Pastor says Government should kill gays?

[brightmorningstar]

Rach, Strat,
I call it 'love is god' as opposed to 'God is love'

 

[aspen]

I think Christians are afraid to love. They make excuses like, 'love is new agegy, hippy talk' and 'loving sinners condones their sin' and 'it is not loving to stand by while sinners go to Hell'. None of this is love. Learning to love just means to stop focusing on yourself and focusing on God and neighbor, instead. Choosing to love your neighbor requires us to be vulnerable - some Christians would rather be prideful about their doctrine.

Liberalism at its heart is lawlessness and rebellion and any hint of authority and responsability to that authority is offensive,it finds comfort in itself and its own kind...its like the Egg that lays itself...the Chicken doesn't matter anymore.

Conservatism is the heart of heartlessness and legalism and any hint of vulnerability and grace is offensive. It finds comfort in opposing everyone who holds a slightly different point of view. It is like the chicken that eats it's own egg and only leaves the shells to 'trickle down' to it's neighbors....

Apsen2,
If one wanted to assume homosexual practice is normal for humans because some in the animal kingdom occasionally did it, as you suggested, then it would be logical to see necrophilia as normal because some in the animal kingdom occasionally did it.

I see you are still sticking to your strategy of willfully mischaracterizing what I said and then carrying it to a wild extreme. No need for me to clear it up, I am not trying to win any points, and you will simply continue to mess it up again. But I will continue to point out your slander.

What usually happens with lgbt activists is they then disqualify necrophilia with some other reason which shows their argument is not consistent but only designed to justify homosexual practice.

Hmm...I've never heard of any LGBT activist lower themselves to talking about such an absurd comparison as necrophilia - what a waste of time.

If you don’t want to respond to that criticism them I will assume you support necrophilia for humans.

Well, if you assume that I do I guess that means that you support cannibalism. What? That doesn't make any sense? EXACTLY.

However, the normal and the natural is the male and female of the species together.

Easy there, Big Game Hunter - this little safari you are taking us on into crazy has nothing to do with the topic of homosexual marriage outside of the church - I guess this is what you like to do when you have nothing to defend your point of view, huh?

Which in typical liberal style is accusing others of the problem the others have been trying to correct you on. The Christian faith is in the ‘person’ of Christ as the truth the way and the way; In Christ faith expressing itself through love. – Galatians 5

No one is accusing anyone of anything - I think if I wrote your post you would be accusing me of whining. See, this is the conservative game plan - accusing, name calling, correcting, instructing, pontificating, pronouncing, lecturing - just give it a rest, friend. We are all adults here and we can all think for ourselves. No one needs the paternal conservative to come along side the lost liberal and teach them how to think RIGHTLY.

This is a common liberal counterfit deception that you hold, and is a circular argument. Christ cannot be the truth if His testimony that claims He is the truth is merely written by people of primitive understanding in error, and His testimony is the Bible.

And this is the conservative counterfeit deception (thank you Hank Hannigraft) that you hold - taking a small point used by the opposition and sending it down the slippery slope. If Aspen believes that it is unnecessary to hold the same medical, scientific, environmental, governmental, etc points of view as the people of the OT then lets make sure we apply that to everything they believed about God too! So what that the people back than didn't know anything about disease or the laws of nature unlike us! Just make sure that we show that Aspen the Liberal rejects everything they believed! And BONUS! He used the word PRIMITIVE to describe them! Make sure we use that to describe all of their beliefs about God too - 'Aspen doesn't believe the OT prophets knew ANYTHING about God because he called them PRIMITIVE (it's even better than 'flip-flopper!') Carl Rove would be proud.......

Worship to Christ is the offering of ones body and mind, one’s whole life to Christ according to His teaching. Unless one does that according to His teaching in the Bible one isnt necessarily putting one faith in Christ at all, but as 2 Cor 3 says a Jesus and a spirit other than the Jesus of the NT.

