PAUL WROTE DO NOT LISTEN TO THE PRETRIB RAPTURE TEACHERS

[Randy Kluth]

Nevertheless it is in heaven. From heaven that then opens, Jesus and us return to earth.


Except once again you made that up whole of cloth.

Rather, that is the obvious conclusion. The wedding celebration would be at the place and at the time where it was promised throughout Scriptures, and that is at the inception of the Kingdom *on earth.* Every prophecy of Christ's Return in the NT is predicated on Daniel's vision in ch. 7 indicating the Son of Man comes with the clouds. That is, he returns to the earth from heaven in order to see God's Kingdom eternally established on the earth. That's not "whole cloth," brother. That is a studied determination of what the promised "Wedding" of God to His People will be.

You simply assault verses at will to try and pretend they fit your one second yo yo theory and then spam verse to pretend they agree!

You constantly insult my "yo yo one second theory" while ignoring the fact that Paul taught this!! You have no answer for it--your answer is simply to insult it as a tax on your brain!

Why don't you actually acknowledge that we go to meet Christ at his Coming? Why don't you acknowledge that we are caught up suddenly, that our transformation takes place in an instant? Why don't you recognize this as *biblical teaching," as opposed to insulting it as only coming from me?

You can insult me all you want. But it is the truth that matters. And it shouldn't be insulted.

When you pretend the marriage and the gathering in the air and the return to earth all involve less time than a snap of your fingers, yes. Sorry but fantasy is not bible study or sound doctrine.


A different instant than the one we are gathered up in the air? So how does that work, are there three instants (Rapture, Marriage ceremony, and return to earth of Jesus) all taking a second or so in total!? Hilarious.


Except I just looked at Dan 7 and saw no such words or thoughts or anything remotely similar. Funny, that.


Yes we will rule with Him one day. Not sure how this is supposed to be some explantionn or the marriage supper of the Lamb in heaven!

I've told you, but you're more interested in laughing and indulging in levity than in seriously considering the views of brothers, who base their positions on the word of God. Sleep well! I know I do.

 

[David in NJ]

The other verses you listed do not say a second coming. In the verse in Hebrews it says this

It is actually Heb 9 not chapter 8 and verse 27 is about Paul.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

When He appears to gather us in the air to have new eternal bodies, that is the salvation spoken of. We already are saved in spirit. So when is that? Obviously the Rapture.

As usual and expected absolutely nothing to do with the yo yo theory. Do you consider that honest discussion?

There is no need for God to say "second coming" because HE irrefutably implied it from Genesis, thru the Prophets, the Gospel, the Apostles and finally Revelation.

We who know and love the TRUTH, fear His Authority so that we do not add to His words nor deny them.

pre-trib theory has not a single scripture that supports it AND it violates the commandments of God

Simplicity in Christ = if pre-trib rapture were true, HE would of spoke it and we would easily be able to find it and quote it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The other verses you listed do not say a second coming. In the verse in Hebrews it says this

It is actually Heb 9 not chapter 8 and verse 27 is about Paul.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

When He appears to gather us in the air to have new eternal bodies, that is the salvation spoken of. We already are saved in spirit. So when is that? Obviously the Rapture.

As usual and expected absolutely nothing to do with the yo yo theory. Do you consider that honest discussion?

Actually, I think you are not trying to be honest here. You'd rather engage in petty insults than seriously consider the arguments.

The above indicates not just that Christ comes a "2nd time," but also that the thought is Christ is coming "again." He is going to be glorified "again." He is going to see his disciples "again." At one point he meant that he would see his disciples after his resurrection. But there is another sense that he will see them again *in his glory.*

 

[dad]

The 2nd Coming is indicated as the Hope of Israel, the coming of Messiah for Salvation. We all know Jesus initially came in his Earthly Ministry to die, to provide an atonement for sin, and to initiate the preaching of the Gospel so that men know of this atonement for sin before final judgment. The Coming of Messiah for Salvation is to deliver those who accepted the Gospel.

Heb 9.28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

As posted in my previous post, that is about the gathering in the air. So if you want to call the Rapture the second coming, fine. I don't because not all will see Him then, just the believers. When He returns to earth with us, every eye will see Him.

