Paul, the Stoic

[mjrhealth]

@bbyrd009 well you could of done them all in one post with separate sections. Burt each to his own. Wel lyou go too church you get filled with treligion MM and BOL , kepha 3 very fine examples could also include the 2 sda's we had hanging around, if God wants to convert them or they desire to be converted. that all must be let go, empty the polluted glass. no different to teh learned man who spends all his time studying and fills himself with his and others opinions and understanding, again all that must be let go, but who is wiling to walk into there class and apologize to his students that he has being lying to them for 20 years, would you. Its hwy i dont speak about teh end times , i know very little, has not being taught to me, all i care is if God wants me here, im here, if he dont than HE can take me home. Nothing to do with caves and all that fleshy stuff, just the need to admit as I said before, I confess God i know nothing, teach me". did you not post something similar, of course if you want to go sit in a cave, please do, just make you stink.

 

[amadeus]

a man filled with himself cannot be taught, Jesus didnt use vessels already filled to do His thing. he used empty vessels chosen for Gods duty

Joh 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

So few willing to be emptied too many rather "boast' of how they did it, than thanking Him for what he did. Coulldnt really understand much else of what your wrote sorry, it just goes over my head.

Hmmm... To me these verses seem to fit:

When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

 

[mjrhealth]

@amadeus thats why its by faith that none should boast, i have no idea of how, walking down teh street beating yourself with flailing whips is supposed to be pleasing to God, devil loves it thou.

 

[Helen]

well, the lesson is not really taught in Christendom, ya, i agree.
do you have a thread on how to become empty? what do you mean by that?
the advantages of sitting alone in a cave until after you have met your monster cannot be overstated here imo
you have to be empty to do that

( to @mjrhealth and @amadeus too)

I used to believe in the "empty thing"...but it can be dangerous.
Obviously not for everyone...but for the immature and babes.
A friend of ours went to a meeting in town ( a long while ago) and this evangelist sort of guy was having meetings. He had a prayer line afterward for those who wanted to be more "filled."
He was one who went along the line telling them to "empty themselves" so they can be filled. She did...totally let go.
( my bible says " Lay hand on no man suddenly") I take that literally...if we don't know the person, we have no idea what they are imparting!!
Long story short...we got a call from her husband...she had gone nuts..
She sat on the living floor with his boots in her arms singing to them...poor thing. We prayed over her to no avail. It was too strong for us...I called the doctor, he gave her a shot...and put her in hospital. Three weeks later she told me all she experienced after he had said " Let go and let God fill you".
I 100% agree with regular infilling by the Holy Spirit , but no on vacating 'the house'...other critters are waiting to enter a 'vacant unguarded house.'
Since then I have always been overly careful. Maybe too careful...but always on guard.

My two cents...H

 

[mjrhealth]

( to @mjrhealth and @amadeus too)

I used to believe in the "empty thing"...but it can be dangerous.
Obviously not for everyone...but for the immature and babes.
A friend of ours went to a meeting in town ( a long while ago) and this evangelist sort of guy was having meetings. He had a prayer line afterward for those who wanted to be more "filled."
He was one who went along the line telling them to "empty themselves" so they can be filled. She did...totally let go.
( my bible says " Lay hand on no man suddenly") I take that literally...if we don't know the person, we have no idea what they are imparting!!
Long story short...we got a call from her husband...she had gone nuts..
She sat on the living floor with his boots in her arms singing to them...poor thing. We prayed over her to no avail. It was too strong for us...I called the doctor, he gave her a shot...and put her in hospital. Three weeks later she told me all she experienced after he had said " Let go and let God fill you".
I 100% agree with regular infilling by the Holy Spirit , but no on vacating 'the house'...other critters are waiting to enter a 'vacant unguarded house.'
Since then I have always been overly careful. Maybe too careful...but always on guard.

My two cents...H

Yes but we are not speaking of that sort of emptying, my dad watched as a spirit jumped off a pastor on to him while the pastor was praying and he had to rebuke it. Its why i stay away from it all, its not from God what they do.

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

more of Him less of us, teh way it is supposed to be.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes but we are not speaking of that sort of emptying

hmm, sure seems like

why the directives to fast then, if sitting in a cave is useless, just makes you stinky, again? didn't quite get that.
your emptying contains no self-denial at all?

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, if suggested how Paul's theology developed was from the classical Greek philosophers, then that is totally false.

anyway, to the point it seems you are trying to make, yes, i guess Paul was prolly never a Stoic per se, but as the article brings out, there is some Stoicism in Christianity and in the Bible, apparently

 

[amadeus]

( to @mjrhealth and @amadeus too)

I used to believe in the "empty thing"...but it can be dangerous.
Obviously not for everyone...but for the immature and babes.
A friend of ours went to a meeting in town ( a long while ago) and this evangelist sort of guy was having meetings. He had a prayer line afterward for those who wanted to be more "filled."

The emptying is of the ways of men which while they remain in us we will want to follow them. Many of them are bad habits we have learned over the years. They don't simply go away, but in order to overcome as Jesus overcame, we must get rid not only of the sin, but of the ways which led us to sin and will do so again if we allow it. They are our bad habits. God did not just remove them all when we repented that first time. Sometimes more work is needed:

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

He was one who went along the line telling them to "empty themselves" so they can be filled. She did...totally let go.
( my bible says " Lay hand on no man suddenly") I take that literally...if we don't know the person, we have no idea what they are imparting!!

Oh I believe also literally in the laying hands "on no man suddenly", but also in a more spiritual expression of it. In part it may be explained with this verse:

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Matt 7:6

Some people are hungry and thirsty for God's righteousness, but if we do not know that they are, how careful should we be?