Offering ourselves to Christ means to be vulnerable enough to accept His love and then go out and love God and neighbor. Mind working with heart and acting out love. This sacrifice has nothing to do with reason, unless that reason is getting in the way of loving others.

Similarly, learning how to love perfectly like Jesus loved is only possible as His Biblical testimony shows.

Wow - than I guess the first century Christians were screwed! They didn't have the NT to read - not to mention that most were illiterate anyway. Of course the NT actually says that we learn by listening not reading, but don't let that fool you - obviously the written word is somehow more magical.....

Homosexual is a good test, people abandon the NT definition of love and decide according to their own feelings. Read Judges 17 onwards, its very easy for the people of God to stray and be convinced they are doing right when the Bible shows its evil in God’s eyes.

Ah, here we go again - still trying to prove me wrong by repeating over and over again that God doesn't like homosexuality. Do I really need to mention for the hundredth time that I already know homosexuality is a sin? And that I am speaking about nonbelievers, not Christians? I hope not because 99% of the people reading this post understand my point - yet you seem to continue to miss it.

And its hardly an argument to say that His burden is light when that is what I say as well and that comes from what you call writers of a primitive understanding.

Nice use of 'primitive'! Now you can even try to discredit my use of scripture! Awesome!

Your posts here one minute call the Biblical testimony from writers of primitive understanding and the next minute quote from the Bible as though it is the truth.

What a hypocrite I must be!! You are so transparent, BMS.

Correct. If God is claimed but tested as false by the Biblical account, it would be humanism posing as faith in God.

You obviously have a rich fantasy life.

Now the point is dragonfly doesn’t need to go back to any definition of ‘sexuality’ as we are all trying t show you the terms homo and hetero sexuality are flawed modern concepts.

Well, why would he want to? they support my point, not his.

God created man for woman so the terms are redundant.

Since when does redundancy play a role in sexual attraction?

They are only of any use to people who don’t recognise the anatomical reality.

You mean homosexuals?

I have been asked to fill out my sexuality, if I get the option of other I put Christian.


You MAY NOT discuss/ask:
• You may not ask questions about race, color, national origin, religion, sex, sexual orientation, disability, age, or
ancestry. http://www.admin.mtu...ersionmay05.pdf

Rach,
The problem with this evil is that it isnt about homosexuals at all, its about attacking God with lies that seduce. There are people in the church that have same sex attraction who believe and know the truth that same sex relations are error. If doesnt even matter if they fall short, the truth saves them and they can repent. There are also people who identify as homsoexuals in the world who dont want to associate too closely with lgbt lobbies. And then there is another set of people, some who identify as homsoexuals and some who do not, who as soon as one speaks the truth attacks with bigot, homophobe, prejudice and tries to make out the truth hates homosexual people and should be silenced. Indeed the harshest treatment is probably to those believers with same sex attraction.
If the church rids itself of these false teachers, it will be a lot easier for the world to see the alternative to the world.
I have been to two civil partnerships, but would be unlikely to share communion with clergy who openly promote homosexuality.

I do not recognize homosexuality within the church.

 

[dragonfly]

Hello aspen2,

You said to brightmorningstar,

Christianity, which is a transformation of the heart and mind - realigning our focus off of ourselves and back on to God.

On the surface of the page (screen), this looks fine. It is true if you do it God's way. It is not possible to do it to God's standard, unless you do it God's way. The important thing you never mention, is 'I am crucified with Christ' - the spiritual reality - the cross; in all its power not only to give us strength to deny the flesh, but to transform it by its life-giving power to cleanse and heal. (The cross is also shorthand for the blood of the Lamb.)

I understand your not wanting to be seen as someone who polishes his Bible knowledge and doctrine at the expense of people in need, but you do actually need to be able to couch the explanation of your faith in terms of the written word of God, because it will keep your heart from deceptions.

