Paul, the Stoic

[bbyrd009]

"...Neither the Epicureans nor the Sadducees believed in angels or spirits and such, but both the Pharisees and Stoics did (Acts 23:8) and since Paul came from the Pharisee tradition (Acts 23:6, Philippians 3:5), he probably got along wonderfully with the Stoics.

Paul was from Tarsus, which was also the home of a major center of Stoicism, and since Paul's writing is riddled with respectful references to Greek and Roman writings (see our article on Homer) and Stoicism was the major school of Greek thought in Paul's days, it's beyond reasonable doubt that he was intimately acquainted with Stoicism. In fact, even though Paul's writings were later physically bundled with Jewish ones to form the Bible, it's impossible to tell whether Paul's theology was a continuation of Judaic or Stoic thought.

Paul drew freely from any source that might explain the gospel..."
The amazing name Stoics: meaning and etymology

 

[bbyrd009]

was Paul a Stoic? - Google Search

 

[Windmill Charge]

Paul drew freely from any source that might explain the gospel

There is nothing wrong with that. All that matters is that our wisedom is subordinate to Gods, or that we explain everything by reference to the bible.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is nothing wrong with that. All that matters is that our wisedom is subordinate to Gods, or that we explain everything by reference to the bible.

interesting how much of the Bible is drawn from other sources though, i never realized how much. I guess far from being a genetically distinct race of ppl or whatever, the impression we get of "Hebrew" from the OT, Israel was the crossroads of basically all the cultures then known, likely minus "the East" just bc they were not interacting with the known world at the time

 

[Davy]

In fact, even though Paul's writings were later physically bundled with Jewish ones to form the Bible, it's impossible to tell whether Paul's theology was a continuation of Judaic or Stoic thought.

I especially disagree with that underlined statement above that you made.

The rest of your post almost sounds like you believe Apostle Paul was a Stoic, yet Paul was definitely not a Stoic, regardless that the areas he lived involved pagan ideas of men.

I get your point about Paul being able to communicate with unbelievers because of familiarity with their pagan doctrines, but he was always contrasting those doctrines of men (like Stoicism, or any other) with The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Even the Greek word hades the Greeks used in their pagan beliefs for the underworld Paul used to represent the abode of hell, yet that didn't mean he preached their... version of hades.

 

[bbyrd009]

I especially disagree with that underlined statement above that you made.

i didn't make it tho; i just quoted it

The rest of your post almost sounds like you believe Apostle Paul was a Stoic, yet Paul was definitely not a Stoic

as the article concludes, yes. Paul likely was a Stoic, before he was not a Stoic

Even the Greek word hades the Greeks used in their pagan beliefs for the underworld Paul used to represent the abode of hell, yet that didn't mean he preached their... version of hades.

Paul would have had no idea what we even mean by "hell," that did not come until the Anglo-Saxons got involved with translating Scripture, i guess

 

[Helen]

Another interesting one.
Not that I will pretend to understand a whole lot of it.
*Obviously I believe Paul heard from the Spirit of God...and a couple of times he actually states that "this is me speaking"...showing that it was a point he was making personally and not Spirit-given. So he is honest.
Therefore as Pilate said....." I find no fault with this man." :)

Because I am thinking about conscience today..I smiled at-

"I think it’s clear that Paul reflects some terms and concepts that likely derived originally from Stoicism. Paul’s references to a human “conscience” (Greek: syneidesis) give us a cogent example (e.g., Romans 2:15; 9:1, and other references in Paul and other NT texts). But in these cases, we’re likely dealing with things that, by Paul’s time, had long-since become simply part of the intellectual furniture (or cultural “groundwater”) of the day. In short, lots of people came to think that people had a conscience and wouldn’t have been aware that to do so was a Stoic notion. There’s a danger of something like the etymological fallacy, if we aren’t careful."

 

[Davy]

i didn't make it tho; i just quoted it
as the article concludes, yes. Paul likely was a Stoic, before he was not a Stoic

Paul would have had no idea what we even mean by "hell," that did not come until the Anglo-Saxons got involved with translating Scripture, i guess

Oh, I see now. My bad. I apologize for assuming you wrote it, even though I still strongly disagree with it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh, I see now. My bad. I apologize for assuming you wrote it, even though I still strongly disagree with it.

ah, "it" being what, specifically?

 

[Davy]

ah, "it" being what, specifically?

That section you quoted from the article.

Stoicism has some good principles involving ethics and self-control, but other philosophies of the east also include many of the same type of principles while worshiping idols. Paul's concepts from Christian doctrine shows where the good principles from ideas like Stoicism originates, i.e., from God Himself and His laws. This is why Paul compared The Gospel with the 'unknown god' the Greeks had erected because they didn't know Him, though they obviously felt Him.

