Paul never claimed Revelation 20:4 was a current reality

[ewq1938]

Amill does not understand what ZAO means and how it is used.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is a resurrection from the dead.


Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive (zao) for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Christ used the same exact word regarding the result of his own physical resurrection. Did Christ not live again physically and in immortality after being dead?


Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live (zao) .

Here is the same word. Anytime someone who is dead is said to "live" (zao) it's the result of a physical resurrection.





Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


These people are the first of the human dead to go from death to living just as Christ did and this new living is immortality just as Christ rose in an immortal body. The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is like Christ's own resurrection. There can be no doubt or argument that verse 4 is saying the beheaded saints resurrected and the fact that the rest of the dead did not come to life with the beheaded further proves this as well.




Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live (zao).

Here too the word ZAO/live is used when the dead come back to life which is a physical resurrection.

 

[Zao is life]

Amill does not understand what ZAO means and how it is used.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is a resurrection from the dead.


Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive (zao) for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Christ used the same exact word regarding the result of his own physical resurrection. Did Christ not live again physically and in immortality after being dead?


Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live (zao) .

Here is the same word. Anytime someone who is dead is said to "live" (zao) it's the result of a physical resurrection.





Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (zao) and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


These people are the first of the human dead to go from death to living just as Christ did and this new living is immortality just as Christ rose in an immortal body. The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is like Christ's own resurrection. There can be no doubt or argument that verse 4 is saying the beheaded saints resurrected and the fact that the rest of the dead did not come to life with the beheaded further proves this as well.




Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live (zao).

Here too the word ZAO/live is used when the dead come back to life which is a physical resurrection.

Maybe they don't want to understand what zao means and how it is used? Not that I've seen you at all times being honest with biblical scripture when it interferes with what you believe it's saying, but for a-millennilalists to admit that zao never refers to the quickening of the Spirit is not something that's possible without them getting precariously close to being forced by scripture to abandon the belief that the one thousand years already began thousands of years ago.

Here's the list of verses using the word zao. Not one of them are speaking about someone who has died in Christ and not one is referring to the quickening of the Spirit.

|| Matthew 16:16; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 26:63; Matthew 27:63; Mark 5:23; Mark 12:27; Mark 16:11; Luke 2:36; Luke 4:4; Luke 10:28; Luke 15:13; Luke 20:38; Luke 24:5; Luke 24:23; John 4:10; John 4:11; John 4:50; John 4:51; John 4:53; John 5:25; John 6:51; John 6:57; John 6:58; John 6:69; John 7:38; John 11:25; John 11:26; John 14:19; Acts 1:3; Acts 7:38; Acts 9:41; Acts 10:42; Acts 14:15; Acts 17:28; Acts 20:12; Acts 22:22; Acts 25:19; Acts 25:24; Acts 26:5; Acts 28:4; Romans 1:17; Romans 6:2; Romans 6:10; Romans 6:11; Romans 6:13; Romans 7:1; Romans 7:2; Romans 7:3; Romans 7:9; Romans 8:12; Romans 8:13; Romans 9:26; Romans 10:5; Romans 12:1; Romans 14:7; Romans 14:8; Romans 14:9; Romans 14:11; 1 Corinthians 7:39; 1 Corinthians 9:14; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 3:3; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 2 Corinthians 6:9; 2 Corinthians 6:16; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Galatians 2:14; Galatians 2:19; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 3:11; Galatians 3:12; Galatians 5:25; Philippians 1:21; Philippians 1:22; Colossians 2:20; Colossians 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 3:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; 1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Timothy 4:10; 1 Timothy 5:6; 1 Timothy 6:17; 2 Timothy 3:12; 2 Timothy 4:1; Titus 2:12; Hebrews 2:15; Hebrews 3:12; Hebrews 4:12; Hebrews 7:8; Hebrews 7:25; Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 9:17; Hebrews 10:20; Hebrews 10:31; Hebrews 10:38; Hebrews 12:9; Hebrews 12:22; James 4:15; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 Peter 2:4; 1 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 4:5; 1 Peter 4:6; 1 John 4:9; Revelation 1:18; Revelation 2:8; Revelation 3:1; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 7:2; Revelation 7:17; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 13:14; Revelation 15:7; Revelation 16:3; Revelation 19:20 (cast alive into the lake of fire); Revelation 20:4. ||

It never refers to the quickening of the Spirit. Not even once. Here are just two examples:

"While He spoke these things to them, behold, a certain ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, My daughter has just now died. But come and lay Your hand on her and she will live (zao)." Matthew 9:18

1 Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive (zao) and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive (zao) and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

The quickening of the Spirit is called zōopoiéō in the New Testament. Here are the verses where it is used:

|| John 5:21; John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; I Corinthians 15:22, 36 & 45; II Corinthians 3:6; Galatians 3:21; I Timothy 6:13; I Peter 3:18. ||

syzōopoiéō (made alive together with Christ) is used only twice in the New Testament:

1. "But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He hath [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath [synegeírō] raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

2. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with [syzōopoiéō] Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

You can read any of those verses in that long list of verses using the word zao and you will find that the verse is never referring to the quickening of the Spirit. Not even once.

The same goes for the word anastasis in Revelation 20:5-6 - it always only refers to the bodily resurrection, in each and every verse where it's used.

 

[MatthewG]

Isn't Zao life? Please help thank you.

 

[Truth7t7]

They are not Preterist. We have explained this often.

(WPM), and (Spiritual Israelite) are "Partial Preterist"

They believe and teach Matthew 24:15 (Daniel's AOD), and Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation) are fulfilled, it's that simple

 

[ewq1938]

(WPM), and (Spiritual Israelite) are "Partial Preterist"

They believe and teach Matthew 24:15 (Daniel's AOD), and Matthew 24:21 (The Great Tribulation) are fulfilled, it's that simple

And if the GT is already fulfilled, what is left in Amill theology that has to happen before the second coming occurs?

 

[Truth7t7]

And if the GT is already fulfilled, what is left in Amill theology that has to happen before the second coming occurs?

I don't believe the great tribulation has been fulfilled

Reformed Preterist Eschatology denies a Future AOD, Great Tribulation, and a Literal Human Man that will be Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast)

I believe this future human man will make Daniel's AOD, at this point the 3.5 year great tribulation starts

 

[Christian Gedge]

I’m going back to the original thread because ewq deliberately duplicated in order to detract from what was being said there.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't believe the great tribulation has been fulfilled

I know. Can you answer the question anyways?

 

[Truth7t7]

I know. Can you answer the question anyways?

The reformed preterist eschatology sees a future second coming, that's it

No tribulation, or future human man that will be Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast), no literal (Two Witnesses) no literal plagues upon earth

That's pretty much their basic future belief

 

[ewq1938]

The reformed preterist eschatology sees a future second coming, that's it

No tribulation, or future human man that will be Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast), no literal (Two Witnesses) no literal plagues upon earth

That's pretty much their basic future belief

That's identical to Pre-trib in that the only event that is expected is Christ coming to perform the rapture.

 

[Truth7t7]

That's identical to Pre-trib in that the only event that is expected is Christ coming to perform the rapture.

It's not identical as you claim, pre-tribbers believe in a future AOD, great tribulation, and a literal human man that will be Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast), WPM and Spiritual Israelite doesn't believe this, clear and easy to understand

 

[ewq1938]

It's not identical as you claim, pre-tribbers believe in a future AOD, great tribulation, and a literal human man that will be Paul's (Man Of Sin) John's (The Beast)

I know but both doctrines teach Christ can come to rapture people at any moment.

 

[Truth7t7]

I know but both doctrines teach Christ can come to rapture people at any moment.

Your claim is false, WPM and Spiritual Israelite believe the rapture takes place at the second coming, I believe the same

Enough, it's all yours

 

[Zao is life]

Isn't Zao life? Please help thank you.

Yes. In English it's alive and living = life. In Greek it's zao.
Not the same as zōopoiéō, which is the Spirit making alive what was dead.

 

[ewq1938]

Your claim is false

Obviously it is not false. Both doctrines believe the same thing, that the coming for the rapture event can happen at any time.

 

[Gandalf-]

Examples posted are always of physically alive people accepting Christ and spiritually becoming alive ie: being saved.

Rev 20:4 is vastly different with already saved people who already had accepted Christ, refusing the mark of the beast etc during the GT and are beheaded (physically killed) and at the timeframe of Rev 20, are resurrected back to physical life.

Amill totally ignores the fact that the beheaded saints were ALREADY SPIRITUALLY ALIVE before being beheaded and they don't seem to understand that being beheaded means a person physically dies. Details like these don't matter to Amill.

