teamventure
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Perry Stone Talks Rapture
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revturmoil
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Revelation 3:1 ¶And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev. 3:1-3 simply states that the church in Sardis is dead and they need to watch and strengthen what they already know and repent. BUT! If they don't watch, i.e. take heed, be cautious, or give strick attention to, Christ will come on them unaware.
What does that have to do with a pre-trib rapture???
1 Thessalonians 5:1 ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
In these verses Paul say's that there's no need for him to explain to them the times and seasons of Christ return because they have already been made aware that the Lord would return unexpectedly......When people (heathen) say 'peace and safety', sudden destruction will come and they (heathen) will not escape. BUT! because the 'brethren' (Christians) are not in darkness that day should not catch them unaware.
BRETHREN, i.e. CHRISTIANS are not in darkness like the heathen so that that day would (should not) not catch them unaware.
What does that have to do with a pre-trib rapture???
You need to stop listening to the deceptive teachings of the big shot pre-tribulationist, pray for understanding, be willing to change your mind, and accept the simple truths in God's Word.
WHY SHOULD THEY WATCH? BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW WHAT TO WATCH FOR SINCE PAUL ALREADY TOLD THEM THE TIMES AND SEASONS!
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev. 3:1-3 simply states that the church in Sardis is dead and they need to watch and strengthen what they already know and repent. BUT! If they don't watch, i.e. take heed, be cautious, or give strick attention to, Christ will come on them unaware.
What does that have to do with a pre-trib rapture???
1 Thessalonians 5:1 ¶But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
In these verses Paul say's that there's no need for him to explain to them the times and seasons of Christ return because they have already been made aware that the Lord would return unexpectedly......When people (heathen) say 'peace and safety', sudden destruction will come and they (heathen) will not escape. BUT! because the 'brethren' (Christians) are not in darkness that day should not catch them unaware.
BRETHREN, i.e. CHRISTIANS are not in darkness like the heathen so that that day would (should not) not catch them unaware.
What does that have to do with a pre-trib rapture???
You need to stop listening to the deceptive teachings of the big shot pre-tribulationist, pray for understanding, be willing to change your mind, and accept the simple truths in God's Word.
WHY SHOULD THEY WATCH? BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW WHAT TO WATCH FOR SINCE PAUL ALREADY TOLD THEM THE TIMES AND SEASONS!
Are you afraid of death?Christ said not to fear those who can kill the body,so whats the problem?Also the death you are talking about,will not be at the hands of the antichrist,else he could not deceive anyone into believing he is Christ.....
Now let's see who will be doing the killing.....
John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
satan will not kill anyone,but the two witnesses......
He's really not making that up.
If your preacher is telling you the coming tribulation is going to be like all out WWIII, or like how Hal Lindsay's books read, then he's deceiving you. It's called 'fear tactics'.
Look at Rev.9 about the stinging. That stinging is ONLY upon those NOT sealed with God's seal. And those locusts are told they cannot kill those, but only 'sting' them for a period of "five months." At the same time, that is pointing out that those of God's servants that ARE sealed with His seal, can be killed.
The main point is that the antichrist is not going to go after the already-deceived ones. He will already have the deceived in his pocket. It's those of Christ's servants that CANNOT be deceived that the antichrist will specifically go after. Towards the end of that Rev.9 chapter, we're told the fire and brimstone from the locusts comes out of their 'mouths'. What comes out of one's mouth? Words. Thus that 'sting' they will do involves deception through words, not a literal scorpion sting like in some Hollywood monster movie!
When the tribulation begins, it's going to be about 'world peace'.
The beast system is to suffer a deadly wound upon one of its seven heads per Rev.13. That's what will bring the antichrist in to heal that wound. And that healing is about his coming in the role of God to deceive the whole world into believing that Christ has returned, and God's literal Kingdom has begun on earth. Problem is, our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned that first one coming to work great signs and miracles on earth will be a fake.
This is why in the Book of Daniel we're shown the "vile person" (type for the coming antichrist) will bring in prosperity, with craft prospering by his hand, and that he will destroy many using 'peace'.
In Matt.24 and Mark 13 our Lord Jesus told us that as long as we hear of wars and rumours of wars, don't be troubled for those things must be, BUT, the end is not yet. The opposite of that is a time of peace on earth.
In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul said when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then sudden destruction will come upon 'them'. That's pointing to a time of world peace on earth in the days when Christ returns. That destruction Paul speaks of is by Christ at His second coming to end the fake 'peace' the "vile person" (antichrist) will use.
Today, we're being given a contrast with world events involving strife, a time of trouble, a time of sorrows. The events of today leading up to the appearance of the pseudo-Messiah is going to keep getting worse and worse. It's going to produce a failure upon the world beast system being setup today over all nations. We can see the financial basis of world markets starting to collapse already. If the financial markets go down, everything goes down with it.
When that turns to the ultimate collapse, the world is going to be primed to look for a saviour to pull them out of it. In steps the antichrist/false messiah in the role of God, able to work literal miracles on earth in the sight of men (Rev.13). That's when the 3.5 years of Daniel begins, when that false messiah steps in to heal the deadly wound, and offer everyone a chicken in every pot, pay off your debts, etc., if ONLY you bow to worship him and accept his mark for buying and selling.