Mat 23.39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

That one is about His return to earth when all see Him.

To come "again" is to come a *2nd time.*

No strawmen please. No one questions Jesus coming a second time. The verse in Heb uses that phrase second time and it refers to the Rapture. As long as we are clear about what event we are talking about, that is fine.

John 16.22 So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy.

We see Him at the Rapture. See, it is easy to pinpoint what event is what.

Trouble is, nobody is saying "down is up," except you! That is how you *wish* to characterize those you disagree with. But nobody is saying that.

False. Those espousing the yo yo going up and coming down do exactly that. They confuse down with up!

I do, however, say that when people await the coming of a dignitary, they go out to the gates to meet him when he comes. And when they join him in the procession it can be said that they went to join him in his *coming.* This is the sense in which the saints gather to Jesus in the clouds at his *coming.* They join him in his procession, and this takes place, according to Scripture, "in the twinkling of an eye."

Right the Rapture.

Call Paul "out of his gourd?" We must be glorified by being transformed into Christ's likeness. This happens by our being seized from our earthly existence to join in Christ's heavenly existence so that we may return triumphantly with him.

Right, the hope of ages, the gathering together to Him in the air.
It is not honest to pretend that anyone suggested Paul was wrong in saying we will be transformed.

The idea is not "going up" so much as being "transformed by heaven."

Says you. The bible says we will go up in the air. First the dead believers in Jesus and then those who are still alive in their bodies. We all are transformed to be like Him in a new immortal body.

You dwell on an earthly process, as in a travel itinerary, trying to work out the details of travel to heaven.

No, nothing remotely similar to that. I do not consider the twinkling of an eye gathering in the air to be a 'process'!

This is purely a distraction from the point, which is that in order to join with Christ in his earthly inheritance we must 1st be transformed by heaven.

He does change us for a reason. Not sure why you are so hung up on inheritances.

We must return from the place where Christ presently reigns, so that we may return with him. And it only takes a second for us to be transformed in heaven and return with him.

The air we meet in is not called heaven is it? Why do you call it that? Heaven is where the Father lives and Jesus and the saints etc. If Jesus is BRINGING saints to the Rapture why would we think they are brought TO heaven itself to meet in heaven with us?? Your yo yo theory is inconsistent.

It takes place "like lightning." Don't get bogged down with "gourds." Those are your thoughts--not God's thoughts.

That depends on what 'it' is! You claiming the great long awaited marriage celebration and supper of the Lamb happens less than a second is what is strange. Then your having all of us rushed down to earth is less than a second as well! Totally made up. What the bible says is that it will be fast being raised up into the air. The rest you made up.

 

[dad]

There is no need for God to say "second coming" because HE irrefutably implied it from Genesis, thru the Prophets, the Gospel, the Apostles and finally Revelation.

There is no doubt He comes a second time. The issue is that you conflate that event where He comes for us with the event where He comes all the way to earth with us!

We who know and love the TRUTH, fear His Authority so that we do not add to His words nor deny them.

Except your yo yo theory is laughable and absolutely unsupportable by Scripture.

pre-trib theory has not a single scripture that supports it AND it violates the commandments of God

How so?

Simplicity in Christ = if pre-trib rapture were true, HE would of spoke it and we would easily be able to find it and quote it.

He did. You just can't understand because you crazy glued events together in a wild frenzied attempt to make the bible be what you want it to. I prefer to try and see what is actually said.

 

[dad]

Actually, I think you are not trying to be honest here. You'd rather engage in petty insults than seriously consider the arguments.

The argument was that the only time second time is used that anyone posted here so far the context is the Rapture! Funny you find that insulting. I find the yo yo theory insulting to the intelligence as well as to the spirit and written word of God.

The above indicates not just that Christ comes a "2nd time," but also that the thought is Christ is coming "again."

This is news? The issue is that some conflate the coming for us to take us up with the return to earth with us where we all come down. I guess it was too hard to deal with the concepts of up and down?

