Paul never claimed Revelation 20:4 was a current reality

[Spiritual Israelite]

The answer is: yes!

Haha. It's pretty clear, isn't it? Sad.

 

[ewq1938]

Christians are of the living not the dead

This is nonsense. Christians have died since the beginning, and die every single day physically. Even Jesus died.

What you are doing is IGNORING that Rev 20 speaks of people who were killed by beheading.

they live in the spiritual realm in Revelation 20:4 waiting for the last day resurrection of all, as you have been shown several times

It has never been showed because it is unscriptural fiction. Only the beheaded are described as resurrecting in Rev 20:4. The rest of the dead resurrect on a different day, another thing you ignore.

 

[ewq1938]

This is still being avoided:

Rev 20:4- Already saved people being physically killed in the GT and then resurrecting physically. This happens in the future.

Paul- addresses unsaved people who are physically alive accepting Christ and being saved. He is referring to people who lived during his lifetime. He never once addresses murdered people being seen to live again (a physical resurrection) in any of the quoted passages.

 

[Marty fox]

This is still being avoided:

Rev 20:4- Already saved people being physically killed in the GT and then resurrecting physically. This happens in the future.

Paul- addresses unsaved people who are physically alive accepting Christ and being saved. He is referring to people who lived during his lifetime. He never once addresses murdered people being seen to live again (a physical resurrection) in any of the quoted passages.

Your only issue is that you added physically resurrected to rev 20:4 is doesn't say that.

I believe that it is saying that when they separately physically die they raised back to life separately and still reigning with Jesus. That's why is says "each in turn" in the verses below as in when they believe and when they die.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your only issue is that you added physically resurrected to rev 20:4 is doesn't say that.

I believe that it is saying that when they separately physically die they raised back to life separately and still reigning with Jesus. That's why is says "each in turn" in the verses below as in when they believe and when they die.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

Marty, let's stick to discussing Revelation 20:4 only in your thread. This thread was created to divert attention away from the truth you were sharing in your thread. It doesn't deserve our attention.

 

[ewq1938]

Your only issue is that you added physically resurrected to rev 20:4 is doesn't say that.

It presents us with beheaded people who are seen to live again so calling it a physical resurrection is accurate. What is not accurate is forcing the born again concept into verse 4. That's wrong because those people were already born again before they stood against the beast and were murdered.

I believe that it is saying that when they separately physically die they raised back to life separately and still reigning with Jesus.

That goes against what the bible says about the resurrection of the dead in Christ. It does not happen individually when each person dies. It happens to all the dead in Christ at the same moment, in a one time mass resurrection. It also doesn't say they are simply dying but are beheaded for rejecting the mark of the beast and not worshiping the image that people will build.

That's why is says "each in turn" in the verses below as in when they believe and when they die.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You are misunderstanding what "every man in his own order" means because Paul is clear all that are Christ's at his coming shall resurrect which is not individually over time when people die but at one time.

Yours beliefs here do not match normal Amill beliefs. They reject a physical death and physical resurrection in verse 4, and also reject this individual resurrection concept since they believe all the dead resurrect at the same time.

 

[Marty fox]

It presents us with beheaded people who are seen to live again so calling it a physical resurrection is accurate. What is not accurate is forcing the born again concept into verse 4. That's wrong because those people were already born again before they stood against the beast and were murdered.





That goes against what the bible says about the resurrection of the dead in Christ. It does not happen individually when each person dies. It happens to all the dead in Christ at the same moment, in a one time mass resurrection. It also doesn't say they are simply dying but are beheaded for rejecting the mark of the beast and not worshiping the image that people will build.



1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

You are misunderstanding what "every man in his own order" means because Paul is clear all that are Christ's at his coming shall resurrect which is not individually over time when people die but at one time.

Yours beliefs here do not match normal Amill beliefs. They reject a physical death and physical resurrection in verse 4, and also reject this individual resurrection concept since they believe all the dead resurrect at the same time.

I don't know why you think that OfCourse they were born again before they died and if someone was beheaded do you think that their spirit would be headless? If it was literal would someone not rise if they were shot by the beast instead of beheaded? Beheaded is just an example of being martyred.

The bodily resurrection is a onetime event not spiritual. If you think that the body resurrection is a onetime event, then how come only the beheaded rise in rev 20:4?

The separate resurrections are only spiritual not the body.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't know why you think that

It's from Amill which teaches the beheaded in verse 4 are being saved/born again ie a spiritual resurrection. They are wrong obviously.

OfCourse they were born again before they died and if someone was beheaded do you think that their spirit would be headless?

No, do you?

If it was literal would someone not rise if they were shot by the beast instead of beheaded? Beheaded is just an example of being martyred.

lol, no. Being beheaded is a specific way someone is murdered. We can't change things so they mean something else. Drowning wouldn't be any other form of death yet Amill would argue that if it said they were drowned rather than beheaded.

The bodily resurrection is a onetime event not spiritual. If you think that the body resurrection is a onetime event, then how come only the beheaded rise in rev 20:4?

They aren't the only ones to rise, they are just the ones focused upon.

The separate resurrections are only spiritual not the body.

Not in Rev 20 which speaks of two separate resurrections of large numbers of people, all physical. No spiritual resurrections are mentioned in Rev 20.

 

[Marty fox]

It's from Amill which teaches the beheaded in verse 4 are being saved/born again ie a spiritual resurrection. They are wrong obviously.





No, do you?



lol, no. Being beheaded is a specific way someone is murdered. We can't change things so they mean something else. Drowning wouldn't be any other form of death yet Amill would argue that if it said they were drowned rather than beheaded.




They aren't the only ones to rise, they are just the ones focused upon.