Could not have said it better....Its funny to me that people think satan will bring some man back to life,after receiving a
deadly wound,how can one fail to realize that satan cannot give life,he only takes it...he could care less about your flesh body,he wants your soul to die along with him,in the lake of fire....
If you don't understand the beginning,you won't understand the end.......
To all,
Many of the Jews escaped Europe before the exit was closed. Some were only able to send their families, while they perished. And yet entire families perished, having no anticipation as to the severity of the times.
Will it be any different in these times? -- I think not.
You can believe the false prophets over Scripture, but Scripture DOES warn us.
BibleScribe
Many of the Jews escaped Europe before the exit was closed. Some were only able to send their families, while they perished. And yet entire families perished, having no anticipation as to the severity of the times.
Will it be any different in these times? -- I think not.
You can believe the false prophets over Scripture, but Scripture DOES warn us.
BibleScribe
teamventure
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if the tribulation isn't going to be full of death and destruction then please explain these verses: mat 24:21-22 "for there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beninning of the world to this time, nor shall ever be."
"and except those days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved."
Jesus clearly describes that the tribultion will be the worst time in history and if it were not shortened, no one would live through it.
and what about rev ch 6 where it explains war, famine, and death
or rev 9:15 1/3 part of mankind being killed
or rev 8:7 1/3 tress/grass burnt up
sounds like destrcution and death is clearly stated. so please what is your enterpretation of these vs if not literal??
teamventure
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i should be asking you these questions. why don't you believe the tribulation will be a time of death and destruction? are you afraid of death?? christ said not to fear those who can kill the body so what's your problem?
To All,
What teamventure asserts is exactly correct:
Rev. 13:9 - 10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
Furthermore, when satan challenged the faithfulness of Job, GOD said he couldn't take his life. And of course John says satan comes to steal, kill, and destroy.
So per the above, it appears that "n2thelight" is closer to ~n2thedark~. But the TRUTH of Scripture is absolute.
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Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3
According to 2 Thess 2:3 two things have got to occur before rapture time...
1. The great falling away (as a result from the love grown cold).
2. The revealing of the anti-Christ
When you see the anti-Christs appearing... Look up! For your redemption draweth nigh!
According to 2 Thess 2:3 two things have got to occur before rapture time...
1. The great falling away (as a result from the love grown cold).
2. The revealing of the anti-Christ
When you see the anti-Christs appearing... Look up! For your redemption draweth nigh!
Of course there will be death during the tribulation,my point is why do you all(rapturist)seek to escape these things,christians have been dying since Abel,and by some of the most extreme torture methods ever....My point is what makes you all so special that you won't go through the same?
teamventure
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i guess we'll find out when everything goes down. i'm not going to get into rapture debate with people because i believe there has been enough disention among the brethren concerning it.
The Greek word for "tribulation" means 'pressure (literally or figuratively)' (Strong's no. 2347). It's also translated as 'trouble', 'affliction', and 'persecution' in the KJV Bible. It's not a word like 'genocide', which is how some try to define it.
When our Lord Jesus said the end is not yet as long as there's wars and rumours of wars, that should have gotten your attention that He was pointing to a time of peace for the end, and not war. Apostle Paul showed the same idea with the "Peace and safety" the deceived will be declaring, and when they do, that's when a "sudden destruction" will come upon... them (by Christ's coming).
Many seem to also confuse "the day of The Lord" events with the "great tribulation", when per God's Word the day of The Lord events are what our Lord Jesus Himself brings to end the tribulation with the battle of Armageddon. When that event occurs, that begins day one of Christ's Millennium reign on earth with His elect priests and kings, with Satan locked in the pit for a thousand years (Rev.20).
Matt.24 and 1 Thess.5 are not the only Scriptures which reveal the great tribulation is not going to be a time of literal war. Rev.13:4 is also indirectly declaring it's not going to be about literal war, with the question of who can make war with the beast. Paul is covering the same idea in 2 Thess 2, about the false one coming to sit in the temple of God, showing himself that He is God, exalting himself above all... that is worshipped.
So just how... is that idea of 'tribulation' meant for that time? All the end time prophecies culminate into one major event of tribulation in the days just prior to Christ's second coming. It's about bowing in false worship to a fake Christ, instead of waiting for Christ's coming afterwards to destroy that Wicked one. It's what the 'chaste virgin' metaphors are about, the idea of waiting for Christ as His bride to be, not being found spiritually 'with child' of another when He returns, being shod with the Gospel Armour on, and able to 'stand' in the 'evil day'.
That day is going to be evil, because the majority of the world is going to wrongly fall for the coming false messiah that is to appear on earth first. Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about it. It's just a simple matter of staying in His Word and putting all those warnings together in understanding.