He is going to be glorified "again." He is going to see his disciples "again." At one point he meant that he would see his disciples after his resurrection. But there is another sense that he will see them again *in his glory.*

All that happens when we are gathered in the air. When we all come back, it is clobberin time! Not marrying ot party time.

 

[amigo de christo]

There is no need for God to say "second coming" because HE irrefutably implied it from Genesis, thru the Prophets, the Gospel, the Apostles and finally Revelation.

We who know and love the TRUTH, fear His Authority so that we do not add to His words nor deny them.

pre-trib theory has not a single scripture that supports it AND it violates the commandments of God

Simplicity in Christ = if pre-trib rapture were true, HE would of spoke it and we would easily be able to find it and quote it.

They all knew it was a one time deal . Not two comings , ONE COMING and ya better be ready .
Tribulation cometh and it comes against the lambs in the land and it comes SOON .

 

[amigo de christo]

There is no need for God to say "second coming" because HE irrefutably implied it from Genesis, thru the Prophets, the Gospel, the Apostles and finally Revelation.

We who know and love the TRUTH, fear His Authority so that we do not add to His words nor deny them.

pre-trib theory has not a single scripture that supports it AND it violates the commandments of God

Simplicity in Christ = if pre-trib rapture were true, HE would of spoke it and we would easily be able to find it and quote it.

The signs are all around . The forest is here . but many see only the trees and cannot discern the forest .
Great tribulation cometh against the saints and many will betray many . Many will sell out .
many will hold to the hopes of this life and of this world . CBDC is for real and SOON every lamb
that does not conform will see tribulations . Fear them not . Fear them not . Fear them not .
For not only is it given unto us to BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS , but also to SUFFER FOR HIS NAME SAKE .
SOMETHING MANY NO LONGER BELEIVE

 

[Marvelloustime]

The signs are all around . The forest is here . but many see only the trees and cannot discern the forest .
Great tribulation cometh against the saints and many will betray many . Many will sell out .
many will hold to the hopes of this life and of this world . CBDC is for real and SOON every lamb
that does not conform will see tribulations . Fear them not . Fear them not . Fear them not .
For not only is it given unto us to BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS , but also to SUFFER FOR HIS NAME SAKE .
SOMETHING MANY NO LONGER BELEIVE

Brother is spotted. Let the Lord be praised.

 

[David in NJ]

There is no doubt He comes a second time. The issue is that you conflate that event where He comes for us with the event where He comes all the way to earth with us!


Except your yo yo theory is laughable and absolutely unsupportable by Scripture.



How so?


He did. You just can't understand because you crazy glued events together in a wild frenzied attempt to make the bible be what you want it to. I prefer to try and see what is actually said.

You cannot post a single scripture that speaks of a pre-trib rapture because none exist in the Holy Scriptures.

You should never speak as if you know when you have no authoritative scripture.

That makes you a false prophet = speaking what God never said was truth.

Do you really want to stand before the LORD with that sin on your tongue?

You need to be 1000% certain that when you speak of His Coming, that it only speaks of His words and not yours.

JESUS words: Matthew ch24

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The Apostles words: Acts ch2
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord
will be saved.’

 

[Randy Kluth]

As posted in my previous post, that is about the gathering in the air. So if you want to call the Rapture the second coming, fine. I don't because not all will see Him then, just the believers. When He returns to earth with us, every eye will see Him.

I was responding to your dismissal of any Scripture reference to a *2nd* Coming. Yes, Postribbers like myself see the 2nd Coming and the Rapture of the Church as a single event, the "2nd Coming."

Probably the foremost Postrib Teacher in our generation is now-deceased George E. Ladd, who wrote a book entitled, "The Blessed Hope." The title was predicated on the biblical mandate for Christians to expect the *2nd Coming,* and not a Pretrib Rapture. The "Blessed Hope" comes from a passage that utilized the Greek word for "appearance" that many Pretribbers had claimed applies only to the 2nd Coming. I recommend his book very much. When I went through my own personal struggle on this topic, I turned to this book for help.

No, nothing remotely similar to that. I do not consider the twinkling of an eye gathering in the air to be a 'process'!

