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Discussion in 'Community Welcome Center' started by ammuslim, Aug 29, 2007.

  1. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (ammuslim;16695)
    If you don’t mind, what do you mean by saying that most of Jesus’ followers believe in ‘military’ ?
    Most churches support and many trinitarians join the military. I do my best to follow Jesus and Jesus atmost noble teaching is that "love your enemy". It goes along with "love your neighbor as yourself".You don't love your enemy by killing them. I understand you Muslims believe killing your enemy too. Look what you guys both trinitarians and uslims are doing; killing each other using God's name. I don't believe both of you making God and Jesus happy, IMHO.love, hitomi
     
  2. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(ammuslim;16705)
    Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.Wa Alikum Assalam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh, Brother or Sister Ricky.
    I am a brother [​IMG].May God give His rahmah upon you, brother.
    Yeah, this is the best Du’a today, may Allah guide us all to His straight path. Ameen.
    Alhamdulillaah(Praise to Allah) Ameen.
    Originally I am from Egypt, but right now I live in China. How about you?
    I am from Indonesia, and live in Jakarta (Capital City of Indonesia Country).
    Wa Alukum Assalam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh. Salamammuslim
    Peace be upon you brother.Ricky WWallahu a'lam.
     
  3. ammuslim

    ammuslim New Member

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    Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
    Most churches support and many trinitarians join the military. I do my best to follow Jesus and Jesus atmost noble teaching is that "love your enemy". It goes along with "love your neighbor as yourself".You don't love your enemy by killing them. I understand you Muslims believe killing your enemy too. Look what you guys both trinitarians and uslims are doing; killing each other using God's name. I don't believe both of you making God and Jesus happy, IMHO.
    Thanks for your clarification, although I would like to add some comments here.We do not believe in killing the peaceful enemies, this is against God’s commandments as believed by Muslims and recorded in their books of authority. We are only encouraged to strive hard to defend Allah’s religion in case somebody intended to destroy it, you can’t live in peace if anti social elements are planning to wipe out that peace. I’ve seen one of the very popular Christian websites that supports my explanation, and if you don’t mind I would like to quote what they’ve said about this matter:
    The Bible says not to kill yet many Christians support the death penaltyEmail: The Bible says it is forbidden to kill, yet many Christians in America support the death penalty and order wars and bombs which kill tens of thousands, yet this is somehow rationalized and an excuse is made as to how this does not violate Christianity, when it plainly does. Response: First of all, the Bible does not say that it is forbidden to kill. The Bible says that it is forbidden to murder. The old the King James translation is unfortunate. For example, God gives us the right of self-defense and sometimes in that self-defense, it is necessary to kill someone. Furthermore, the Bible supports the death penalty as many Old Testament Scriptures clearly state. So, God is not making a mistake by saying do not kill and yet putting people to death via the death penalty.Furthermore, murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. Therefore, in the issue of taking life we must determine whether or not is lawful or not. If a murderer is sentenced to death in a lawful manner via the law of the land, then it is not murder. However, if a person were to rob someone else and kill him in the process, that is not a lawful taking of life and his murder. God never murders because before God, all people are guilty before the holy law that he is given.Finally, it is not a a self-contradiction for a person to condemn murder but believe in the death penalty
    .http://www.carm.org/email/skep_kill.htmYou see, there are plenty of stories in the Bible where God Almighty approved and ordered of killing those who invites the believers to worship other gods besides the One True God, and I don’t think that Jesus pbuh will contradict God of the Old Testament on this matter. And so you have to understand that killing and murder is obviously different things. Also, I would like to give you an example (the same example I’ve given sister Amy on the other thread but she misunderstood it) so I do apologize in advance if you get offended, but it is not my intention at all, its only an example.Let us think for awhile that somebody intended, or attacked your loved ones i.e. daughter, mother, wife, sister etc… will you not at least defend your own people? Or you will just watch that enemy of peace and love him? Will you really love such person? Will you not even fight to death in order to save your loved ones? I hope you are getting my point, loving your enemy, in my opinion is misunderstood by most Christians, you may love the enemy, respect them as long as they are peaceful and don’t show hostility, but the moment they are proving otherwise, we have to stop them by any means. Salamammuslim
     
