PETER AND PAUL ON BAPTISMS AND THE HOLY GHOST

[Tong2020]

there is only one savior one new covenant and one salvation.
grace is received thru baptism.
Why is faith not a work? Don’t you have to choose to believe?

<<grace is received through baptism>>

Grace is given by God freely, according to His will. We don't receive grace because we get ourselves baptized or because we did this or that. It is through Jesus Christ that we have access into the grace of the salvation of God, and that is by faith, and not by baptism as you contend.

<<<Why is faith not a work? Don’t you have to choose to believe?>>

Faith is grace from God and is not some work that man does. Faith comes to a man by hearing the word of God. One may claim to have faith, have knowledge, have wisdom, and have just about anything that is good. And certainly those things we hope to have. But may I ask, what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you think and speak as if you had not received it?

Tong
R1170

 

[Doug]

That is a VERY SERIOUS MISUNDERSTANDING of Peter and Paul.

1. Both were taught by Christ.
2. Both were commissioned by Christ.
3. Both were commanded to preach the Gospel.
4. Both were commanded to baptize believers.
5. Both were commanded to disciple the saints.
6. Both were martyred for Christ.
7. There is only one Gospel, only one baptism with the Holy Spirit, and only one Christian baptism by immersion in water.

The major fallacy of those who try to put a wedge between Peter and Paul is that they are expecting AN EXACT CORRESPONDENCE in how they communicated their preaching and teaching. But since each one had a different personality and a different background, it is reasonable to expect that they would communicate differently.

Everything is in perfect harmony with Christ and His apostles, and within the New Testament. Therefore it would be absurd to imagine that there was conflict and contradiction among the apostles.

Paul said he was not sent to baptize.

 

[Doug]

So Scripture contradicts itself?

There are different dispensations.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Really?
Then why did God send a John to prepare the way thru baptism?

Baptism was the culturally accepted practice, indicating a recommitment to righteousness. It was believed that if the nation were to keep the law perfectly for one day, the messiah would come. Some people heard the call and came to John for "purification." The Pharisees refused baptism because, according to them, they were already righteous.

Why did Jesus get baptized? While both Jesus and John knew that Jesus didn't need to rededicate himself to righteousness, because we was a devout man, Jesus received baptism from John for the sake of righteousness. That is, if the rest of the nation saw a devout man get baptized, he would set a good example for everyone else to follow.

John was preaching a baptism of repentance, and those who repented were promised forgiveness.

born again means baptism.

Born again is literally, "born from above" to be born of the Spirit.

 

[Doug]

The major fallacy of those who try to put a wedge between Peter and Paul is that they are expecting AN EXACT CORRESPONDENCE in how they communicated their preaching and teaching. But since each one had a different personality and a different background, it is reasonable to expect that they would communicate differently.

Saying that their differing styles is the only basis in saying their messages were different is incorrect.
Peter preached baptism for the remission of sin.
Paul taught Christ redeemed us by the cross.

 

[amigo de christo]

Saying that their differing styles is the only basis in saying their messages were different is incorrect.
Peter preached baptism for the remission of sin.
Paul taught Christ redeemed us by the cross.

ENOCH is correct . This , what you said , was taught by men . FLEE IT and never look back .

 

[theefaith]

<<grace is received through baptism>>

Grace is given by God freely, according to His will. We don't receive grace because we get ourselves baptized or because we did this or that. It is through Jesus Christ that we have access into the grace of the salvation of God, and that is by faith, and not by baptism as you contend.

<<<Why is faith not a work? Don’t you have to choose to believe?>>

Faith is grace from God and is not some work that man does. Faith comes to a man by hearing the word of God. One may claim to have faith, have knowledge, have wisdom, and have just about anything that is good. And certainly those things we hope to have. But may I ask, what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you think and speak as if you had not received it?

