial lighting any merchants at all would be open for business
that late.
Remember the parable of the man who wouldn't get out of bed for his friend, until he wouldn't stop pounding on the door? Like that.
Much love!
Behold
Well-Known Member
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Many of Gustave Dorés paintings for Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise
Lost are very dim and gloomy and because there's no daylight. Well; I think
Doré got it right.
Man; if people are prone to cabin fever up north in the winter due to the
long nights, just wait till they land in the netherworld where there's never
any Sun.
_
Many of Gustave Dorés paintings for Dante's Inferno and Milton's Paradise
Lost are very dim and gloomy and because there's no daylight. Well; I think
Doré got it right.
Man; if people are prone to cabin fever up north in the winter due to the
long nights, just wait till they land in the netherworld where there's never
any Sun.
_
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm glad you started this thread because I meant to study this subject in detail but have been putting it off. So thanks.
After a cursory review of various passages I think I can safely say that outer darkness is a temporary condition, intended as a prison of sorts (as others have already said.) As Jude has said, certain beings were put there to await the final judgment.
As for the "down payment" of the Holy Spirit, well that is another huge subject.
Suffice to say, for now, that the phrase "down payment" is kind of a misnomer, in my mind, at least. Paul taught that the Holy Spirit was an earnest on our inheritance, so "down payment" isn't a bad translation but in my mind a down payment is merely a matter of economics, whereas, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an active participant in our salvation. Given that the Holy Spirit knows exactly what we need in order to bring us along, I wonder about the folks you mentioned who never seem to want to let go. Have they, in truth, been given the earnest of the Holy Spirit?
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
• Ex 10:21 . .The Lord said to Moses: Stretch out your hand toward the sky, that there
may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even a darkness which may be felt.
The Hebrew word translated "felt" basically refers to groping, e.g. caressing, petting,
and touching.
Now, I have no clue how it's possible to lay one's hands on darkness of any kind, but
then that particular darkness in Egypt wasn't normal; it was miraculous and just too weird
to comprehend because that darkness enveloped people as if it were a liquid.
The thing is: according to Luke 16:19-31 folks in today's Hell are able to see okay; but I
have to wonder about the final Hell's conditions. Will folks be subjected to the kind of
darkness spoken of in Exodus?
A Christian co-worker made a comment about Hell once that really got to me. He
suggested the final Hell is very dark,and although nobody can see anything, they can
still hear; but all they hear in the dark is folks weeping and gnashing their teeth. Man;
that would be awful.
_
• Ex 10:21 . .The Lord said to Moses: Stretch out your hand toward the sky, that there
may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even a darkness which may be felt.
The Hebrew word translated "felt" basically refers to groping, e.g. caressing, petting,
and touching.
Now, I have no clue how it's possible to lay one's hands on darkness of any kind, but
then that particular darkness in Egypt wasn't normal; it was miraculous and just too weird
to comprehend because that darkness enveloped people as if it were a liquid.
The thing is: according to Luke 16:19-31 folks in today's Hell are able to see okay; but I
have to wonder about the final Hell's conditions. Will folks be subjected to the kind of
darkness spoken of in Exodus?
A Christian co-worker made a comment about Hell once that really got to me. He
suggested the final Hell is very dark,and although nobody can see anything, they can
still hear; but all they hear in the dark is folks weeping and gnashing their teeth. Man;
that would be awful.
_
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Matthew 3:9
And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
God can raise up stones as people! Everything therefore must have a spirit and this spirit must be able to take on different forms.
Though I do not believe that everything is God, but rather that everything is within God. God is the summation of all that is, but it is not so that everything within the summation is the summation.
If God did not have dominion over and presence within all, then God would not be omnipresent and omniscient. Is there something outside of God's reach? There cannot logically be so if God is all-powerful.
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