  4. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Joyful)
    Most churches support and many trinitarians join the military. I do my best to follow Jesus and Jesus atmost noble teaching is that "love your enemy". It goes along with "love your neighbor as yourself".You don't love your enemy by killing them. I understand you Muslims believe killing your enemy too. Look what you guys both trinitarians and uslims are doing; killing each other using God's name. I don't believe both of you making God and Jesus happy, IMHO.love, hitomi
    Joyful, please don't get wrong. We moslem don't want killing anyone, that was forbidden in our teach. But if some of human kind killing moslem, ofcourse we as a moslem must stand for our lives, until they stop killing moslem.So the keyword is DEFENCE.Best regards,Ricky WWallahu a'lam.
     
  5. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimJoyful, please don't get wrong. We moslem don't want killing anyone, that was forbidden in our teach. But if some of human kind killing moslem, ofcourse we as a moslem must stand for our lives, until they stop killing moslem.So the keyword is DEFENCE.
    Yes, I know it very well because trinitrarians are saying the same thing. You guys are both judging each other that your enemies are the evil ones. YHWH is saying vengeance is His. You cannot see this very clear fact. So sad. Love, hitomi
     
  6. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (ammuslim;16714)
    Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.Thanks for your clarification, although I would like to add some comments here.We do not believe in killing the peaceful enemies, this is against God’s commandments as believed by Muslims and recorded in their books of authority. We are only encouraged to strive hard to defend Allah’s religion in case somebody intended to destroy it, you can’t live in peace if anti social elements are planning to wipe out that peace.
    I have been repeating the same but I will again. Your enemy (Trinitarians) are saying the same thing and dont mind killing you either. that's why Jesus is saying to "love your enemy".
    I’ve seen one of the very popular Christian websites that supports my explanation, and if you don’t mind I would like to quote what they’ve said about this matter: .http://www.carm.org/email/skep_kill.htmYou see, there are plenty of stories in the Bible where God Almighty approved and ordered of killing those who invites the believers to worship other gods besides the One True God, and I don’t think that Jesus pbuh will contradict God of the Old Testament on this matter. And so you have to understand that killing and murder is obviously different things. Also, I would like to give you an example (the same example I’ve given sister Amy on the other thread but she misunderstood it) so I do apologize in advance if you get offended, but it is not my intention at all, its only an example.
    In Old Testament time, God directly ordered His people destroy His enemies. God knows exactly what is going on; He knows who is truly evil. but remember this: we humans are so selfish we always think we are the righteouse ones and our enemy is always wrong and evil. that's why Jesus is not appoving judging others by killing your enemy. It is so simple, people.
    Let us think for awhile that somebody intended, or attacked your loved ones i.e. daughter, mother, wife, sister etc… will you not at least defend your own people? Or you will just watch that enemy of peace and love him? Will you really love such person? Will you not even fight to death in order to save your loved ones?
    I already repsonded this one to you too. Are you reading all responses to you? I will repeat again. Of course I will do everything to defend innocent ones if I see it in front of me. But listen carefully; I will do it without killing anyone, it may cost my life also but I will not kill anyone to defend anyone including me and my family. It is so simple locgic.
    I hope you are getting my point, loving your enemy, in my opinion is misunderstood by most Christians, you may love the enemy, respect them as long as they are peaceful and don’t show hostility, but the moment they are proving otherwise, we have to stop them by any means.
    "love your enemy" is very simple to understand but hard to practice. that's why I am saying Jesus is the only one who have such deep love. No other religions teach like Jesus. That's why I am so proud to be His follower and I will practice it.love,hitomi
     
