Passover vs Eucharist

[Grailhunter]

@Renniks @Philip James
I hope you guys are not debating or taking exception to this being a Catholic belief.
Infant baptism did not originate with the Catholics.
From the earliest writings that we have, this is a practice of the early church.
From there the beliefs of Fundamentalists are skewed....that is from Baptism means you only get wet and is not necessary for salvation, to the person that energies from the water is reborn a new person, absolutely sinless. It just depends on which one of the 30,000 Protestant denominations you subscribe to, or if you are one of the "church of one" people.

Personally I love the idea of christening a baby with baptism, then I also like the idea of adult baptism to confirm their beliefs.
The Catholics have something called confirmation...which occurs later.
Either way I am not going to pooh pooh either one.
Christ told us to be baptized and perform the ritual of bread and wine. If you say you believe in Christ but not what He said, or if you do not believe these rituals are necessary, then that is between you and Him. I am not about to start judging 30,000 denominations, life is too short.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hmmmm......Satan believes Christ is who he says he is and has faith in him. I wonder why Satan Doesn’t do good works and is saved.

Mary

Satan believes

he does not have faith

huge difference

 

[Marymog]

Satan believes

he does not have faith

huge difference

Hi EG,

I am not sure what you mean!!! Satan does not have faith_______. (fill in the blank)

Satan has faith that Jesus can destroy him and has power over him.

Satan has faith that humans will obtain eternal salvation thru Jesus.

Satan has faith that Jesus is the Son of God and he came to earth to set men free from sin.

Satan has faith that Jesus can perform miracles, heal people and that his Father in heaven will give him anything that he asks for.
Soooooo what do YOU mean by Satan doesn't have faith?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

That gift only comes through salvation, which only comes when they have faith. An infant isn't capable of making that decision.

Hi Renniks,

Is a mentally handicapped person "capable of making that decision"? Should they be baptized?

Curious Mary

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hi EG,

I am not sure what you mean!!! Satan does not have faith_______. (fill in the blank)

Satan has faith that Jesus can destroy him and has power over him.

Satan has faith that humans will obtain eternal salvation thru Jesus.

Satan has faith that Jesus is the Son of God and he came to earth to set men free from sin.

Satan has faith that Jesus can perform miracles, heal people and that his Father in heaven will give him anything that he asks for.
Soooooo what do YOU mean by Satan doesn't have faith?

Curious Mary

1.satan does not have faith that he is a sinner and judged
2.he does not have faith that Jesus died for his sins and that he will save him

do you?

 

[Renniks]

Hi Renniks,

Tertullian did have many teachings that were deemed biblical by The Church. Do you agree with everything he taught?

Also, why do you quote Tertullian and LIKE his teaching on infant baptism but ignore his teaching on how "baptism saves you"?

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none”. Tertullian, chapter 12, Of the Necessity of Baptism to Salvation

Curious Mary

Are you g to actually comment on what he says, or divert the discussion elsewhere?

 

[Renniks]

Hi Renniks,

I have plenty of "answers" regarding infant baptism. And I won't do any twisting of Scripture to make it fit what I personally believe:

Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children”

I also baptized the household of Stephanas.......he and all his household were baptized. (infants make up a household)

Now they were bringing even infants to him......”Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven”

Col. 2:11–12 equates circumcision with baptism. When were children circumcised in Jesus time Renniks??

You have a theory that "an infant cannot receive what he doesn't even know exists" therefore infants can't receive Christ thru baptism. Where does Scripture say that one has to know that He exists to receive Him thru baptism? Can a mentally challenged person receive Christ thru baptism?

Curious Mary

PS....The very verse I quoted does NOT confirm what you said if the whole verse is quoted. Quoting the entire verse ADDS faith. It isn't one or the other: faith or baptism. It is faith AND baptism!!!!

You may feel comfortable pitting Scripture against Scripture and saying only one passage can be right. I don't feel comfortable doing that.

When we look at the New Testament, the closest thing to infant baptism that we find is the reference to three “households” being baptized. In 1 Corinthians 1:16, Paul says, “Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.” In Acts 16:15, Luke says about the new convert, Lydia, “When she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, ‘If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.’” And in Acts 16:33, Luke tells us that after the earthquake in the jail of Philippi, the jailer “took [Paul and Silas] that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his [household].”
Luke says in Acts 16:32, just before mentioning the baptism of the jailer’s household, “[Paul and Silas] spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.” Luke’s way of saying that hearing and believing the word is necessary. The whole household heard the word and the whole household was baptized. In any case, there is no mention of infants in any of these three instances, so it's an argument from silence.

