Pay to Pray eRosary from the Vatican

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Marymog

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By believing in his work on the cross. It is a metaphor, it is not literal.
Hi David,

Hmmmm.....so eating his flesh and drinking his blood is the same as "believing in his work on the cross"? Fascinating!! When did that teaching become prevalent in Christianity? I have never heard of it.

When Jesus gave his Apostles the bread/wine and said "This is my body/blood....take and eat" he was using a metaphor then also?

And when Paul asked the rhetorical question, "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? he meant it as a metaphor also?

We have historical writings showing that the 1st century Christians did not take it as a metaphor. Why should I believe you and not them?
 
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Marymog

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We do know if we are saved. Why do you think we don't?

Interesting. There is nothing that indicates a temporal punishment of sins. The punishment for sin is death and eternity in hell.
Hi David,

Why do I think that....because that is what scripture says.

I guess you have run the race and won? I am still working out my own salvation with fear and trembling....Sound familiar?

Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain.”

Scripture kind of throws a wrench in your theory.....:rolleyes:
 

Marymog

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Actually my Bible was freely given to me. Thanks. That being said does it cost to manufacture? Yes. But guess what, the church could eat those costs and give the app away for free just as many churches give Bibles away for free.
Sooooo it's still not free if someone is eating the cost....just sayin'
 

epostle

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I think I understand what you are saying.

There is a similar teaching, but different, the earliest reference I've found was Ray Steadman, I think, that the crucifixion of Christ was "an eternal event".
Ray Steadman is wrong. There is no suffering in heaven.

Lambert Dolphin wrote much the same thing, and I could Find his quote:
"But in another sense, if we could step into eternity and view an eternal being such as the Son of God experiencing all things - if we could see things from the vantage point of heaven-we would perceive that a part of the eternal God must suffer forever, outside of time, because of human sin."

Six Hours in Eternity: Physics and the Bible: – Lambert Dolphin – Koinonia House

But this idea Christ suffers in any longer duration than during that particular time in earth's history I find to be contradicted by the Bible.
So do I. Jesus died once in temporal time. I've said that three times now. Lambert Dolphin doesn't understand how the sacrifice of consecrated Bread and Wine is one and the same sacrifice as His death on Calvary. Neither do most Christians. What Lambert Dolphin says is false.
Jesus does not suffer forever, neither does He suffer often.
Agreed. He suffered and died once. He offers Himself to the Father in the form of Bread and Wine as an eternal sacrifice, because His Priesthood is forever. His Priesthood isn't a symbol either.

Much love!
 

epostle

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We do know if we are saved. Why do you think we don't?
This is a standard false dichotomy prevalent in Protestantism. We Catholics know we are saved by moral certitude, AND if we persevere to the end, as Paul repeatedly says. But we can be infallibly certain if we are saved until after we are dead. NOT BEFORE.
Interesting. There is nothing that indicates a temporal punishment of sins.
Common sense says that temporal sins demands restitution, or repentance is meaningless. If I throw a rock through your window, I have committed a sin. I can go to confession, be forgiven and absolved, but Jesus doesn't pay for the window. That's my responsibility. There is no getting around it. I have to pay the CONSEQUENCES of my sin, in this life or the next.
God, in His mercy and justice, has provided a way for paying for all the metaphorical "rocks" that I never got around to paying for. (hay and straw that Paul says gets burned off, a metaphor for purification). He also accepts our prayers as penance (in this life) when direct restitution is not possible, because He loves us. The CONSEQUENCES of sin still demands divine justice. This is why JBFA is so absurd. Not that many of us die in a perfect state of sanctifying grace.
The punishment for sin is death and eternity in hell.
Agreed, but for God to throw us into hell over minor sins makes Him a monster.
 
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epostle

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What makes it so?
And was that so for the passover dinner before Jesus died?
This is not for baby Christians. If for some reason you can't access this video, tell me and I'll find some text that explains it.

 

marks

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This is not for baby Christians. If for some reason you can't access this video, tell me and I'll find some text that explains it.

Not really into watching videos. Can you summarize?

As far as who can handle what, truth is truth, and otherwise it's not, that's all.

But my questions are simple.

