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Discussion in 'Community Welcome Center' started by ammuslim, Aug 29, 2007.

  1. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Joyful)
    do you realize that Jesus and His disciples in the NT never harmed nor killed anyone? They had every right to kill their opposers because they were so evil. What does Jesus say to Peter when he tried to kill pharisee to defend Jesus? Jesus rebuked Peter and said if you live by the sword you die by the sword. Please answer these questions. You seem to close your eye from the truth. I will say the say the same thing to you: It is not easy to follow Jesus. Read again what I quoted: Does that sound like secular common sense to you? That's what Jesus wants His followers to do.
    And I'll repeat this to you, when did the secular world ever use their common sense. Evil never uses common sense. I clearly know that it's not easy to follow Yahshua. And you clearly misinterpret scriptures that when Yahshua was talking to Peter. The thing is, I don't think you are there yet at Matthew 7:1.(Joyful)
    do you realize that Jesus and His disciples in the NT never harmed nor killed anyone?
    John 18:10-11 - Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  2. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    Ok I mixed up the Scripture. You are still ignoring many things I am mentioning like Jesus and His disciples did not harm anyone in the NT; not even even one account.
     
  3. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Joyful)
    (thesuperjag;16898)
    And I'll repeat this to you, when did the secular world ever use their common sense. Evil never uses common sense. I clearly know that it's not easy to follow Yahshua. And you clearly misinterpret scriptures that when Yahshua was talking to Peter. The thing is, I don't think you are there yet at Matthew 7:1.
    Ok, You believe I am judging, but I dont think so. this is for Jesus to judge whether I am judging or telling the whole truth. Can we just let Jesus judge us? If you want to judge me as I am judging go right ahead. I am waiting Jesus' judgement; not yours nor anyone else, Jag.How very tempting that is, no I won't judge anyone, But I think we are have communication problems aren't we? Yahshua in his time said this.John 8:15 - Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.(Scripture)
    John 18:10-11 - Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
    (Joyful)
    Ok I mixed up the Scripture. You are still ignoring many things I am mentioning like Jesus and His disciples did not harm anyone in the NT; not even even one account.
    Wakka did pretty well explaining it on the above. [​IMG]Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  5. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (thesuperjag;16904)
    How very tempting that is, no I won't judge anyone, But I think we are have communication problems aren't we? Yahshua in his time said this.John 8:15 - Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
    You are judging me by saying I am judging. Lets not play word game, Jag.I am only telling the whole truth and expressing my faith. If you have problem about it, it is just too bad, jag. You cannot stop me from expressing my faith for my Lord.
    Wakka did pretty well explaining it on the above. [​IMG]
    I know you agree with everyone who suport military when it comes to "love your enemy". I refuted already everything you are mentioning and you have been avoiding many. It seems you are pick and choosing the Scripture.love, hitomi
     