Anyone can deny the flesh in their own strength. Many do. In fact, many of us have had to strain our strength to its limit to resist sin. But, without the power of the cross, the life of God cannot be made manifest in our flesh in the way Paul describes in

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Another not-so-small detail, is that we have no power to perform righteousness by God's standard, until we have received the death of Jesus Christ on our behalf, as our own death. Isaiah calls 'all our righteousnesses' 'filthy rags' (64:4) and Paul says we must become a new creation before we can walk in the 'good works' which God has ordained for us (Eph 2:10).

Thus we see that those who do good works from their flesh, and not because God has ordained them, (giving power by His Spirit to do so), are at risk of losing their souls. The verses above are stark. Paul puts his thesis in terms of life and death.

The problem Catholicism throws up on a weekly basis, is the teaching that the death of Jesus Christ does not fully save a person. To faith in His death, one needs to add other observances. You may not believe this - or you may not think you believe it. I'm not asking you to give up your good works, but I am saying unequivocally, that you can have victory over sin by faith in Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, without them. That's the gospel.

Your emphasis on service, as an antidote to sin, is simply not Biblical. It may be Franciscan; it may please the flesh; but, it's an extra-biblical tenet. Beware. You don't need to believe anything (in regard to how to be saved, or, how to overcome sin) which is not in the Bible.

Ditching all other ideas and doctrine is a challenge to the natural mind of which Paul speaks earlier in Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. I know I've shared these verses before. This time, let me add some from Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

This walking in the Spirit is not solely to do with service. It is to do with worship in spirit and truth, as well as obedience to the Father's will. Do you know Him? Jesus said: Matthew 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

There is a worthwhile study to be done on the word 'affection' where it appears in the KJV NT. Several different Greek words have been translated into the same word in English. Sometimes 'affect' (response to stimulus) is closer than what we normally think 'affection' means, although they are close.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You will notice that this is a legal statement. There is nothing about love in it, even though we know - God gave His son because He loves us.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified [or, are being sanctified]. I hope you believe this.

 

[Rach1370]

Rach, Strat,
I call it 'love is god' as opposed to 'God is love'

I think love is massively important...as Jesus says in the bible. But we must look at what godly love truly is. God is love, as you say, he loves perfectly. And yet we see his just wrath against sin in scripture. Was his wrath more than his love at these times? No. Even as he was wrathful he was still loving perfectly. As Christians we need to love others...love the lost and the blind. But should we excuse sin, ignore it or turn a blind eye to it under the pretence of 'loving' that person. God shows us that sometimes the most loving action is to take a hard stance against sin. But again, I do believe we can take that hard stance without letting our own sin get in the way...arrogance, anger etc.

 

[aspen]

Hello aspen2,

You said to brightmorningstar,


On the surface of the page (screen), this looks fine. It is true if you do it God's way. It is not possible to do it to God's standard, unless you do it God's way. The important thing you never mention, is 'I am crucified with Christ' - the spiritual reality - the cross; in all its power not only to give us strength to deny the flesh, but to transform it by its life-giving power to cleanse and heal. (The cross is also shorthand for the blood of the Lamb.)

I understand your not wanting to be seen as someone who polishes his Bible knowledge and doctrine at the expense of people in need, but you do actually need to be able to couch the explanation of your faith in terms of the written word of God, because it will keep your heart from deceptions.

Anyone can deny the flesh in their own strength. Many do. In fact, many of us have had to strain our strength to its limit to resist sin. But, without the power of the cross, the life of God cannot be made manifest in our flesh in the way Paul describes in

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Another not-so-small detail, is that we have no power to perform righteousness by God's standard, until we have received the death of Jesus Christ on our behalf, as our own death. Isaiah calls 'all our righteousnesses' 'filthy rags' (64:4) and Paul says we must become a new creation before we can walk in the 'good works' which God has ordained for us (Eph 2:10).

Thus we see that those who do good works from their flesh, and not because God has ordained them, (giving power by His Spirit to do so), are at risk of losing their souls. The verses above are stark. Paul puts his thesis in terms of life and death.