Much love!
 

marks

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Agreed, but for God to throw us into hell over minor sins makes Him a monster.
If you aren't holy like God is, how would you expect to live with Him? And if not with Him, where else?
 

Philip James

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The Lord's supper is for US to remember His death. It is for US to remember.

to remember yes, and to show forth His death:

For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes

to re-present that sacrifice for all to see. We are brought to the foot of the cross, standing there with Mary, John and all our brothers and sisters,
uniting our praise and thanksgiving with that ONE sacrifice of Christ.

and to share in His resurrection:

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

It is not to unite us to Jesus, to God, as we are already united with God. It is not to unite us to each other, as we are already united to each other. All who are born again, all who are in Christ.

Paul would seem to disagree: Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

We partake of the ONE Bread that Jesus broke and gave to the apostles, of the One cup that is the New Covenant in His blood.

It is not ordinary bread that we receive but the Living Bread come down from heaven, Jesus Christ.

Do you ever do this at home with your family/friends? Does God approve if you do?

If you are asking me: if after saying Grace have I taken bread, broken it and given it to my family, calling it the Body of Christ;
Then no. I have not. And neither could I. For it would not be.
I have not received the authority to preside over the celebration of the Eucharist, and for me to claim for myself the right to do so would be to fall into the rebellion of Korah.

Except I don't separate from you. You separate from me. Then you attempt to project that to me. But that is false.

How so?

Peace!
 

Philip James

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Faith alone in Christ alone.

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so shall the Son of Man be lifted up.

Believing on Jesus, just like looking at the serpent, and God redeems us. And everything we have, we have in Christ.

Much love!

What do you mean by 'believing on Jesus?
 

marks

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I have not received the authority to preside over the celebration of the Eucharist, and for me to claim for myself the right to do so would be to fall into the rebellion of Korah.
And there you have it. You cannot participate unless your priesthood allows it. Not good.

Your priests shut you out, and you shut me out.
 

Philip James

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He offers Himself to the Father in the form of Bread and Wine as an eternal sacrifice, because His Priesthood is forever.

For it is testified: "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."

Peace be with you!
 

Philip James

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And there you have it. You cannot participate unless your priesthood allows it. Not good.

Your priests shut you out, and you shut me out.

The Church from the very beginning reserved presiding over the celebration of the Eucharist to the bishop, or to one of whom the bishop has approved (ordained).

All the apostolic churches witness to this,

as does Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch circa 100 AD :

[But] shun divisions, as the beginning of evils.
Do ye all follow your bishop, as Jesus Christ followed
the Father, and the presbytery as the Apostles; and to
the deacons pay respect, as to God's commandment. Let
no man do aught of things pertaining to the Church
apart from the bishop. Let that be held a valid
eucharist which is under the bishop or one to whom he
shall have committed it.
8:2 Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let
the people be; even as where Jesus may be, there is
the universal Church. It is not lawful apart from the
bishop either to baptize or to hold a love-feast; but
whatsoever he shall approve, this is well-pleasing also
to God; that everything which ye do may be sure and
valid.

to the Smyrnaeans chapter 8

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans (Lightfoot translation)


If you can find me a 2000 year old Christian community that says otherwise, please share.

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

According to you, I've never even partaken the Lord's supper. Isn't that so?

I don't know if you have or have not. It entirely depends on whether you partook in a valid celebration or not.


Peace be with you
 

epostle

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If you aren't holy like God is, how would you expect to live with Him?
That's whole point of purification. Nothing unclean can get into heaven. If you haven't got that verse memorized by now, it could be due to a mental deficiency. I avoid the theological term "Purga**** because it always entails false presuppositions. Where in scripture does "unclean" mean hell bound? Normal people wash their unclean hands before they eat. It doesn't mean they will never eat if they fail to wash their hands. If they habitually disregard the law, they could fall away. That's what the Day of Atonement is for. The Jews had it right a long time ago. Wash before you eat. Are our souls any different??? The problem came when the rituals became religion for the sake of religion itself, obscuring the essence of the law.