  6. ammuslim

    ammuslim New Member

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    Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.(Joyful;16818)
    Friend, I have been given the information over and over christians have been persecuted by Muslims. and aren't you having what you call "Holy war" right now?
    As I’ve explained on the other thread Holy War Fate of Non-Muslims, there is no such thing in Islam as HOLY WAR, please read my reply on this thread for better understanding. http://www.christianityboard.com/holy-war-...slims-t989.html
    It is impossible with man but anything is possible with God. I am determined to practice it and many Christians have done it and are doing it.
    This is yet another concept which I cannot accept, please let me know if God can create a tall-short man at the same time? Can He create fat-thin man at the same time? can he do something stupid? No of course not, and so not ANYHING is possible with God, because many things around us are foolish and so we cannot attribute such things to God, and so He also cannot love His enemies as he mentioned in the Bible (according to my own understanding). Psalm 5:4-64 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil;with you the wicked cannot dwell.5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.6 You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.Psalm 11:55 The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.In case you will not consider Psalm as scriptures then please have a look at other books from the Bible.Ecclesiastes 3:88 a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. Leviticus 20:2323 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.Deuteronomy 18:1212 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.Leviticus 26:3030 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.Romans 9:13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."In my conclusion I say, God cannot love everyone, because the moment he loves the believers in the same way that he love the unbelievers or His enemies, then I will consider Him to be UNJUST and UNFAIR, but I say that God is fair, and so how can he love the unbelievers and the wicked people and then throw them into eternal Hell? Of course if He loves them all equally, then He will not punish those who rejected Him, and so I will consider Him to be UNJUST. so according to the Bible, the wicked people and those who rejected Him and His message are not loved by God Almighty. This is only my own observation. Salamammuslim
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (thesuperjag)
    How very tempting that is, no I won't judge anyone, But I think we are have communication problems aren't we? Yahshua in his time said this.John 8:15 - Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
    You are judging me by saying I am judging. Lets not play word game, Jag.I am only telling the whole truth and expressing my faith. If you have problem about it, it is just too bad, jag. You cannot stop me from expressing my faith for my Lord.I only said that, because I felt it was coming any sooner...If not, I'm sorry about that and please forgive me. Same here with me, I'm only expressing mine faith for YHWH.(Joyful)
    (thesuperjag)
    Wakka did pretty well explaining it on the above. [​IMG]
    I know you agree with everyone who suport military when it comes to "love your enemy". I refuted already everything you are mentioning and you have been avoiding many. It seems you are pick and choosing the Scripture.love, hitomiNo, it's your complete lack of ability to understand of what we are saying to you...This is what happen when someone get so obsessed to a certain topic. When someone does, they only rely on self. Anyway, this is going nowhere. I love everyone in all of my heart. We are allowed to self-defense.Lovest ye in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  8. Ricky W

    Ricky W New Member

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    Ehm... Sorry guys, but is itn't should be better if we move your lovely comment about this, to the forum that has been given to discuss this ?I just feel not true discuss this at a say hello forum [​IMG] ? Don't you think [​IMG] ?
     
  9. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    As I’ve explained on the other thread Holy War Fate of Non-Muslims, there is no such thing in Islam as HOLY WAR, please read my reply on this thread for better understanding.
    Ok, ammuslim, forget about holy war, how about Christians being persecuted by muslims? Is that false information?
    This is yet another concept which I cannot accept, please let me know if God can create a tall-short man at the same time? Can He create fat-thin man at the same time? can he do something stupid? No of course not, and so not ANYHING is possible with God, because many things around us are foolish and so we cannot attribute such things to God, and so He also cannot love His enemies as he mentioned in the Bible (according to my own understanding).
    Look, friend, I am Christian and Jesus' follower and I know what Jesus is saying. Jesus means He does not approve His followers harming or killing anyone even for self defense. How do I know that? because Jesus and His disciples did not harm nor killed anyone even for self defense. It is not so hard to understand Jesus' love if you read the New Testament. If you are truly interested, read the New Testament for yourself. It is not a big book like the Old Testament.In Old Testament, YHWH(God's name) ordered to His people to kill evil ones. It is because God knows what He is doing. God is all knowing. But we humans are so selfish that we are not good enough to judge anyone to kill. that's why Jesus is commanding us to love our enemy and not to kill them. Old Testament and New Testament don't contradict each other.
    In my conclusion I say, God cannot love everyone, because the moment he loves the believers in the same way that he love the unbelievers or His enemies, then I will consider Him to be UNJUST and UNFAIR, but I say that God is fair, and so how can he love the unbelievers and the wicked people and then throw them into eternal Hell? Of course if He loves them all equally, then He will not punish those who rejected Him, and so I will consider Him to be UNJUST. so according to the Bible, the wicked people and those who rejected Him and His message are not loved by God Almighty.
    "For God so love the world that He gave His only Son whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16God loves everyone but He does not force His love to everyone. He is giving us choice to reject Him too.love, hitomi
     
  10. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    This is addition to ammuslim,I don't believe God will punish non-believers in eternal hell fire. We have to have original Scripture knowledge to debate this topic. Tormenting non-believers in eternal hell fire is so out of context with God's character.love, hitomi
     