The problem Catholicism throws up on a weekly basis, is the teaching that the death of Jesus Christ does not fully save a person. To faith in His death, one needs to add other observances. You may not believe this - or you may not think you believe it. I'm not asking you to give up your good works, but I am saying unequivocally, that you can have victory over sin by faith in Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, without them. That's the gospel.

Your emphasis on service, as an antidote to sin, is simply not Biblical. It may be Franciscan; it may please the flesh; but, it's an extra-biblical tenet. Beware. You don't need to believe anything (in regard to how to be saved, or, how to overcome sin) which is not in the Bible.

Ditching all other ideas and doctrine is a challenge to the natural mind of which Paul speaks earlier in Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. I know I've shared these verses before. This time, let me add some from Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

This walking in the Spirit is not solely to do with service. It is to do with worship in spirit and truth, as well as obedience to the Father's will. Do you know Him? Jesus said: Matthew 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

There is a worthwhile study to be done on the word 'affection' where it appears in the KJV NT. Several different Greek words have been translated into the same word in English. Sometimes 'affect' (response to stimulus) is closer than what we normally think 'affection' means, although they are close.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You will notice that this is a legal statement. There is nothing about love in it, even though we know - God gave His son because He loves us.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified [or, are being sanctified]. I hope you believe this.

I think you might be missing my point. I am saying that love (unselfish giving of ourselves) is not possible without God - without God, we are chronically focused on ourselves.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

I see you are still sticking to your strategy of willfully mischaracterizing what I said and then carrying it to a wild extreme. No need for me to clear it up, I am not trying to win any points, and you will simply continue to mess it up again. But I will continue to point out your slander

Noise. Happy for you to address my point but not interested in your accusations. Satan is the accuser of brethren.
If the logic is that something is normal because animals do it, then if homosexual practice why not necrophilia that animals do as well.? It is a perfectly simple question. The answer is homosexual practice is as perverted as necrophilia, but you wouldn’t have made the statement if you hadn’t wanted to justify homosexuality.
There are many liberals in the debate who pay lip service to homosexuality being error who will quite happily change their opinion should the right time present itself. They are playing for time as society tries to force the church to change.

Well, if you assume that I do I guess that means that you support cannibalism. What? That doesn't make any sense? EXACTLY.

Necrophilia. I said necrophilia not canabalism. They wont support necrophilia or cannabalism, they are only interested in homosexuality and promoting homosexuality. Any and every argument is presented to support homosexuality. Part of the cover for that obsession is to accuse others who criticise of obsession.

Easy there, Big Game Hunter – this little safari you are taking us on into crazy has nothing to do with the topic of homosexual marriage outside of the church - I guess this is what you like to do when you have nothing to defend your point of view, huh?

Easy there dreamer, the reality is that the normal and the natural is the male and female of the species together, i t is anatomical reality.

Aspen doesn't believe the OT prophets knew ANYTHING about God because he called them PRIMITIVE (it's even better than 'flip-flopper!') Carl Rove would be proud.......

So the point is the Bible writers were inspired by God and recorded what Christ did and said, that they were primitive in their understanding of physics and medicine etc compared with today is irrelevant.

Offering ourselves to Christ means to be vulnerable enough to accept His love and then go out and love God and neighbor. Mind working with heart and acting out love. This sacrifice has nothing to do with reason, unless that reason is getting in the way of loving others.

Not really. Vulnerable isn’t really the right word, the Biblical testimony describes broken, submitted. And it still depends what you mean by ‘love’, letting someone kill themselves by mistake because they have free will is not loving, loving is warning them.

Wow - than I guess the first century Christians were screwed! They didn't have the NT to read - not to mention that most were illiterate anyway.

The NT is written by first century Christians.
Most of the gospels is quoted in letters from the first century. You need to get way from liberalism into a church and fellowship that is sound and not in major error all over the place.

Ah, here we go again - still trying to prove me wrong

Did I say you? No.

What a hypocrite I must be!! You are so transparent, BMS.