In the Parable of the Publican, Luke 18:9-14, the guy at the back KNEW he was unclean. The guy at the front bragged about his holiness, because he had faith alone. Who was more justified??? The guy at the back, obviously. That should reduce JBFA to another Jewish scruple.

There is nothing in the parable that suggests the unclean sinner was hell bound. What would happen if he dropped dead on his way to the synagogue? In your "turn or burn" scenario he would be hell bound. He would need to be made clean, he doesn't arrive clean. He wouldn't deserve eternal damnation.
And if not with Him, where else?
That's the whole point of 1 Corinthians 3!!!
Not really into watching videos. Can you summarize?
Short answer:
“It is finished.” These words spoken by Jesus in his final moments on the cross have perplexed scholars for hundreds of years. What was finished and how does “it” relate to the Eucharist, the Passover meal, Christ’s Passion, and our own suffering as Christians?

Long answer:
Protestants are fond of saying that Catholics reject "the finished work of Christ" since Catholics reject Salvation by Faith Alone. A popular text they appeal to is John 19:30, which mentions the final words of Jesus on the Cross, "It is finished!" By this, they suggest Christ did everything necessary for our salvation, that He paid everything, all that's left is for us to believe. To deny this, they say, is to deny the Gospel. While at first this might sound convincing, it's an unfortunate and serious distortion of a beautiful text.

The first thing I'd suggest people think about is that Jesus said "It is finished" before He actually died and before He Resurrected. If someone were to push this too far in the wrong way, it would end up saying the Resurrection and even the Death itself wasn't necessary. (Note: Calvinists technically deny the sufficiency of the Cross, they just don't realize it.) Given this, there needs to be a more careful approach to the text.

What many don't know is that there is actually a very good explanation to this text that can be discerned simply by examining the context:
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.” 29 A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Notice that the focus of this event was not about Jesus paying the full penalty for sin, but rather about fulfilling an Old Testament prophecy. It was when Jesus received the sour wine (vinegar) that He spoke these words, fulfilling the set up from verse 28. In fact, the Greek word for "finished" only appears twice in John, in verse 19:28 and 19:30, under the same verbal form (tetelestai), strongly suggesting the two go together. And the context shows that a few other Old Testament prophecies were also going to be fulfilled (John 19:31-37). So it should really be understood as "It is fulfilled," or more traditionally, "It is Consummated."

The "fulfill" ("consummated") reading also makes better sense of the Greek term used (see how it's used in Luke 18:31 and Acts 13:29). In the 26 verses the word appears in, only twice is it used to refer to payment, and even in these two verse it only refers to paying taxes (Mt 17:24; Rom 13:6) and not some full payment. In virtually every other verse it's used, it means "fulfill" or "conclude". Given this, it is absolutely astonishing the way many Protestants will over-reach with this word to make it suggest a financial transaction of "payment in full" and completely ignore the Biblical evidence available.

This is not to suggest that the "It is Consummated" doesn't have a deeper significance than just saying "this one prophecy was fulfilled," but rather that Christ's death is to be understood as the Old Testament said it would happen. For example, Protestants love to point to Jesus on the Cross saying "My God, why have You abandoned me," and claim this verse proves the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. But any alert reader would know Jesus was intoning Psalm 22, which clearly is speaking of David/Jesus being persecuted by enemies and not being rescued (immediately) by God.

This same kind of distortion is happening when Protestants quote "It is finished.": In the case of "I thirst," the cross-reference given for this is Psalm 69:21, which is a Messianic Psalm talking about how David was persecuted and insulted by his fellow Jews and now how Jesus is persecuted and insulted by the Jews. Nothing to do with taking someone's punishment or the Father's wrath being dumped on them.

NICK'S CATHOLIC BLOG: What did Jesus mean by "It is finished"?

As far as who can handle what, truth is truth, and otherwise it's not, that's all.
If I have posted an untruth, I'm confident you will prove it instead of just saying it.
 
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marks

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Hi @epostle ,

So then in essence, "It is finished" is meant to refer to the completion of the OT prophecies, is that what you are saying?

Rather than referring to to the completion of God's word of reconciliation?

Much love!
 

marks

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Psalm 22, interestingly, also points to the finanilty of the cross in bringing rebirth to His people.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Much love!
 
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