  11. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    ammuslin, YHWH does not hate people by their appearance. He hates it when people sin.Psalm 97:10 - Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.Amos 5:15 - Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  12. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    We're sorry Ricky. We're trying to tell Joyful that killing is wrong and against God's law. It's only acceptable if it's to protect yourself and others. Hence why I said "Defense".I'm not too sure about armies though. I understand that God can grant a particular nation land. But that nation would either have to be in pretty bad shape and "fall" like Rome or Israel in Ezekiel. But when a nation falls, it's open to anybody to conquer.
    In my conclusion I say, God cannot love everyone, because the moment he loves the believers in the same way that he love the unbelievers or His enemies, then I will consider Him to be UNJUST and UNFAIR, but I say that God is fair, and so how can he love the unbelievers and the wicked people and then throw them into eternal Hell? Of course if He loves them all equally, then He will not punish those who rejected Him, and so I will consider Him to be UNJUST. so according to the Bible, the wicked people and those who rejected Him and His message are not loved by God Almighty.
    The Lord does love everyone. He just hates what they do. Does that make any sense to you? God is like a Judge. Everyone is currently on equal ground. But the Lord favors those who know Him. And because they know Him, He will use them to do His will.
    Look, friend, I am Christian and Jesus' follower and I know what Jesus is saying. Jesus means He does not approve His followers harming or killing anyone even for self defense. How do I know that? because Jesus and His disciples did not harm nor killed anyone even for self defense. It is not so hard to understand Jesus' love if you read the New Testament. If you are truly interested, read the New Testament for yourself. It is not a big book like the Old Testament.
    IT'S THE SAME GOD. GOD DOESN'T CHANGE! GOD SENT JESUS DOWN TO DIE FOR OUR SINS. JESUS DID THE WILL OF THE FATHER. The God, Father (also Jesus and Holy spirit) is the same God through out history. Even the Old Testament!
     
  13. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    No, it's your complete lack of ability to understand of what we are saying to you...This is what happen when someone get so obsessed to a certain topic. When someone does, they only rely on self. Anyway, this is going nowhere. I love everyone in all of my heart. We are allowed to self-defense.
    It seems that this country's christians are taking so lightly about the military. I am so sorry if you think I am obsessed by it. I will express my faith about it every chance I get. We have muslim friends here and I want them to know about Jesus' whole teachings. this is my conviction that God and Jesus have been misrepresented by Christians joining the military.
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Joyful)
    (thesuperjag)
    No, it's your complete lack of ability to understand of what we are saying to you...This is what happen when someone get so obsessed to a certain topic. When someone does, they only rely on self. Anyway, this is going nowhere. I love everyone in all of my heart. We are allowed to self-defense.
    It seems that this country's christians are taking so lightly about the military. I am so sorry if you think I am obsessed by it. I will express my faith about it every chance I get. We have muslim friends here and I want them to know about Jesus' whole teachings. this is my conviction that God and Jesus have been misrepresented by Christians joining the military.*sigh* I'm going to try this for one last time. For one, I don't know people's heart when they join the military, because of I don't know...I don't embrace military, but I embrace self-defence. There is nothing wrong with protecting yourself and others (for by example raping, murder etc) Even when I say this, we aren't able to see eye to eye anyway. And since we both have different believes, I guess we shall wait then. I really do love you Hitomi...likewise, I will get every chance I get to share faith.Lovest ye in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  15. ammuslim