  7. ammuslim

    ammuslim New Member

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    Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.
    I have been repeating the same but I will again. Your enemy (Trinitarians) are saying the same thing and dont mind killing you either. that's why Jesus is saying to "love your enemy".
    I am sorry, but Trinitarians, Atheists, Agnostic, Christians, Jews, etc are NOT OUR ENEMIES, who gives you this idea? I said it plainly that any of the above mentioned groups are to be treated justly and kindly as long as they are peaceful and loving people. So there is no enmity at all just because they are belongs to different faiths and ideologies.
    In Old Testament time, God directly ordered His people destroy His enemies. God knows exactly what is going on; He knows who is truly evil. but remember this: we humans are so selfish we always think we are the righteouse ones and our enemy is always wrong and evil. that's why Jesus is not appoving judging others by killing your enemy. It is so simple, people.
    I don’t get it. Don’t you believe that Jesus pbuh is God? Don’t you believe that he was there during OT time? So you mean to say that OT time God (Jesus) believed in destroying the enemy by killing them, and later on he changed his mind?
    I already repsonded this one to you too. Are you reading all responses to you? I will repeat again. Of course I will do everything to defend innocent ones if I see it in front of me. But listen carefully; I will do it without killing anyone, it may cost my life also but I will not kill anyone to defend anyone including me and my family. It is so simple locgic.
    Ok got your point.
    "love your enemy" is very simple to understand but hard to practice. that's why I am saying Jesus is the only one who have such deep love. No other religions teach like Jesus. That's why I am so proud to be His follower and I will practice it.
    I respect your beliefs, but in my opinion, “love your enemy” teaching is not just difficult, but it is impossible to be practiced. You see one of the great thinkers of his time named Michael Hart wrote a book called “The 100, a ranking of the most influential persons in history” in his book, he dedicated one chapter to Jesus pbuh as one of those great persons in history, and he commented on his teaching, specifically on “love your enemy”, look what he said:
    Does this mean that Jesus had no original ethical ideas? Not at all! A highly distinctive viewpoint is presented in Matthew 5:43-44:Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shall love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you. Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.And a few lines earlier: "...resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."Now, these ideas—which were not a part of the Judaism of Jesus' day, nor of most other religions—are surely among the most remarkable and original ethical ideas ever presented. If they were widely followed, I would have had no hesitation in placing Jesus first in this book.But the truth is that they are not widely followed. In fact, they are not even generally accepted. Most Christians consider the injunction to "Love your enemy" as—at most—an ideal which might be realized in some perfect world, but one which is not a reasonable guide to conduct in the actual world we live in. We do not normally practice it, do not expect others to practice it, and do not teach our children to practice it. Jesus' most distinctive teaching, therefore, remains an intriguing but basically untried suggestion.
    The above is just for your reference, you don’t have to change your mind about something you strongly believe in. Salamammuslim
     
  8. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    =ammuslim;16816]Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.I am sorry, but Trinitarians, Atheists, Agnostic, Christians, Jews, etc are NOT OUR ENEMIES, who gives you this idea? I said it plainly that any of the above mentioned groups are to be treated justly and kindly as long as they are peaceful and loving people. So there is no enmity at all just because they are belongs to different faiths and ideologies.
    Friend, I have been given the information over and over christians have been persecuted by Muslims. and aren't you having what you call "Holy war" right now?
    I don’t get it. Don’t you believe that Jesus pbuh is God? Don’t you believe that he was there during OT time? So you mean to say that OT time God (Jesus) believed in destroying the enemy by killing them, and later on he changed his mind?
    I am Christian and Jesus' follower and His servant but I don't believe Jesus is God. Jesus is son of God and Savior of the world, without Him there is not salvation, period. YHWH (Jesus' Father and Jesus' God and our God) did the destroying of evil ones, and not Jesus.
    I respect your beliefs, but in my opinion, “love your enemy” teaching is not just difficult, but it is impossible to be practiced.
    It is impossible with man but anything is possible with God. I am determined to practice it and many Christians have done it and are doing it.
     