" it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants” (Romans 9:8)

So, are you trying to say that unbaptized infants who die go to hell? Jesus indicates small children are innocent.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

If the kingdom belongs to them, what does baptism accomplish?

 

[Renniks]

Hi Renniks,

Is a mentally handicapped person "capable of making that decision"? Should they be baptized?

Curious Mary

I would think that would be an individual judgment... if they confess faith, yes. Otherwise, what are you accomplishing? I'm not saying baptism does any harm, it just doesn't save in itself. And if someone is taught it does, they could be deceived into relying on this act instead of relying on Christ.

 

[Marymog]

1.satan does not have faith that he is a sinner and judged
2.he does not have faith that Jesus died for his sins and that he will save him

do you?

You should read Scripture before posting your theories.

This concerning Satan in Ezekiel: Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.

And in Isaiah: 12How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Why was Satan cast down to earth EG? Because God JUDGED him.

You have got point #2 completely wrong. Satan sinned BEFORE Jesus was sent to abolish sin sooooo Jesus couldn’t have died for Satans sin. Also, Jesus can’t save anyone if they don’t want to be saved. Jesus doesn’t choose us; we choose Him!

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Are you g to actually comment on what he says, or divert the discussion elsewhere?

You are right. That was a bit if a diversion.

Here is my comment on what Tertullian said about delaying baptism: That was his belief. Why did he write about this belief? Because the rest of Christianity was already practicing infant baptism. His belief put him at odds with what was being currently practiced by the rest of the Christian community. He was in the minority.

Now that I have gotten back on track I look forward to why you accept what he writes about baptism when it fits YOUR belief but you reject what he writes about baptism when it doesn’t fit your belief.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I would think that would be an individual judgment... if they confess faith, yes. Otherwise, what are you accomplishing?

Who judges if the mentally handicapped person is able to knowingly, with all their heart, mind and soul, confess faith in Christ?

I deleted the rest of your post since you keep repeating that baptism doesn’t save when scripture says “baptism now saves you”. No need to beat that dead horse....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You should read Scripture before posting your theories.

This concerning Satan in Ezekiel: Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.

And in Isaiah: 12How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Why was Satan cast down to earth EG? Because God JUDGED him.

You have got point #2 completely wrong. Satan sinned BEFORE Jesus was sent to abolish sin sooooo Jesus couldn’t have died for Satans sin. Also, Jesus can’t save anyone if they don’t want to be saved. Jesus doesn’t choose us; we choose Him!

Mary

You should THINK before you post

you said satan had faith, I proved he did not have the faith required to be saved

you also proved how satan did not have faith to begin with

so,you just destroyed your original argument about him having faith,

it worries me deeply you think he had faith to begin with (now watch, you will deny that)

 

[farouk]

When we look at the New Testament, the closest thing to infant baptism that we find is the reference to three “households” being baptized. In 1 Corinthians 1:16, Paul says, “Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.” In Acts 16:15, Luke says about the new convert, Lydia, “When she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, ‘If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.’” And in Acts 16:33, Luke tells us that after the earthquake in the jail of Philippi, the jailer “took [Paul and Silas] that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his [household].”
Luke says in Acts 16:32, just before mentioning the baptism of the jailer’s household, “[Paul and Silas] spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.” Luke’s way of saying that hearing and believing the word is necessary. The whole household heard the word and the whole household was baptized. In any case, there is no mention of infants in any of these three instances, so it's an argument from silence.

" it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants” (Romans 9:8)

So, are you trying to say that unbaptized infants who die go to hell? Jesus indicates small children are innocent.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

If the kingdom belongs to them, what does baptism accomplish?

@Renniks: It does say about the Philippian jailer that he was 'believing with all his house'; i.e., they all believed. (No sense of infant, proxy pledges, etc.)

 

[Renniks]

Who judges if the mentally handicapped person is able to knowingly, with all their heart, mind and soul, confess faith in Christ?

I deleted the rest of your post since you keep repeating that baptism doesn’t save when scripture says “baptism now saves you”. No need to beat that dead horse....

Maybe I didn't state it clearly. If they want to be baptized and say something as simple as they love Jesus, why not? If they are incapable of understanding what is going on, you are simply doing it for whoever the caregiver is, in reality, so what is this accomplishing?