So why love your neighbour if that is the writing of primitive people with primitive understanding?

You obviously have a rich fantasy life.

I can trade personal remarks all day if you want, do you want that or will you try and attempt to address the point made?

Since when does redundancy play a role in sexual attraction?

You tell me, the point to you was that the terms homo and hetero sexuality are flawed modern concepts.

You mean homosexuals?

No, as explained there are people who identify as ‘homosexual’ who recognise the anatomical reality and some who recognise the word of God as creating man and woman for union. I meant people like you who use the modern terms.

Aspen2,​

Let me ask you this question. When Jesus said to the woman at the well the water from the well will leave you thirsty again, but with the water Christ gives one will never thirst. How would you describe what Christ is offering?​

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

I think you might be missing my point. I am saying that love (unselfish giving of ourselves) is not possible without God - without God, we are chronically focused on ourselves.

And I am saying that because you never mention the cross, you could just be talking about altruism, which is a God-given instinct when one has enough for oneself and enough to give, but which will fail - as we see in scripture from the sieges of Jerusalem in Jeremiah - when the chips are down, and it's 'me' or the other guy that gets the only food available - self will prevail - unless self is dead.

Jesus makes this statement. It's interesting in a number of ways, not least because loving the world is not included in it - according to Jesus' own definition of 'friend'.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

 

[aspen]

Aspen2,
Noise. Happy for you to address my point but not interested in your accusations. Satan is the accuser of brethren.
If the logic is that something is normal because animals do it, then if homosexual practice why not necrophilia that animals do as well.? It is a perfectly simple question. The answer is homosexual practice is as perverted as necrophilia, but you wouldn’t have made the statement if you hadn’t wanted to justify homosexuality.
There are many liberals in the debate who pay lip service to homosexuality being error who will quite happily change their opinion should the right time present itself. They are playing for time as society tries to force the church to change.
Necrophilia. I said necrophilia not canabalism. They wont support necrophilia or cannabalism, they are only interested in homosexuality and promoting homosexuality. Any and every argument is presented to support homosexuality. Part of the cover for that obsession is to accuse others who criticise of obsession.
Easy there dreamer, the reality is that the normal and the natural is the male and female of the species together, i t is anatomical reality.
So the point is the Bible writers were inspired by God and recorded what Christ did and said, that they were primitive in their understanding of physics and medicine etc compared with today is irrelevant.
Not really. Vulnerable isn’t really the right word, the Biblical testimony describes broken, submitted. And it still depends what you mean by ‘love’, letting someone kill themselves by mistake because they have free will is not loving, loving is warning them.
The NT is written by first century Christians.
Most of the gospels is quoted in letters from the first century. You need to get way from liberalism into a church and fellowship that is sound and not in major error all over the place.
Did I say you? No.
So why love your neighbour if that is the writing of primitive people with primitive understanding?
I can trade personal remarks all day if you want, do you want that or will you try and attempt to address the point made?
You tell me, the point to you was that the terms homo and hetero sexuality are flawed modern concepts.
No, as explained there are people who identify as ‘homosexual’ who recognise the anatomical reality and some who recognise the word of God as creating man and woman for union. I meant people like you who use the modern terms.

Aspen2,​

Let me ask you this question. When Jesus said to the woman at the well the water from the well will leave you thirsty again, but with the water Christ gives one will never thirst. How would you describe what Christ is offering?​

1. Your anatomical argument is moot. People and even animals do not recognize it.

2. Despite your desire for me to condone homosexuality for believers - I do not.

3. Christ wa offering the women everlasting life - did you really believe I missed that point?

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

1. Your anatomical argument is moot.

It is reality.

2. Despite your desire for me to condone homosexuality for believers - I do not.

So do you believe God made all men and women? If you do then why are you saying God’s purposes are only for believers?

3. Christ wa offering the women everlasting life - did you really believe I missed that point?

So how could one love non-believers by turning a blind eye to their sin that leads them to death?

 

[aspen]

Aspen2,
It is reality.