Tong
R1170

Christ instituted the sacraments to impart grace to our souls from His infinite merits!
We are in a covenant not a prayer group!

you still have free will to choose to believe! And to abide in Jesus Jn 15:1 and to obey Matt 28:19

 

[theefaith]

Baptism was the culturally accepted practice, indicating a recommitment to righteousness. It was believed that if the nation were to keep the law perfectly for one day, the messiah would come. Some people heard the call and came to John for "purification." The Pharisees refused baptism because, according to them, they were already righteous.

Why did Jesus get baptized? While both Jesus and John knew that Jesus didn't need to rededicate himself to righteousness, because we was a devout man, Jesus received baptism from John for the sake of righteousness. That is, if the rest of the nation saw a devout man get baptized, he would set a good example for everyone else to follow.

John was preaching a baptism of repentance, and those who repented were promised forgiveness.


Born again is literally, "born from above" to be born of the Spirit.

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptism!

 

[Tong2020]

Christ instituted the sacraments to impart grace to our souls from His infinite merits!
We are in a covenant not a prayer group!

you still have free will to choose to believe! And to abide in Jesus Jn 15:1 and to obey Matt 28:19

The grace we are talking about is the grace of salvation, not some other grace. And as I have pointed out, a person don't receive such grace because he get himself baptized or because he did this or that. It is through Jesus Christ that a person have access into the grace of the salvation of God, and that is by faith, and not by baptism.

Tong
R1195

 

[Illuminator]

John 1:32 – when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted.

Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok.
See John 1:31
Matthew 3:16;
Mark 1:9;
Luke 3:21.

 

[theefaith]

The grace we are talking about is the grace of salvation, not some other grace. And as I have pointed out, a person don't receive such grace because he get himself baptized or because he did this or that. It is through Jesus Christ that a person have access into the grace of the salvation of God, and that is by faith, and not by baptism.

Tong
R1195

it’s not faith and not baptism but both Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved

 

[Tong2020]

it’s not faith and not baptism but both Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved

This calls for a little study and investigation in scriptures about faith and baptism, in connection to the salvation of God.

God saves a person by His grace, through what? Is it through faith or through baptism, or through faith and baptism?

The apostle to the Gentiles Paul, clearly said concerning salvation saying "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Eph.2:8-10)". Why is baptism not mentioned by Paul there? It is not that baptism is of no or little importance to the convert, but that, it simply is not through which one is saved. Besides, if baptism was through which a person is saved, Christ would have sent Paul to baptize. But we see Paul confessing that Christ did not send him to baptize. That is a clear testimony about baptism, that it is not through which God saves. Then through what does God saves by His grace? Let's hear what is the confession of Paul which goes "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. (1 Cor. 1:17)" The phrase "to preach the gospel" there was a translation of the Greek "euangelizesthai", which means to announce good news. Why is that? If God saves through faith and baptism, as one would like to believe Mk.16:16 to be saying, that would have Paul sent for half a salvation, if I may say so. Well, the obvious reason to that is because God, by His grace, saves through faith. And as Paul also have written, faith comes to a person by hearing the word of God. And so there it is, why Paul was sent to "euangelizesthai", and why we also must "euangelizesthai". We "euangelizesthai" and God takes care of the rest. As to who will hear His words, belongs to God.

Where does baptism comes in? It comes after faith, after conversion (that is, salvation). For baptism finds its meaning from faith, and baptism is only meaningful and significant to a convert (that is, the saved). Take away faith and baptism becomes meaningless and insignificant. Truth is, take away faith, and all becomes meaningless and insignificant. In fact, scriptures says, without faith it is impossible to please God, which brings to mind what Paul said "whatever is not from faith is sin.". That is how I could understand that one who have faith in Christ, though he die without having gotten himself baptized, will be saved. This is how I could understand that one who have faith in Christ, and is baptized, will be saved. That is also how I could understand that one who got himself baptized yet have really no faith in Christ, will be condemned. This is why we read in Mk. 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

If you have considered that, but still believe that it is through faith and baptism that one is saved, then so be it with you. I really do not see any problem with that, except that it goes against the truth that a person who have faith in Christ, though he die without having gotten himself baptized, will be saved, not as an exemption nor as an exception, but as the norm of the truth that salvation is through faith.

Tong
R1226