Long story short...we got a call from her husband...she had gone nuts..
She sat on the living floor with his boots in her arms singing to them...poor thing. We prayed over her to no avail. It was too strong for us...I called the doctor, he gave her a shot...and put her in hospital. Three weeks later she told me all she experienced after he had said " Let go and let God fill you".
I 100% agree with regular infilling by the Holy Spirit , but no on vacating 'the house'...other critters are waiting to enter a 'vacant unguarded house.'
Since then I have always been overly careful. Maybe too careful...but always on guard.

My two cents...H

Ah yes and then there are these words about not leaving our house completely empty:

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." Matt 12:43-45

When we come to God that first time we are not empty, but very full of ourselves, which is why we need help. The help will come when we are able to make room within ourselves for what God has to give us. The following man was needing something from God, but he really did not expect it:

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God." Acts 3:6-8

 

[amadeus]

hmm, sure seems like

why the directives to fast then, if sitting in a cave is useless, just makes you stinky, again? didn't quite get that.
your emptying contains no self-denial at all?

When a person is fasting from food, it is certainly not a fast from the flesh and blood of Jesus, is it? It may be such a physical fast from meat and potatoes, and such, but more importantly, should it not be a fast from everything we consume other than the flesh and blood of Jesus?

Consider what Isaiah wrote:

Isa 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Isa 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
Isa 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
Isa 58:10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

 

[mjrhealth]

why the directives to fast then, if sitting in a cave is useless, just makes you stinky, again? didn't quite get that.
your emptying contains no self-denial at all?

when you have lost everything for His sake, than you can come tell me about it. And i am not the only one others have had it far worse than me.

 

[bbyrd009]

When a person is fasting from food, it is certainly not a fast from the flesh and blood of Jesus, is it? It may be such a physical fast from meat and potatoes, and such, but more importantly, should it not be a fast from everything we consume other than the flesh and blood of Jesus?

Consider what Isaiah wrote:

Isa 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.
Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.
Isa 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
Isa 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
Isa 58:10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
Isa 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Isa 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

nice, i agree; prolly needs to be translated into English still, but nonetheless

 

[bbyrd009]

when you have lost everything for His sake, than you can come tell me about it.

? that is an answer to this?

why the directives to fast then, if sitting in a cave is useless, just makes you stinky, again? didn't quite get that.
your emptying contains no self-denial at all?

i am asking you to tell me about it, after all? i could play around with maybe phrasing it better, i know i'm bad at that, but all of my other attempts didn't read much better to me. Why do you play at being offended up there, instead of taking the opp to testify?


(fwiw a cave is not strictly necessary imo; it is just an ideal prolly; the closest they had to a sensory deprivation tank
Bible Search: cave caves)

 

[amadeus]

nice, i agree; prolly needs to be translated into English still, but nonetheless

I should be very slow about translating it. God is the One who sends messages in dreams, visons, parables or messages in tongues, and then as He sees fit He also provides an interpretation. What interpretation does He have for each of us? Is it the same for every person every time? I would say, no!

 

[mjrhealth]

Why do you play at being offended up there

Have no idea why you think im offend, being around "christians" to long to be offended. But i will since you asked nicely.

 

[bbyrd009]

I should be very slow about translating it. God is the One who sends messages in dreams, visons, parables or messages in tongues, and then as He sees fit He also provides an interpretation. What interpretation does He have for each of us? Is it the same for every person every time? I would say, no!

ha, didn't mean interpret it ; that's just my standard reaction to old KJV lol.

 

[bbyrd009]

why the directives to fast then?

when you have lost everything for His sake, than you can come tell me about it.

Have no idea why you think im offend

bc you did not reply, really?
i'm contemplating just erasing all this, dunno if it clarifies anything or not

But i will since you asked nicely.

i'm reading here that a reply is forthcoming? so, cool

 

[bbyrd009]

God did not just remove them all when we repented that first time. Sometimes more work is needed:

i guess everyone is different, and it may be possible that some ppl change their minds at the altar for good, i guess; but i have yet to meet any. Does anyone escape "seven worse spirits," do you think? Scripture seems to allow that some do, i guess.

But the way i understand Cain, plowing his own ground, killing Abel, the shepherd, seems to frown on any direct methods of "self-improvement," and instead seems to direct a new believer right into "shepherding," which is then poorly described, seems to me, usually turned into "preach/witness at strangers?" And fasting gets pretty much overlooked, seems to me?

i understand maybe not hitting a brand new believer with fasting, but it seems to me the concept never gets picked back up, and instead newbies get hit with "predestination," i mean arg already.

Gee, i wonder where all of the "i am now saved, and it is no longer possible for me to even sin" ppl are coming from?
when did we forget that sin is looking inward, and forgiveness is supposed to be our looking outward?
instead we forgive ourselves, and look for sin in others?

 

[bbyrd009]

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

such a strange passage, imo; the blind man is not asked about his faith at all, and Christ is portrayed as needing to do more work to heal the guy? i always wondered if the ref to trees was not the hidden point there?

"and he was restored, and saw every man clearly."

is a strange way to finish the passage too, imo, what with all of the other parable at "seeing clearly" not being accomplished with the eyes at all? Iow there is a sense in which "men as trees" is even arguably a better way to see them?

 

[bbyrd009]

"When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation." Matt 12:43-45

been there, for sure. brought it on myself tho i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God." Acts 3:6-8

5So he turned to them,d expecting to get something from them.

so again we have a healing sans any faith mechanism; how does one fit this in with "your faith has made you well?" do you think? This guy was literally seeking money!