  9. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    (Joyful)
    Yes, I know it very well because trinitrarians are saying the same thing. You guys are both judging each other that your enemies are the evil ones. YHWH is saying vengeance is His. You cannot see this very clear fact. So sad. Love, hitomi
    Ok, i got your point hitomi [​IMG].
     
  10. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    God only allows us to kill individuals if it's under the grounds of self defense. Our armies aren't suppose to conquer other nations unless if it's in God's will. He'll allow us to conquer nations if they are pegan. But if that particular nation is under God, then He'll protect them.Now it's also allowed to punish a person if curtain criteria are met. A nation's laws are correct if they follow God's laws first, and Mosses' law second. Say, a person committed a murder. For example, it would be okay to stone them (execute) if there were a curtain number of witnesses present. But most importantly, if someone acts aggressively towards you, turn the other cheek. If it's life threatening, then try to sustain that person. Don't kill them unless if it's absolutely necessary. That's how I view it. I can't really bother to find any verses because it's 1 AM here. And if I got any of this information wrong, be my guest and correct me.The Bible teaches you to love your neighbor and your enemy. God taught that so that people may follow it so that there will be less disobedience towards God. It's more of a guideline. But there are people who disobey God, and that's where the law comes in.
     
  11. Amy

    Amy New Member

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    Jesus said : 'love your enemies' People usually turn deaf when given biblical references so lets try examples from the world and prove this statement is paratically possible. The world history has many examples who lived, were no prophets or saints not even christians but practiced ''love your enemy'' and succeeded big time. Hence the emphasis are on the practicality of this statement, setting aside whatever religion one believes in. Can this be practiced, is the question here !YES, the answer is Gandhi !Back in history, India and Pakistan was one nation called the sub-continent a.k.a Hindustan. Then came Bristish as traders to our land and never left for 200 YEARS (until 1947)can you believe this? In these 200 years more than 200 battles on big and small scale were fought by the freedom fighters but to NO SUCCESS. Congress was one of the biggest political parties at that time in Hindustan, fighting for freedom. The Congress had people like Nehru and Jinah and later Gandhi joined in. Gandhi's philosphy was Truth and Nonviolence which over threw the British empire and led to freedom. Gandhi said: "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for" Gandhi (founder of India) by religion was a humanist and Jinah (founder of Pakistan) was muslim. Therefore, when British left, the Hindustan was divided into two, today called India and Pakistan. As you read the history of Hindustan, on one occassion (there were many more) the British were very harsh on the freedom fighters and many were killed. Jinah suggest to congress, ''an eye for an eye' but Gandhi answered, ''an eye for an eye, will only make the whole world blind''. Gandhi said: ''Neither Violence Nor Submission...'' Please read about one of the greatest MAN in the world history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SatyagrahaWelcome ammuslim !
     
  12. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    God only allows us to kill individuals if it's under the grounds of self defense. Our armies aren't suppose to conquer other nations unless if it's in God's will. He'll allow us to conquer nations if they are pegan. But if that particular nation is under God, then He'll protect them.Now it's also allowed to punish a person if curtain criteria are met. A nation's laws are correct if they follow God's laws first, and Mosses' law second. Say, a person committed a murder. For example, it would be okay to stone them (execute) if there were a curtain number of witnesses present. But most importantly, if someone acts aggressively towards you, turn the other cheek. If it's life threatening, then try to sustain that person. Don't kill them unless if it's absolutely necessary. That's how I view it. I can't really bother to find any verses because it's 1 AM here. And if I got any of this information wrong, be my guest and correct me.The Bible teaches you to love your neighbor and your enemy. God taught that so that people may follow it so that there will be less disobedience towards God. It's more of a guideline. But there are people who disobey God, and that's where the law comes in.
    Wakka,Read this very carefully, because I know all trinitarians support and join the military and Ray comfort is one of them too. You sound like you believe everything what he says.Matthew 5:43-48 (King James Version) 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.Love, hitomi
     