The reason the tribulation is going to be unlike any other time upon this earth is because of who that false messiah is going be played by, and because of so many in the world getting sucked into his trap of false worship in place of Christ Jesus. For the deceived, it will devour their souls. For Christ's elect, it will be a time of real persecution by those deceived, which may include even some of their very own family members that become deceived (Mark 13:12-13). Imagine your own children turning you in because you refuse to believe on the false messiah they will think is God having come.
Thus, the tribulation is going to be about the coming of a FALSE god, with powers to work miracles upon this earth to make the majority believe it! No other generation in the history of this world has ever experienced that, nor will ever again. All the previous wars and false prophets of history won't be able to match up to that kind of event coming upon this earth. The false working is to be so deceptive in power, that it would deceive Christ's own elect, IF it were possible for them to be deceived (Matt.24). Those 'sealed' with God's sealing will not be deceived, for that's what His sealing is for in regards to the tribulation.
Involves metaphors for 'spiritual' death, for the tribulation is specifically for a certain period of certain seals, trumpets, and vials. It's specifically going to be on the 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe period of Rev.9 through Rev.11. Notice in Rev.11 when God's two witnesses are killed, the nations are going to throw a big party, giving gifts to each other, etc. That's not a sign of war and famine. Some of the seals and trumpet periods involve a time of sorrows (Mark 13) that LEAD... up to the great tribulation. The beginnings of sorrows are starting today, but that's not the tribulation time just yet.
Rev 9:18-19
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
(KJV)
If one only concentrates upon the idea of killing with flesh death, they'll totally miss where their power comes from, out of their MOUTHS. What comes out of one's mouth? That's to let us know this is a symbolic metaphor, that what comes out of their mouths is what does the killing. It points to spiritual death to one's soul, not literal death to one's flesh.
Rev 9:3-5
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(KJV)
The locusts are not to hurt any green thing, nor grass, nor tree, nor can they kill, but ONLY STING.
Compare that to the Rev.9 Scripture I quoted. It's about spiritual death caused by deception for the last days.
1 Pet 1:24
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
(KJV)
Mark 8:24
24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
(KJV)
teamventure
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thanks for explaining veteran. however the part that doesn't make sence to me still is where 1/3 of men are killed with a spiritual death. because we know more than 1/3 of mankind will follow the beast and die a spiritual death so what sets this 1/3 part of mankind from the rest??
You're right. It is about more than 1/3. But probably not as you're thinking though.
This is pretty deep, so I'll try...
Rev 9:19-21
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
(KJV)
That's about a division of who the locust working doesn't affect. These represent who? The wicked. Notice they are not killed by that locust working. Could these wicked be that 1/3? No, not really, which does indeed have to do with what you're thinking about more than 1/3 being affected with spiritual death.
Zech 13:6-9
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn Mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, "It is My people": and they shall say, "The LORD is my God."
(KJV)
Now re-read the Rev.9:15 verse once again...
Rev 9:15
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to (hina) slay the third part of men.
(KJV)
The Greek word 'hina' means 'intent' to do a thing. Doesn't mean success in doing it.
The locusts are specifically sent upon God's people for the tribulation, us Christians. Two-thirds will be cut off and die. But the 1/3 is us, we be Christians!
then there's this too...
Rev 9:18
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
(KJV)
Apostle Paul foretold of a time of great apostasy of God's people for the end (2 Thess.2). Many brethren will be deceived, suffering spiritual death (i.e., the five foolish virgins). But the Zech.13 Scripture reveals they will repent once they realize their apostasy. I do not see them as lost, but appearing in shame when Christ returns.
Does this jive with the Rev.9:3-5 verses about the stinging upon those NOT sealed with God's sealing? Yes. Rev.9:6 even reveals men will seek death, but won't find it. The stinging is about spiritual death caused by deception, which is caused by what comes out of the locust's mouths.
And notice particularly, the warning of 3 Woes back at the end of Rev.8. The 3 Woes align with the last 3 trumpets. What does that point to with the previous 4 trumpets in Rev.8 then? Those previous 4 trumpets align with the sign our Lord Jesus gave about the "beginning of sorrows" period, the period just prior to the start of the 1st Woe - 5th trumpet. The "beginning of sorrows" is the time leading up to the great tribulation. It's about the signs our Lord Jesus gave in the Matt.24:4-7 verses, many coming saying they are Christ, wars and rumours of wars, nation against nation, earthquakes, famine, etc. But at Matt.24:9 begins the events within the 3 Woe periods.
teamventure
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quite in depth. i must admit i'll have to go back and read it a second time before i retain it all..
revturmoil
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Satan has given life. He created the giants! If we have entertained angels 'unawares'. It's possible that we have entertained fallen angels unawares.
There should be no problem accepting that the world will wonder after "the beast that WAS, and is not, and YET LIVES! I have an unusual theory about who this beast was, and is not...And I hope to cover that in the Assyrian in a few days.
If you're trying to use the idea of the "deadly wound" for the antichrist, the "deadly wound" per Rev.13 is upon the 1st beast mentioned there, specifically upon one of the "seven heads" which Christ revealed are "seven mountains." That wound is not upon the dragon.
teamventure
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they don't. people don't believe in the rapture because of wishfull thinking. they believe in it b/c of it being in the word.
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