Good, because that was the problem I was having with your arguments. They all seemed to be "process" arguments. How can "up be down?" How can a marriage supper in heaven be a marriage supper on earth, and how can they take place in a second of time? These are "process arguments." They ignore what these things are, which if understood, renders the process arguments irrelevant. Even better, you can begin to understand what the arguments really are.

He does change us for a reason. Not sure why you are so hung up on inheritances.

Not hung up on inheritances. Christ was "hung up" apparently when he told the meek they could expect to "inherit the earth?" And God must've been "hung up" when He wasted time telling Abraham his distant descendants could still count on having a nation on earth, free of further oppression? The Prophets apparently wasted their time promising the national salvation of Israel, with a final deliverance from all their enemies? This was an "inheritance" none of them should've been concerned about?

You don't inherit heaven. You inherit the earth. What you get from heaven is Christ who presently lives in heaven. You get your immortality from him in heaven so that you may share in his inheritance in his Kingdom on the earth.

The air we meet in is not called heaven is it?

Sure it is!

Why do you call it that? Heaven is where the Father lives and Jesus and the saints etc. If Jesus is BRINGING saints to the Rapture why would we think they are brought TO heaven itself to meet in heaven with us?? Your yo yo theory is inconsistent.

It isn't if I think the "air" is "heaven!" You are applying a different definition to terms as I use them, and then arguing against them. I never denied the "air" is "heaven," as you do. Then that would indeed be inconsistent of me!

That depends on what 'it' is! You claiming the great long awaited marriage celebration and supper of the Lamb happens less than a second is what is strange. Then your having all of us rushed down to earth is less than a second as well! Totally made up. What the bible says is that it will be fast being raised up into the air. The rest you made up.

We are transformed in an instant--the Bible says that--not me! What I'm saying is that this transformation takes place, explaining why we are "rushed up" to heaven. We are literally "seized" out of our carnal, earthly existence to enjoy the start of our immortality. This transformation takes place *in an instant," according to Paul. Why don't you agree with him?

 

[dad]

You cannot post a single scripture that speaks of a pre-trib rapture because none exist in the Holy Scriptures.

The ones that do you reject because of your yo yo theory. The only problem is that you can what is what and what speaks of what. Don't blame me.

You should never speak as if you know when you have no authoritative scripture.

You should not reject authoritative scripture using discombobulated random thoughts and verses as if they gave you some sort of authority. You have no more authority than Mickey Mouse! Your mistaking down from up and shoving the marriage supper, the Rapture and second coming into some imaginary split second event has less Merit than Jack and the Beanstalk!

That makes you a false prophet = speaking what God never said was truth.

We can add false accuser of the saints to your impressive resume.

Do you really want to stand before the LORD with that sin on your tongue?

Not being deluded with weak and foolish fables and wild cartoon stories is not a sin. It is a prerequisite for a believer! We need to be able to call a Mickey a Mickey and up up and down down. I might add to that be able to call a man a man and a woman a woman.

You need to be 1000% certain that when you speak of His Coming, that it only speaks of His words and not yours.

This coming from a yo yo theory expositor? You might as well call certain uncertain!

JESUS words: Matthew ch24

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is news? What did you think happened when He returns to earth? Did you think He would leave all the multitudes of new tribulation believers to die? It is amazing how you spam verses as if they supported your made up yo yo nonsense.

The Apostles words: Acts ch2
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord
will be saved.’

Please point out the section here that says down is up? Or that says anything at all about the yo yo theory? Do you really think spamming verses that you don't even know what the mean props up your wholly invented cartoon theory?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The argument was that the only time second time is used that anyone posted here so far the context is the Rapture! Funny you find that insulting. I find the yo yo theory insulting to the intelligence as well as to the spirit and written word of God.

I find it strange, but understandable, that you, who regularly uses arguments by insult, to deny that I should find it "insulting." I'm not insulted if you wish to caricature something as "illogical" if you frame the argument in that way. My problem is that you're ignoring how the arguments are really being delivered, and continue to insult them anyway.

A transformation in an instant may appear "illogical" to a man of the world. His reason is provoked by something that is obviously supernatural.