Yet, not relevant. The sun also rises in the East - a fact, but not relevant to our conversation.

So do you believe God made all men and women? If you do then why are you saying God’s purposes are only for believers?

Because I believe in freewill.

So how could one love non-believers by turning a blind eye to their sin that leads them to death?

Without Christ they are already dead - may as well enjoy themselves now. This is a Biblical concept.

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

Yet, not relevant. The sun also rises in the East - a fact, but not relevant to our conversation.

The principle is the same and relevant, the sun cannot rise in the west, and there is always a difference between a man/woman and a same sex relationship.

Because I believe in freewill.

God still made all men and women in His image for His purposes though. So as He did then His purposes are for all men and women whether they identify as believers or non-believers.

Without Christ they are already dead - may as well enjoy themselves now. This is a Biblical concept.

Well only partly. Yes they are already dead, but it is God’s wish that non perish and all come to eternal life through repentance, so if we have Christ is in us, we will be reflecting God’s heart for people, and reflecting His intent, attitude and nature. In short we will be looking at people as God looks at them.

NB I have never enjoyed myself as much as since I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. Once I enjoyed sin but now my enjoyment is in the things of God

 

[aspen]

BMS,
The principle is the same and relevant, the sun cannot rise in the west, and there is always a difference between a man/woman and a same sex relationship.

Yet, according to Christians God made the Sun stand still in the OT. And according to homosexuals, the human body is used for pleasure, not procreation.

God still made all men and women in His image for His purposes though. So as He did then His purposes are for all men and women whether they identify as believers or non-believers.

And He endowed humans with freewill. We are allowed the freedom to misuse our bodies as long as we are living and breathing on the Earth.

Well only partly. Yes they are already dead, but it is God’s wish that non perish and all come to eternal life through repentance, so if we have Christ is in us, we will be reflecting God’s heart for people, and reflecting His intent, attitude and nature. In short we will be looking at people as God looks at them.

But they are looking at you as a control freak. Without God in their lives, they are unable to see the benefit of changing pleasurable behavior and without God, they are right.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

Yet, according to Christians God made the Sun stand still in the OT.

Obviously then you can not tell the difference between something standing still and something rising in the west.

And according to homosexuals, the human body is used for pleasure, not procreation.

But there is still a difference between the man/woman union and a man/man partnership.
How come you cant see that, and if you do why do you keep talking about the mistake homosexuals make?

And He endowed humans with freewill.

Yes he did that as well, but He still made all men and women in His image for His purposes though.

We are allowed the freedom to misuse our bodies as long as we are living and breathing on the Earth.

Not really, God only gave people free choice to disobey Him. He didn’t allow people freedom to justify their disobedience.
Besides, that doesnt change the point I made that God still made all men and women in His image for His purposes though.

But they are looking at you as a control freak.

Not all, some are convicted by the truth. But you are just letting those who reject God control your approach rather than letting God do it. People with God’s heart follow God not the fear of men.

 

[dragonfly]

We are allowed the freedom to misuse our bodies as long as we are living and breathing on the Earth.

Not really 'allowed'. We take the 'freedom' to ourselves in a state of ignorance. Like Saul persecuting the church 'ignorantly'.

You seem to be ignorant of the spiritual component in homosexual urges, due to the fact they have opened themselves to worship devils. Think about this: the spirits which draw a person away from yielding to the power of the image of God in them, are strong. Nevertheless, as we see with Legion, a person is always as 'free' to choose to ignore, refuse, reject, renounce (etc) the power already yielded to those spirits, even if it costs something; and, free to come to Jesus for deliverance. Even after deliverance though, the habits formed in the body by obedience to sin, most likely will hunger for their familiar satisfaction. But, the new believer resists wholeheartedly. If a full decision has been made, and the spiritual steps taken (such as repentance), God will work with the person (Romans 8:12, 13) to overcome those urges.

Without God in their lives, they are unable to see the benefit of changing pleasurable behavior and without God, they are right.