    ammuslim New Member

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    Bismillah: Assalamo Alikum.(Amy;16857)
    Jesus said : 'love your enemies' People usually turn deaf when given biblical references so lets try examples from the world and prove this statement is paratically possible. The world history has many examples who lived, were no prophets or saints not even christians but practiced ''love your enemy'' and succeeded big time. Hence the emphasis are on the practicality of this statement, setting aside whatever religion one believes in. Can this be practiced, is the question here !YES, the answer is Gandhi !Back in history, India and Pakistan was one nation called the sub-continent a.k.a Hindustan. Then came Bristish as traders to our land and never left for 200 YEARS (until 1947)can you believe this? In these 200 years more than 200 battles on big and small scale were fought by the freedom fighters but to NO SUCCESS. Congress was one of the biggest political parties at that time in Hindustan, fighting for freedom. The Congress had people like Nehru and Jinah and later Gandhi joined in. Gandhi's philosphy was Truth and Nonviolence which over threw the British empire and led to freedom. Gandhi said: "There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for" Gandhi (founder of India) by religion was a humanist and Jinah (founder of Pakistan) was muslim. Therefore, when British left, the Hindustan was divided into two, today called India and Pakistan. As you read the history of Hindustan, on one occassion (there were many more) the British were very harsh on the freedom fighters and many were killed. Jinah suggest to congress, ''an eye for an eye' but Gandhi answered, ''an eye for an eye, will only make the whole world blind''. Gandhi said: ''Neither Violence Nor Submission...'' Please read about one of the greatest MAN in the world history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha
    Your post was truly interesting, Gandhi, I respect him a lot and he is one of my favorites men in history, Hinduism is also part of my study, and so I know a lot about this man and Hinduism. But bringing Gandhi into our subjects is a bit strange; because for you as a Christian, you don’t consider him to be saved, do you? Because he did not accept Jesus to be his only God and savior, and he was not baptized in the name of Trinity, was he? Anyway, Although Gandhi believed in the concept of Ahimsa or Non violence, but he does not love being oppressed and so he fought all his life in his own way to gain freedom. Interestingly, Gandhi also believed that Islam was not spread by the sword as many Non Muslims think, he wrote in his book "Young India":
    "I wanted to know the best of one who holds today's undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind....I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life."
    I hope now you will believe in the words of Gandhi whom you believe to be one of the greatest men in history.
    Welcome ammuslim !
    You are welcome too. Salamammuslim
     
  16. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Ghandi would have been such a saint if he wasn't lost. [​IMG]Poor man. He was such a warrior.
     
  17. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    [quote name='thesuperjag;16920]*sigh* I'm going to try this for one last time. For one' date=' I don't know people's heart when they join the military,[/quote']You don't have to know the people's hearts about military. Military is killing and destroy the enemy institution. You don't have military to have peaceful conversation to convert your enemy to your religion. Do you realize that when you sign up for military you have to swear to your government? Do you know that soldiers are called GI(government issue)? You cannot say no to any of their orders? YHWH says you can not have two masters.
    I embrace selfdefence too but I dont have to kill or harm anyone to do it. Jesus did and so did His disciples in the New Testament and many other our brethren are doing it right now. Peter tried to kill and got rebuked for it.
    I repeat again, please read it since you have been ignoring it. I will do anything to protect innocent ones but I will do it without resorting to kill or harm anyone. That may result in been killed. Look at the tortured and persecuted brethren every where. It is the same logic. We are pampering ourselves too much in free countries as Jesus' followers, my friend.[quote Even when I say this, we aren't able to see eye to eye anyway.[/quote]It is just laim excuse to me. If you call it judging and so be it. I still speak up for other persecuted brethren and I respect them and admire them as Jesus followers.
    I love you too, jag. Jesus tells us to "do to others as you would have them do to you" and I am speaking up for brethren who are sacrificing themseves to be tortured, killed and jailed because they are Christians. They are good examples of "love your enemy". By following Jesus' teaching of "love your enemy" I am supporting and respecting them highly. This is the least I can do for them. This is my loyalty for Jesus and my persecuted brethren all over the world.love, hitomi
     
  18. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (Wakka;16927)
    Ghandi would have been such a saint if he wasn't lost. [​IMG]Poor man. He was such a warrior.
    I believe Ghandi said that he love Jesus but he deos not like His followers. Ghandi made serious mistake about christianity. He should have read the Bible instead of criticisizing Jesus' disobelient christians. There aren't many loyal and obedient christians. that's why Jesus says "narrow is the gate to lead to life and only a few find it."love, hitomi
     
  19. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Okay. Joyful. Think of it like this. One nation is attacking another nation. Wouldn't you think that the defensive nation would protect itself. Wouldn't you think God would protect your Nation if it was being attacked by Pagans? Look at Israel and the 6 day war. God permits self defense. Jesus even told the disciples to buy swords.
     
  20. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (Wakka;16979)
    Okay. Joyful. Think of it like this. One nation is attacking another nation. Wouldn't you think that the defensive nation would protect itself. Wouldn't you think God would protect your Nation if it was being attacked by Pagans? Look at Israel and the 6 day war. God permits self defense. Jesus even told the disciples to buy swords.
    Wakka, if those information I gave you and you still think it is ok for Jesus' followers to approve and join the military, I have nothing else to say anymore.good day,love, hitomi
     
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