But I'm not posing, in this, anything illogical for Christians who believe in the supernatural, nor am I trying to get around simple logic by posing something that is obviously illogical. You say I'm declaring "up is down"--a "yo yo theory." I haven't done that. You can insult a "yo yo theory" all day long, and try to make that stick.

But it doesn't stick, because it's just you insulting things instead of trying to understand them. As I said, a delegation goes out to meet a dignitary who is coming in order to join that dignitary in his procession. There is nothing "insulting" or "illogical" about this. You just ignore the argument, and continue to argue by insult.

This is news? The issue is that some conflate the coming for us to take us up with the return to earth with us where we all come down. I guess it was too hard to deal with the concepts of up and down?

I rest my case...

All that happens when we are gathered in the air. When we all come back, it is clobberin time! Not marrying ot party time.

Well, that is a good point, and one that interests me, despite our disagreement. I do recognize that Christ comes back, a "2nd time," to defeat Antichrist. But he also comes back to have his Marriage Supper with us, his glorified Church. So what takes place 1st?

I think we are caught up to be glorified 1st so that we may return with him to defeat the Antichrist. I think it is simultaneous. How long does it take for Christ to defeat and imprison the Antichrist? Have you ever watched "Bambi vs Godzilla?" I wouldn't stick around for the credits!

So I believe Christ comes back in the same instant in which we are glorified, so that we return with him, who appears as fast as "lightning." Antichrist is instantly roasted, and we are instantly beginning to experience what "the inheritance of the earth" is like. The start of this celebration is called the "Marriage Supper."

 

[dad]

I was responding to your dismissal of any Scripture reference to a *2nd* Coming. Yes, Postribbers like myself see the 2nd Coming and the Rapture of the Church as a single event, the "2nd Coming."

Thanks for admitting that. I guess we can toss in the great marriage supper of the Lamb with that for the trifecta! Then we can wave away the millennium as false as many who preach the yo yo theory also do! How about you, do you believe there is a real 1000 year reign by us after we return to earth or not?

Probably the foremost Postrib Teacher in our generation is now-deceased George E. Ladd, who wrote a book entitled, "The Blessed Hope." The title was predicated on the biblical mandate for Christians to expect the *2nd Coming,* and not a Pretrib Rapture.

Never heard of him thankfully. He conflates the Rapture with the return to earth from the getgo! No need to look any further.

The "Blessed Hope" comes from a passage that utilized the Greek word for "appearance" that many Pretribbers had claimed applies only to the 2nd Coming. I recommend his book very much. When I went through my own personal struggle on this topic, I turned to this book for help.

My condolences.

Good, because that was the problem I was having with your arguments. They all seemed to be "process" arguments. How can "up be down?" How can a marriage supper in heaven be a marriage supper on earth, and how can they take place in a second of time? These are "process arguments." They ignore what these things are, which if understood, renders the process arguments irrelevant. Even better, you can begin to understand what the arguments really are.

A sequence of events is not a process. You cannot call the transformation of our bodies at the Rapture in a moment a process, but it is part of a sequence of events!

Not hung up on inheritances. Christ was "hung up" apparently when he told the meek they could expect to "inherit the earth?"

Strawman argument. He never equated that to a yo yo theory argument! Of course we will inherit the earth and rewards and a crown etc. That does not mean the marriage of the Lamb is not real and just something that all happens in a moment along with the return of Christ and the Rapture!

You don't inherit heaven. You inherit the earth. What you get from heaven is Christ who presently lives in heaven. You get your immortality from him in heaven so that you may share in his inheritance in his Kingdom on the earth.

Who said anything about inheriting heaven? I was not the one even mentioning inheriting stuff! That would be you. Do we need to meditate on the difference between you and me now?

Sure it is!

It isn't if I think the "air" is "heaven!" You are applying a different definition to terms as I use them, and then arguing against them. I never denied the "air" is "heaven," as you do. Then that would indeed be inconsistent of me!

Then when we go up into the air, is that heaven or not in your yo yo scheme?

We are transformed in an instant--the Bible says that--not me!

I know. Why state the obvious? That is when we go up into the air to meet Him. Not when we come down to earth to rule! What is so confusing about up and down for you?