As for the word hades, that was the only word the Greeks were familiar with about the concept of an underworld, so Paul used it, but he gave a detail the Greeks weren't familiar with, which came from Paul's understanding in God's Holy Writ, and not from any Greek paganism.

 

[bbyrd009]

That section you quoted from the article.

Stoicism has some good principles involving ethics and self-control, but other philosophies of the east also include many of the same type of principles while worshiping idols. Paul's concepts from Christian doctrine shows where the good principles from ideas like Stoicism originates, i.e., from God Himself and His laws. This is why Paul compared The Gospel with the 'unknown god' the Greeks had erected because they didn't know Him, though they obviously felt Him.

As for the word hades, that was the only word the Greeks were familiar with about the concept of an underworld, so Paul used it, but he gave a detail the Greeks weren't familiar with, which came from Paul's understanding in God's Holy Writ, and not from any Greek paganism.

well, that is what the article is about, how Paul's theology developed? i think most of your concerns are prolly addressed in the article, which goes into his differences with Zeno also.

 

[Davy]

well, that is what the article is about, how Paul's theology developed? i think most of your concerns are prolly addressed in the article, which goes into his differences with Zeno also.

Well, if suggested how Paul's theology developed was from the classical Greek philosophers, then that is totally false. Paul was educated by the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel.

Acts 22:3
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
KJV

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, if suggested how Paul's theology developed was from the classical Greek philosophers, then that is totally false. Paul was educated by the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel.

Gamaliel was responsible for Saul's crimes then, before his conversion to Paul? oops, huh?
Paul could only have had one teacher? "From Tarsus" alone argues against that, imo.

Wadr i am done fielding guesses based upon preemptive judgement of an article you obviously have not read; if is a big word, ok. Casting aspersions on Paul is not the intent here, if that is your worry? dispersions? whichever

 

[mjrhealth]

Well, if suggested how Paul's theology developed was from the classical Greek philosophers, then that is totally false. Paul was educated by the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel.

You missed teh point as some others do, as Saul he was Respected by men but didnt know Jesus, as Paul after his encounter, He was despised by men but accepted by God.

This bit

Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

after His conversion it was back to square one, I know nothing teach me. All that learning accounts for nothing in Gods Kingdom but it did help Him when talking to teh pharisees after.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Empty vessels so hard to find.

 

[bbyrd009]

so hard to fit with the symbology of water into wine too, ya, even if i like it myself, in a different analogy
that's more like Buddhist or something, isn't it? @mjrhealth
Christian doctrine really occludes the concept imo, can you Quote any vv for this even?
die daily or something seems as close as you can get?
empty vessels in the Bible do not really rep souls, do they?
empty vessels bible - Google Search

the Buddhist concept is a lot more helpful imo. We scoff at meditating, but most Christians would be constitutionally unable to sit alone in a cave in the quiet dark for ten minutes, i guess? So i love the empty vessel concept, don't get me wrong, but the Philippians parable amounts to a pointer, without really relaying how to get there, seems like. That is tangentially approached again in fasting, without ever being directly related, although i bet they share some root words

 

[mjrhealth]

empty vessels in the Bible do not really rep souls, do they?

a man filled with himself cannot be taught, Jesus didnt use vessels already filled to do His thing. he used empty vessels chosen for Gods duty

Joh 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

So few willing to be emptied too many rather "boast' of how they did it, than thanking Him for what he did. Coulldnt really understand much else of what your wrote sorry, it just goes over my head.

 

[bbyrd009]

a man filled with himself cannot be taught, Jesus didnt use vessels already filled to do His thing. he used empty vessels chosen for Gods duty

Joh 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

this would be very clean water, used for ritual washing, too. The notion that you are garbage to God is a really bad one

 

[bbyrd009]

So few willing to be emptied too

well, the lesson is not really taught in Christendom, ya, i agree.
do you have a thread on how to become empty? what do you mean by that?
the advantages of sitting alone in a cave until after you have met your monster cannot be overstated here imo
you have to be empty to do that

 

[bbyrd009]

So few willing to be emptied too many rather "boast' of how they did it, than thanking Him for what he did.

well, see that they are just making plain where they are spiritually, new arrivals every day right. Law and Works are hopelessly boondoggled to a new believer, takes years to sort that mess out. All of your works will be judged
nonetheless. You still gotta pick up your cross and follow

 

[bbyrd009]

Coulldnt really understand much else of what your wrote sorry, it just goes over my head.

ha, what i was saying is that if you ever stopped accusing us about so few willing to empty and started an emptying discipline you would end up reinventing the Buddhist path for that most likely lol
but fasting is a good start tho, that's enough hint i guess

you got a blog on fasting, maybe? :)
i mean, what do you mean by "so few willing to empty?"
you say this a lot, i've heard it...100 times, maybe?
if you've had some emptying experience, or something?
make a good testimony, if you haven't already
bmg