Let me remind you: they are without God in their lives because they have systematically suppressed truth. Not because God is not there.

But they are looking at you as a control freak.

At least some of this anxiety about obeying God, is from the evil spirits which have found accommodation in the person's life.

From God's point of view, the whole of mankind continues to reproduce in its original image, albeit now marred. We were redeemed by the death of His Son. No-one is excluded. God deeply desired that 'Adam' be restored.

Luke 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

So, when nonbelievers see 'control freak', they are every time re-establishing their rebellion against God. John 8:34

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods*, knowing good and evil.

The serpent was correct about this*, but he lied about God, and about the benefits of being 'as gods'.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath [unbelief], even as others.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

 

[aspen]

Ok. I am going to continue this conversation, but I am starting to think that you will not allow yourself to take on another viewpoint on this subject. I have a friend who is a conservative Christian - and I mean conservative - he does not believe in voting or participating in anything having to do with the government. Anyway, his brother is a homosexual - though, he is just as conservative and therefore, in denial. Yet, he sleeps with other men. Even my friend's wife who has renounced the world thinks his brother is gay, but my friend simply refuses to admit it. It is plain to all who see that admitting his brother's fault is admitting that he is going to Hell. Honestly, I am much more interested in your refusal to see the other side than I am in your pov.


BMS,

Obviously then you can not tell the difference between something standing still and something rising in the west.

Umm.....yeah.....right over your head.

But there is still a difference between the man/woman union and a man/man partnership.

Not to people who are only attracted to the same sex. Your point is not relevant. According to you logic, I hope you are just as opposed to masturbation as homosexuality.

How come you cant see that, and if you do why do you keep talking about the mistake homosexuals make?

Because I live in reality not the ideal. I understand what 'should be' AND I recognize 'what is'.

Yes he did that as well, but He still made all men and women in His image for His purposes though.

And men and women screwed up. Most do not live according to His purpose. That is the reason for that death by hanging on the cross deallyo and the whole Resurrection thingamabob - remember? Nothing Christ did will save those who reject Him - yet we are still called to love everyone.

Not really, God only gave people free choice to disobey Him. He didn’t allow people freedom to justify their disobedience.

So you are saying that nonbelievers are allowed to sin, but they must suffer the consequences by the hands of Christians? I do not think so. We are in a foreign land where the people abide by foreign rules - if you really think Christians are supposed to be the people who carry out God's punishment against nonbelievers - show me a verse where Jesus demonstrates it.

Besides, that doesnt change the point I made that God still made all men and women in His image for His purposes though.

Your point is idealistic. I am dealing with reality.

Not all, some are convicted by the truth.

Witnessing through personal relationships is the only way to share a personal relationship with Christ. Passing laws is counterproductive.

But you are just letting those who reject God control your approach rather than letting God do it.

Wow - that is exactly how I view your approach! Instead of letting Christians witness like Christ witnessed, you think that people should be legislated into the Kingdom. If only those nonbelievers were forced to change their behavior......lol

People with God’s heart follow God not the fear of men.

That is between you and God.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

Ok. I am going to continue this conversation, but I am starting to think that you will not allow yourself to take on another viewpoint on this subject.

What we do is
2 Corinthians 10:5 "We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

Quite right I have a friend who is a conservative Christian - and I mean conservative –

But whatever he or you call him is potentially meaningless.

he does not believe in voting or participating in anything having to do with the government.

Ok. In many countries that is his choice.

Anyway, his brother is a homosexual – though, he is just as conservative and therefore, in denial.

So he isn’t necessarily conservative or even Christian then.

Yet, he sleeps with other men. Even my friend's wife who has renounced the world thinks his brother is gay, but my friend simply refuses to admit it. It is plain to all who see that admitting his brother's fault is admitting that he is going to Hell.

Ok

Honestly, I am much more interested in your refusal to see the other side than I am in your pov.

I can see the other side, all I am doing is showing you the reality of it.