What I'm saying is that this transformation takes place, explaining why we are "rushed up" to heaven.

I thought you just said the air was not heaven? Is this something we can pile up on your inconsistency pile or are you flip flopping, or..??

We are literally "seized" out of our carnal, earthly existence to enjoy the start of our immortality. This transformation takes place *in an instant," according to Paul. Why don't you agree with him?

I do. We are raised incorruptible in an instant at the Rapture, that is not what we disagree on. Be honest.

 

[dad]

I find it strange, but understandable, that you, who regularly uses arguments by insult, to deny that I should find it "insulting." I'm not insulted if you wish to caricature something as "illogical" if you frame the argument in that way. My problem is that you're ignoring how the arguments are really being delivered, and continue to insult them anyway.

What is to ignore? Do you not lump the marriage supper and Rapture and return of Jesus to the earth into one event?? If so, that warrants exposure.

A transformation in an instant may appear "illogical" to a man of the world. His reason is provoked by something that is obviously supernatural.

No one questions that. What are you talking about? The problem is you take three events and stuff them into that same instant!

But I'm not posing, in this, anything illogical for Christians who believe in the supernatural, nor am I trying to get around simple logic by posing something that is obviously illogical. You say I'm declaring "up is down"--a "yo yo theory." I haven't done that. You can insult a "yo yo theory" all day long, and try to make that stick.

Be honest. Do you claim that the believers are taken up into the air, and then the marriage supper and the return to earth happen all in the same moment? If so, that is the yo yo theory in living color! If not be clear. Wiggling will not work here.

But it doesn't stick, because it's just you insulting things instead of trying to understand them. As I said, a delegation goes out to meet a dignitary who is coming in order to join that dignitary in his procession. There is nothing "insulting" or "illogical" about this. You just ignore the argument, and continue to argue by insult.

Yes there is! You are saying we go up like a yo yo on a string to meet Jesus as He is on His way down, and then come down with Him. All in a flash. That is unsound. That insults out great union in heaven called the marriage feast. It belittles it. It ignores that we all leave FROM HEAVEN when we come with Jesus back down to the earth. Your argument is crystal clear.

I rest my case...

Well, that is a good point, and one that interests me, despite our disagreement. I do recognize that Christ comes back, a "2nd time," to defeat Antichrist. But he also comes back to have his Marriage Supper with us, his glorified Church. So what takes place 1st?

The thingie in heaven takes place first because that is where both we and Jesus come FROM to come down to the earth. Heavens opens and down we come. That does not fit a lighting fast little yo yo trip.

I think we are caught up to be glorified 1st so that we may return with him to defeat the Antichrist.

He does that alone. We are spectators at first. He does not need our help! We are there because we will always be with Him where He is and He is coming down to earth at that time. He also will have us rule with Him when He takes care of business. That is not the time for a feast and part and getting to know you session! That is the time nations are dashed to pieces and the wicked killed.

I think it is simultaneous. How long does it take for Christ to defeat and imprison the Antichrist? Have you ever watched "Bambi vs Godzilla?" I wouldn't stick around for the credits!

I don't know! He destroys all the wicked. He takes over the world. He tosses the antichist into the lake of fire. We are not told how long so why assume it is all instant? One possibility I see in Scripture is that it takes many days! Remember how in Daniel we are told the end comes in 1269 days? Later we are given another time period of an extra 30 days and then another of 15 more days if I recall! What are these for?

So I believe Christ comes back in the same instant in which we are glorified, so that we return to him, who appears as fast as "lightning."

To be clear then that yo yo is real fast in your theory!

Antichrist is instantly roasted,

Once Jesus gets hold of him, sure. The thing is He does more than one thing when He returns, such as have His feet land on the mount of Olives. So if you claim that in less than a second after Jesus returns the leader of the world is tossed into the lake, we need some proof.

and we are instantly beginning to experience what "the inheritance of the earth" is like. The start of this celebration is called the "Marriage Supper."

That is opinion. The bible talks about the event of the supper in a scene in heaven. Later, heaven opens and we all come down to planet earth.