Not in Rev 20 which speaks of two separate resurrections of large numbers of people, all physical. No spiritual resurrections are mentioned in Rev 20.

So what if someone was shot for not worshiping the beast?

 

[ewq1938]

So what if someone was shot for not worshiping the beast?

I'm sure people will be killed many ways but John only was shown a smaller group of people who were beheaded. It's like being shown John the baptist who was beheaded, but not Stephen who was stoned. Both will rise at the same time.

 

[Marty fox]

I'm sure people will be killed many ways but John only was shown a smaller group of people who were beheaded. It's like being shown John the baptist who was beheaded, but not Stephen who was stoned. Both will rise at the same time.

Why would he only be shown them? It only makes sense if it’s symbolic for all who are killing by the beast.

 

[ewq1938]

Why would he only be shown them?

Why only show those who are murdered by the beast? Why not show all who die, from natural causes etc?

It only makes sense if it’s symbolic for all who are killing by the beast.

The beast will kill many for many reasons, but most are not shown coming to life to John. It only makes sense if God is showing a smaller group to John, while other scriptures assure us others will also resurrect at the same time, whether martyrs or not martyrs. All the dead in Christ, from all time, will resurrect at the same time.

 

[Marty fox]

Why only show those who are murdered by the beast? Why not show all who die, from natural causes etc?



The beast will kill many for many reasons, but most are not shown coming to life to John. It only makes sense if God is showing a smaller group to John, while other scriptures assure us others will also resurrect at the same time, whether martyrs or not martyrs. All the dead in Christ, from all time, will resurrect at the same time.

Because revelation was a message to seven church’s about a soon coming persecution but it was also hope and a promise that Jesus would walk with them through it and that they will prevail weather they perish or not.

 

[ewq1938]

Because revelation was a message to seven church’s about a soon coming persecution

Most of Rev's events have not yet happened.

 

[Truth7t7]

Only the beheaded are described as resurrecting in Rev 20:4.

Sorry pal, the Greek word for "Resurrection" (Anastasis) below wasn't used in Revelation 20:4, back to the drawing board on your claims in error

(Resurrection), Strong’s Definitions
ἀνάστασις anástasis, an-as'-tas-is; from G450; a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, genitive case or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth):—raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry pal, the Greek word for "Resurrection" (Anastasis) below wasn't used in Revelation 20:4, back to the drawing board on your claims in error

You show your lack of knowledge of the Greek language. As if Greek has only one word for something. SMH.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You show your lack of knowledge of the Greek language. As if Greek has only one word for something. SMH.

The Greek word that is used in verse 4, zao, is not a word that refers to someone being resurrected from the dead. Instead, it is a word that refers to someone being alive and living. The Greek word anazao, however, is a word used to refer to someone being revived or resurrected and that word is used in verse 5 to refer to the rest of the dead.

If verse 4 was talking about a bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ then the word anazao would have been used instead of zao. What John saw was souls (undeniable) and he saw them living and reigning with Christ in heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

The Greek word that is used in verse 4, zao, is not a word that refers to someone being resurrected from the dead. Instead, it is a word that refers to someone being alive and living. The Greek word anazao, however, is a word used to refer to someone being revived or resurrected and that word is used in verse 5 to refer to the rest of the dead.

If verse 4 was talking about a bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ then the word anazao would have been used instead of zao. What John saw was souls (undeniable) and he saw them living and reigning with Christ in heaven.

They are already living as souls and spiritually in Christ. Why do you not accept they received the first resurrection?

The first resurrection is for all in Christ. It is physical. You have no proof these verses are about heaven. You claim something about them you cannot prove. The first resurrection is what they were given. That is the result of the judgment. They did not have to be resurrected from the dead, as that already happened when they left Adam's dead corruptible flesh behind. But all souls are given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They had to wait for the Millennium to start to use their permanent incorruptible physical bodies.

Why not just accept these souls were allowed the first resurrection?

 

[Zao is life]

Your only issue is that you added physically resurrected to rev 20:4 is doesn't say that.

It does say that. The word anastasis only refers to the bodily resurrection from the dead that we hope for while in these bodies, wherever it is found in the New Testament. It never refers to anything else.

Because Christ is in us and we are in Christ who is the King, being kings and priests unto God and reigning with Christ now is a current reality which we experience before the resurrection of our own bodies.

But the thing Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about is what happens to people at the close of the Age who refuse to worship the beast and his image or receive his mark or the number of his name. They will be beheaded. Compare Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4.

Jesus said to all who believe in Him:

"At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." John 14:20

This is why Paul could say,

"Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:11

Jesus bore all our sin in His own body when He died, and He rose again.

Immediately afterwards Paul says,

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." (Romans 6:12)

This is the context:

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?
2 Let it not be! How shall we who died to sin live (zao) any longer in it?
3 Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection;
6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be destroyed, that from now on we should not serve sin.
7 For he who died has been justified from sin.
8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with (syzáō) Him.

The above is is not what Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about.

1. The only two passages talking about people being killed for refusing to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name are Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4 - and Revelation 20:5-6 are calling this the first resurrection (anastasis).

2. The word zao always and only refers to someone living - alive in a body - in each and ever one of the long list of verses where the word is found in the New Testament.

3. The word anastasis always and only refers to the actual bodily resurrection of the saints wherever else it appears in the New Testament.

I agree that Christ (the Son of man and the last Adam) IS the resurrection and the life, and the anastasis of the saints, whenever it occurs, will be part of THE one and only resurrection from Adam's death - i.e the Son of man's, the last Adam's resurrection from death. There will be no 2nd sacrifice for sins and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Not all Ahmil believe as WPM, Israelite, Covenantee, I believe they follow reformed preterist eschatology that denies a future great tribulation and the future antichrist also

They are not Preterist. We have explained this often.