  13. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    All our Muslim friends, please read this verses what Jesus is saying in the New Testament:Matthew 5:43-48 (King James Version)Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.Love, hitomi
     
  14. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Don't come to the conclusion that I listen to everything that Ray Comfort believes in. I didn't even know he supported the military. But somewhere you have to draw the line. You can't have a mass murderer rampage through your town. You have to do something to stop them. But, killing the innocent is unlawful.Luke 22:36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
     
  15. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Wakka)
    Don't come to the conclusion that I listen to everything that Ray Comfort believes in. I didn't even know he supported the military. But somewhere you have to draw the line. You can't have a mass murderer rampage through your town. You have to do something to stop them. But, killing the innocent is unlawful.
    Bingo Wakka, I'll repeat this again, we aren't second class citizens. We should be fighting against the spirit of the antichrist. And Christ never said "Don't do anything when evil arrives..." Yahshua wasn't all sweet on them either.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  16. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Bingo Wakka, I'll repeat this again, we aren't second class citizens. We should be fighting against the spirit of the antichrist. And Christ never said "Don't do anything when evil arrives..." Yahshua wasn't all sweet on them either.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
    That's why I believe that the law of Moses comes in. You should follow that. But most importantly, follow God's law over the Moses law.Oh, and thats one more thing that annoys me. People come in preaching the false doctrine that Christ is only Peace, Love, and Mercy. That's untrue. Christ isn't any different than his Father.
     
  17. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Since Yahshua said this...Matthew 5:17-18 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.He was not just fulfilling, Love thy neighbor and enemy. The laws from the OT is still as good as it is today. The food laws, self-defense etc...The only thing that changed was, we are able to repent. When we repent, we don't shed the blood of the lamb, we give it to the Lamb that died for us, we ask forgiveness and it's over.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  18. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (Wakka;16869)
    Don't come to the conclusion that I listen to everything that Ray Comfort believes in. I didn't even know he supported the military. But somewhere you have to draw the line. You can't have a mass murderer rampage through your town. You have to do something to stop them. But, killing the innocent is unlawful.
    You don't have to kill to defend yourself or others. Your mentality is the same as the seculars. Jesus is expecting us to be much different than seculars. Read what Jesus is saying that I just quoted. Is that the same as secular common sense to you? Not to me.
    Luke 22:36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
    What makes you think Jesus wants you to use the sword to kill people for protection? Jesus is watching how we interpret the Bible, He is looking into our hearts if we are trully trying to be peaceful and holy. Noone is perfect but if we try our best, Jesus will fill our imperfection part. Following Jesus is not easy. That's why He is saying "narrow is the gate to lead to life and only a few find it.love, hitomi
     
  19. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Joyful)
    What makes you think Jesus wants you to use the sword to kill people for protection? Jesus is watching how we interpret the Bible, He is looking into our hearts if we are trully trying to be peaceful and holy. Noone is perfect but if we try our best, Jesus will fill our imperfection part. Following Jesus is not easy. That's why He is saying "narrow is the gate to lead to life and only a few find it.love, hitomi
    What makes you think that Christians can't use a literal sword for self-defense. It's not about killing people. It's about defending people's life with your life. Anyway, I love everyone. [​IMG]Love JordanLovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  20. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    What makes you think that Christians can't use a literal sword for self-defense. It's not about killing people. It's about defending people's life with your life. Anyway, I love everyone. [​IMG]Love JordanLovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
    do you realize that Jesus and His disciples in the NT never harmed nor killed anyone? They had every right to kill their opposers because they were so evil. What does Jesus say to Peter when he tried to kill pharisee to defend Jesus? Jesus rebuked Peter and said if you live by the sword you die by the sword. Please answer these questions. You seem to close your eye from the truth. I will say the say the same thing to you: It is not easy to follow Jesus. Read again what I quoted: Does that sound like secular common sense to you? That's what Jesus wants His followers to do.
     
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