 

[David in NJ]

The ones that do you reject because of your yo yo theory. The only problem is that you can what is what and what speaks of what. Don't blame me.


You should not reject authoritative scripture using discombobulated random thoughts and verses as if they gave you some sort of authority. You have no more authority than Mickey Mouse! Your mistaking down from up and shoving the marriage supper, the Rapture and second coming into some imaginary split second event has less Merit than Jack and the Beanstalk!


We can add false accuser of the saints to your impressive resume.


Not being deluded with weak and foolish fables and wild cartoon stories is not a sin. It is a prerequisite for a believer! We need to be able to call a Mickey a Mickey and up up and down down. I might add to that be able to call a man a man and a woman a woman.



This coming from a yo yo theory expositor? You might as well call certain uncertain!


This is news? What did you think happened when He returns to earth? Did you think He would leave all the multitudes of new tribulation believers to die? It is amazing how you spam verses as if they supported your made up yo yo nonsense.



Please point out the section here that says down is up? Or that says anything at all about the yo yo theory? Do you really think spamming verses that you don't even know what the mean props up your wholly invented cartoon theory?

no scripture from you

just blah blah blah

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As posted in my previous post, that is about the gathering in the air. So if you want to call the Rapture the second coming, fine.

We should call it that because scripture does.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Which coming of the Lord is this? Obviously, not the first one. So, that means this is referring to the second "coming of the Lord". So, it's not about what we want to call it, it's about what it is and what scripture calls it.

I don't because not all will see Him then, just the believers. When He returns to earth with us, every eye will see Him.

That one is about His return to earth when all see Him.

Where does scripture differentiate between a future coming of the Lord that is not to the earth and a future coming of the Lord that is to the earth?

 

[Keraz]

A lot of Christian people believe that there will be a "pre-tribulation rapture”, that is: they believe that before the beast of Revelation takes over, makes war on the saints, and demands his mark on each person's body, all Christians will be "raptured".

The word rapture and the idea of a removal of living people to heaven is not in the Bible. Jesus says it is impossible. John 3:13

The Bible does not teach a pre-tribulation rapture. It teaches tribulation. Because these people believe that they will not be here for the tribulation, they are not spiritually or physically preparing themselves, or their children, for what is to come.

They cannot see what is happening before their very eyes. They are so locked into deception that they cannot see nor hear. Not only are they deceived, they condemn anyone who does not believe in a pretribulation rapture.

The nature of deception is that you really believe what is false and that you disbelieve what is true. The only way that someone can come out of deception is if they really love the truth. If someone truly loves the scriptures, he will change his beliefs to conform to the scriptures when he sees that he is wrong. Unfortunately, most people feel that they have too much to lose by changing their false belief system. What if a dispensationalist preacher accepted the truth that he has been preaching a lie? Do you think his preacher friends will congratulate him for leaving deception? Do you think his dispensationalist congregation will be happy with him? There is a good chance that he will lose his tenure and position. Because many love the praise of men more than the praise of God, they will stay in deception rather lose their standing in their community. They cannot even afford to think that their beliefs may be wrong. You have to really love the truth to run this race.

Dispensationalism and the rapture is a heresy taught all across the face of the earth in Bible colleges and seminaries. It is preached and taught from pulpits, in books, and videos. If you go to a dispensationalist church, the people may hand you an armload of books to read about dispensationalist doctrines. They will invite you to sit through their biased Bible studies and maybe have you watch dispensationalist teachers on videos or in conferences. They will use all kinds of sophistry in their sermons. They will take scriptures out of context and make them infer a meaning that simply isn’t there. They will say that you are not a "Bible-believer" if you refuse to believe in dispensationalism. They will also tell you that you have to, "rightly divide the word of truth" as if the scriptures will lead you to dispensationalist conclusions. Then they may send more books home with you to read. If you remain unconvinced, they may berate you, and maybe even call you a heretic and will consign you to the hell they think is to come onto the earth.

All this is really sad, because the truth of God’s Plans for His people, are for their wellbeing and He is ready to pour out His blessings upon every Christian who stands firm in their faith during the testing time to come.
The Lord will protect His Christian peoples, NOT remove them.