But there is still a difference between the man/woman union and a man/man partnership.

Not to people who are only attracted to the same sex.

Well yes there is, that they cant see it doesn’t change the reality.

Because I live in reality not the ideal.

No you dont. It is quite obvious your thoughts are founded in the same unreality as those others who cant recognise reality. The reality is many people recognise the physical reality that sexual intercourse is for man and woman. That some don’t means they are outside reality and the ideal.

And men and women screwed up.

Sure. that as well, but He still made all men and women in His image for His purposes though.

Most do not live according to His purpose.

Sure, that as well, but He still made all men and women in His image for His purposes though.

So you are saying that nonbelievers are allowed to sin,

Me? No I said He still made all men and women in His image for His purposes though. God that is. God didn’t make non believers.

but they must suffer the consequences by the hands of Christians?

Yes if they see God as making them suffer, I guess so.

We are in a foreign land where the people abide by foreign rules –

Well the world is under the influence of Satan 1 John 5. God made the wordl and everything in it, it doesnt belong to non-believers it belongs to God and believers have the inheritance.

if you really think Christians are supposed to be the people who carry out God's punishment against nonbelievers

God’s word doesn’t say that nor do Christians. But Christians are to bring the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ to all. That some see the good news as bad news doesn’t change the good news of Jesus Christ.
The NT teaching is for Christians to go into all the world with the message and in some cases to suffer for it. Your whole approach seems to be hold back so we dont upset anyone and thus haev to suffer.

Your point is idealistic. I am dealing with reality.

On the contrary, as God made all men and women in His image for His purposes, that is both the ideal and reality. Your approach tries to make unreality the ideal.

Witnessing through personal relationships is the only way to share a personal relationship with Christ.

We have not said passing laws is sharing a personal relationship with Christ.

Passing laws is counterproductive

So you wouldn’t bother passing laws against child-adult sex?
Sorry but you keep making these statements which you cant justify.

Wow - that is exactly how I view your approach!

That is because our benchmark on the subject is that God is right, observable anatomy shows it and all the time you keep referring to what some homosexuals and non-believers feel about it.

Instead of letting Christians witness like Christ witnessed,

Then you need to recognise Christ and the NT disciples sometimes told people to repent.

you think that people should be legislated into the Kingdom.

We have said we don’t. We have said human organisaton like democracy does that.

That is between you and God.

People with God’s heart follow God not the fear of men.

Aspen2,
This is the crux of the matter.
There is still a difference between the man/woman union and a man/man partnership.

Not to people who are only attracted to the same sex.

Well yes there is! Thats the point. The reality still exists. That they cant see it doesn’t change the reality.
So you are influenced by people who cant see reality. We are not, so whilst we can see theri pov we recognise it is ignorance and error.
Now, it is therefore better that through the democratic process society as a whole has reality forced on it through legislation than society as a whole has error forced on it just to favour the ignorant.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

Was this paragraph to me?

Ok. I am going to continue this conversation, but I am starting to think that you will not allow yourself to take on another viewpoint on this subject. I have a friend who is a conservative Christian - and I mean conservative - he does not believe in voting or participating in anything having to do with the government. Anyway, his brother is a homosexual - though, he is just as conservative and therefore, in denial. Yet, he sleeps with other men. Even my friend's wife who has renounced the world thinks his brother is gay, but my friend simply refuses to admit it. It is plain to all who see that admitting his brother's fault is admitting that he is going to Hell. Honestly, I am much more interested in your refusal to see the other side than I am in your pov.

If so, please confirm.

If I may comment, I think this discussion has been profitable, if protracted, and I know I haven't said this, but I do understand that if one has a friend or relative who engages in homosexual practices, there has to be a way to live peaceably while praying for their salvation.

The proviso I would add to that, is - for instance if the person you describe who is in denial, is also a churchgoer - then the leadership of the church which he attends ought to take action to exclude him while he is sinning in this way. The object of that is to bring about a change of heart towards sin.