You were 100% correct, and 100% right in posting this counter thread to their nonsense thread. I did enjoy the comedy of their original thread for about two seconds, but since it was all nonsense and lies, I grew tired of it fast. They never shut up, or step up their proof, but only rehash the same lies maybe reordered a bit, but the same lies, and relentlessly troll with their lies. They never stop.

Then they came here again to relentlessly troll again, and lie again in endlessly asking you why you posted your thread, and like the The-Troll-Nazis they are, constantly bash you over the head, basically telling you you had no right to start your own thread. I saw a similar attitude sort of, in a sitcom, in which they play the part of the Soup Nazi telling you - No Soup For you!

You were 100% correct to post this counter thread, and every bit within your rights to do so. It is because of those Blog troll Soup Nazis that no one wants to post in these forums. I know because of them I don't want to post in them. And I would never have the patience to relentlessly have to answer those Soup Nazis, so I know I will not be posting anything at all in these forums, so as to not be endlessly trolled by them. I may post an occasional joke, or something I do not have to defend to have to endlessly answer their lies. So they have effectively killed these forums, because no one wants to engage with them at all.


May God bless and strengthen you in your hopeless attempt to reason with those close minded trolls

 

[Truth7t7]

You were 100% correct, and 100% right in posting this counter thread to their nonsense thread. I did enjoy the comedy of their original thread for about two seconds, but since it was all nonsense and lies, I grew tired of it fast. They never shut up, or step up their proof, but only rehash the same lies maybe reordered a bit, but the same lies, and relentlessly troll with their lies. They never stop.

Then they came here again to relentlessly troll again, and lie again in endlessly asking you why you posted your thread, and like the The-Troll-Nazis they are, constantly bash you over the head, basically telling you you had no right to start your own thread. I saw a similar attitude sort of, in a sitcom, in which they play the part of the Soup Nazi telling you - No Soup For you!

You were 100% correct to post this counter thread, and every bit within your rights to do so. It is because of those Blog troll Soup Nazis that no one wants to post in these forums. I know because of them I don't want to post in them. And I would never have the patience to relentlessly have to answer those Soup Nazis, so I know I will not be posting anything at all in these forums, so as to not be endlessly trolled by them. I may post an occasional joke, or something I do not have to defend to have to endlessly answer their lies. So they have effectively killed these forums, because no one wants to engage with them at all.


May God bless and strengthen you in your hopeless attempt to reason with those close minded trolls

Soup Nazis, Trolls?

 

[Gandalf-]

Soup Nazis, Trolls?

Soup Nazis & Trolls = Soup Nazi Trolls

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You were 100% correct, and 100% right in posting this counter thread to their nonsense thread. I did enjoy the comedy of their original thread for about two seconds, but since it was all nonsense and lies, I grew tired of it fast. They never shut up, or step up their proof, but only rehash the same lies maybe reordered a bit, but the same lies, and relentlessly troll with their lies. They never stop.

Then they came here again to relentlessly troll again, and lie again in endlessly asking you why you posted your thread, and like the The-Troll-Nazis they are, constantly bash you over the head, basically telling you you had no right to start your own thread. I saw a similar attitude sort of, in a sitcom, in which they play the part of the Soup Nazi telling you - No Soup For you!

You were 100% correct to post this counter thread, and every bit within your rights to do so. It is because of those Blog troll Soup Nazis that no one wants to post in these forums. I know because of them I don't want to post in them. And I would never have the patience to relentlessly have to answer those Soup Nazis, so I know I will not be posting anything at all in these forums, so as to not be endlessly trolled by them. I may post an occasional joke, or something I do not have to defend to have to endlessly answer their lies. So they have effectively killed these forums, because no one wants to engage with them at all.


May God bless and strengthen you in your hopeless attempt to reason with those close minded trolls

Translation: You are incapable of refuting the truth that we share on this forum, so you just resort to hurling insults around instead. It's all you are capable of doing, clearly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isn't Zao life? Please help thank you.

Yes, the word is used to refer to someone being alive and living their lives. It is not used to refer to the act of being resurrected from death to life. Keep that in mind when reading Revelation 20. And please consider how the word anazao is used to refer to the rest of the dead instead of the word zao. That isn't by accident. The word anazao is used to refer to people being resurrected to life, but zao is not. So, Revelation 20:4 is not referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ while verse 5 is referring to the bodily resurrection of "the rest of the dead".