 

[Keturah]

REVELATION 3:22 KJV
****"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

PSALMS 85:8 KJV
*****"I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them NOT TURN AGAIN to folly."

REVELATION 22:17 KJV
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, COME. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".

REVELATION 2:7 KJV
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

REVELATION 2:17 KJV
"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

8 times in the first few chapters even in Revelations is this said " he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith...........

If we live & walk in the Spirit, let us HEAR WHAT HE SAYS!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks for admitting that. I guess we can toss in the great marriage supper of the Lamb with that for the trifecta! Then we can wave away the millennium as false as many who preach the yo yo theory also do! How about you, do you believe there is a real 1000 year reign by us after we return to earth or not?

Yes, dad, I believe in the "great trifecta!" And I also believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. For glorified saints it will be but the beginning of an eternal inheritance of the earth. For mortals who continue on the earth as such, it is one more opportunity to fulfill what God promised, a Kingdom of God on earth.

Never heard of him thankfully. He conflates the Rapture with the return to earth from the getgo! No need to look any further.

Ladd is exceptional and well-received, a NT scholar. And he is at the very top of authority on modern eschatology. What I liked about Ladd was his amazingly "Christian" ability to present his own view together with alternate views in such a fair way that one would have to decide for himself which view to take. Usually, an author dresses up his own view to look like the obvious choice! Even if you don't agree with him, it's rewarding to read him. You may find your own view fairly represented!

A sequence of events is not a process. You cannot call the transformation of our bodies at the Rapture in a moment a process, but it is part of a sequence of events!

You're not understanding my argument. The "process" I refer to is your concern about the "yo yo"--how can something go up and down at the same time? That is a process. How can a Marriage Feast in heaven take place at the same time on earth? That is a process--how does one get from one place to another at the same time?

I'm not calling the transformation to immortality a "process" because it isn't. It is instantaneous, in a "twinkling of an eye." That was my point! My point was, stop being concerned about the process of getting something from A to B when that is easily explained.

How is that easily explained? It is not explained as a process of mechanically lifting something from A to B, from earth to heaven--it is instantaneous. I never said A goes to B and B goes to A in any other way than as "instantaneous," ie in any means describing a process of travel. There is no mechanical means by which A can got to B and B can go to A at the same time through mechanical means!

Strawman argument. He never equated that to a yo yo theory argument! Of course we will inherit the earth and rewards and a crown etc. That does not mean the marriage of the Lamb is not real and just something that all happens in a moment along with the return of Christ and the Rapture!

I wasn't using a strawman argument--just responding to the validity of focusing on inheritances! You seemed to demean that. And inheritances are essential when considering biblical prophecy, which focuses on our inheritance of God's Kingdom on earth. That's why we must come back with Christ in glorified bodies to inherit with him the earth. And we must go up to heaven to begin with to get our glorified bodies so that we may do precisely that!

All this is explained not as a process, but as a miracle. It is never explained how we get new bodies--only that we must be caught up to heaven to get them from Christ. And we get them *as he comes back* so that we may participate with him in his return, in his inheritance.

We are a delegation going out to meet the dignitary in the air so that we may possess the earth together with him. None of this has a thing to do with a mechanical process of moving us from earth to the air, and from the air back to the earth--your "yo yo theory."

The whole thing is instantaneous--a yo yo is *not* instantaneous. That's why I said you should avoid "process" and just believe Scriptures, which indicate this really is going to happen.

Then when we go up into the air, is that heaven or not in your yo yo scheme?

It is not my "yo yo scheme," but your characterization. We meet the dignitary and return with him. That is a "yo yo?" What a crass representation of a Scriptural event!

Yes, the "air" is "heaven." Jesus comes with the clouds, and is descending *from heaven* to the earth. We meet him in his descent to the earth after instantly being transformed into his glorious image. It is *instantaneous*--not a "yo yo!" We instantly appear with him in the clouds, and emerge on earth.

I thought you just said the air was not heaven? Is this something we can pile up on your inconsistency pile or are you flip flopping, or..??

Where did I say the "air" was not "heaven?" Perhaps you have me mixed up with someone else? Not my problem, dad.