 

[Grailhunter]

When we look at the New Testament, the closest thing to infant baptism that we find is the reference to three “households” being baptized. In 1 Corinthians 1:16, Paul says, “Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.” In Acts 16:15, Luke says about the new convert, Lydia, “When she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, ‘If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.’” And in Acts 16:33, Luke tells us that after the earthquake in the jail of Philippi, the jailer “took [Paul and Silas] that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his [household].”
Luke says in Acts 16:32, just before mentioning the baptism of the jailer’s household, “[Paul and Silas] spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.” Luke’s way of saying that hearing and believing the word is necessary. The whole household heard the word and the whole household was baptized. In any case, there is no mention of infants in any of these three instances, so it's an argument from silence.

" it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants” (Romans 9:8)

So, are you trying to say that unbaptized infants who die go to hell? Jesus indicates small children are innocent.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

If the kingdom belongs to them, what does baptism accomplish?

When we look at the New Testament, the closest thing to infant baptism that we find is the reference to three “households” being baptized. In 1 Corinthians 1:16,
This here is something you have to make clear. There are going to be some people that will not be able to fathom the concept that nothing is valid information after the close of the Bible. Some will see the Bible as documenting the first 65 years of Christianity, and then the history of Christianity continued.
God continued to provide instructions new and different....for 1955 years. Either way if you tell people not to bother discussing with you anything outside the Bible...you will not waist each other's time. Certainly it is your right to limit your understanding of Christianity to the first 65 years....that is what freedom of religion is all about. On the other hand you need to understand that no one could gag God for 1955 years...Nor did God sit dormant for 1955 years, and they have the right to acknowledge that fact.

 

[Marymog]

You should THINK before you post

you said satan had faith, I proved he did not have the faith required to be saved

you also proved how satan did not have faith to begin with

so,you just destroyed your original argument about him having faith,

it worries me deeply you think he had faith to begin with (now watch, you will deny that)

Oh goodness EG!!

I destroyed your theory with Scripture and this is how you respond? With your opinion?

You said satan does not have faith that he is a sinner and judged. I quoted Scripture says completely OPPOSITE of what you believe. I destroyed your opinion with Scripture and this is how you respond? With another opinion?

I will not deny that he had faith to begin with. You can read Scripture and see For yourself that he had faith to begin with. Start with Ezekiel.

When your ready to discuss Scripture and what it says instead of what you believe....let me know.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Maybe I didn't state it clearly. If they want to be baptized and say something as simple as they love Jesus, why not? If they are incapable of understanding what is going on, you are simply doing it for whoever the caregiver is, in reality, so what is this accomplishing?

I better understand what you mean....thank you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh goodness EG!!

I destroyed your theory with Scripture and this is how you respond? With your opinion?

You said satan does not have faith that he is a sinner and judged. I quoted Scripture says completely OPPOSITE of what you believe. I destroyed your opinion with Scripture and this is how you respond? With another opinion?

I will not deny that he had faith to begin with. You can read Scripture and see For yourself that he had faith to begin with. Start with Ezekiel.

When your ready to discuss Scripture and what it says instead of what you believe....let me know.

Mary

Lol

you have me laughing

if Satan has faith in God. He never would have rebelled and led a major rebellion against this creator because if his lack of faith

your problem is you are to centered on things you think prove you right. You can not see the bigger picture

people who rebel. Do not think they sinned. They think they are right.

I like to look at reality. Not what I think.

 

[Renniks]

When we look at the New Testament, the closest thing to infant baptism that we find is the reference to three “households” being baptized. In 1 Corinthians 1:16,
This here is something you have to make clear. There are going to be some people that will not be able to fathom the concept that nothing is valid information after the close of the Bible. Some will see the Bible as documenting the first 65 years of Christianity, and then the history of Christianity continued.
God continued to provide instructions new and different....for 1955 years. Either way if you tell people not to bother discussing with you anything outside the Bible...you will not waist each other's time. Certainly it is your right to limit your understanding of Christianity to the first 65 years....that is what freedom of religion is all about. On the other hand you need to understand that no one could gag God for 1955 years...Nor did God sit dormant for 1955 years, and they have the right to acknowledge that fact.

So, I guess you are in agreement with the idea that if some early church practiced infant baptism, it doesn't mean they had any special knowledge that made them more right than the protestants who later rejected it?

 

[Marymog]

people who rebel. Do not think they sinned.

Hi EG<

It doesn’t matter if Satan doesn’t ‘think he sinned’. Scripture said he sinned