Peter the Rock?

[RedFan]

**Calvinist Response to RedFan's Comment on Apostolic Succession**

**Errors of the Papal System Exposed**

The doctrine of apostolic succession, as espoused by the Roman Catholic Church, is fraught with errors that contradict the teachings of Scripture and the principles of the Christian faith. John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, provides a thorough critique of the papal system, highlighting its deviations from biblical truth.

**1. Unwarranted Claims of Authority:**

The papal system asserts that the pope is the sole successor of Peter, the apostle, and thus possesses supreme authority over the entire Church. This claim lacks scriptural support. The Bible teaches that all believers in Christ are part of the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:9) and that there is no distinction between clergy and laity (Galatians 3:28).

**2. Unbiblical Hierarchical Structure:**

The papal system establishes a hierarchical structure with the pope at the apex, followed by cardinals, bishops, priests, and deacons. This structure is not found in the New Testament, which emphasizes the equality of all believers in Christ (Matthew 23:8-12).

**3. Misinterpretation of Apostolic Authority:**

The Roman Catholic Church misinterprets the concept of apostolic authority. While the apostles were given authority by Christ to establish the Church and spread the gospel, this authority was not intended to be passed down to subsequent generations. The apostles were unique witnesses to Christ's life, death, and resurrection, and their authority cannot be transferred.

**4. Contradiction of Sola Scriptura:**

The papal system undermines the principle of sola Scriptura, which holds that Scripture alone is the infallible authority for Christian faith and practice. By claiming that the pope and church tradition have equal or even greater authority than Scripture, the papal system elevates human tradition above the Word of God.

**5. Abuse of Power and Corruption:**

The history of the papacy is marred by instances of abuse of power, corruption, and moral failures. Popes have been involved in political intrigue, financial scandals, and the persecution of those who dissent from their teachings. This stands in stark contrast to the teachings of Christ, who called His followers to be humble servants and to love their enemies (Matthew 20:25-28; Luke 6:27-28).

**Conclusion:**

The papal system, with its claims of apostolic succession, hierarchical structure, and unbiblical authority, deviates from the teachings of Scripture and the principles of the Christian faith. Calvin's critique of the papal system remains relevant today, exposing its errors and calling believers to return to the authority of Scripture alone.

**Bible Quotes:**

* "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." (1 Peter 2:9)
* "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him." (Romans 10:12)
* "And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction." (Matthew 10:1)
* "So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving." (Colossians 2:6-7)
* "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

I won't argue "Calvin's critique of the papal system" with you." I WILL argue apostolic succession with you if you wish -- provided you can separate one from the other. As I said earlier, they are two different things. Let's leave the Pope out of the discussion, shall we? I am Episcopalian, not Roman Catholic, and do not subscribe to the Pope's plenary authority anyway, so the RCC's hierarchy and the deeds of bad Popes won't interest me much.

Your Item #3 above says "While the apostles were given authority by Christ to establish the Church and spread the gospel, this authority was not intended to be passed down to subsequent generations. The apostles were unique witnesses to Christ's life, death, and resurrection, and their authority cannot be transferred." Who told you that? Calvin? Or is this just a sola scriptura conclusion?

I disagree. Being "unique witnesses to Christ's life, death and resurrection" are not prerequisites for transferability of authority. (We'd have to disqualify Paul if they were!) History attests to apostolic appointment of successors in positions of Church authority. In the nearly 2,000 years since Pentecost, it makes no sense to me that only in the first 40 or 50 years (or however long it took for the last apostle to die) could the Church have the benefit of binding and loosing, forgiving and retaining, and any other authority enjoyed by the original apostles.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Tell that to Abraham who was promised to be a blessing to all the families of the earth, or Jesus who gave gifts to men that the gentiles would be saved.

You’re jumping in and out of context. I was talking about Church’s authoritative interpretation of Scripture – then YOU came up with the “all peoples” clause which has nothing to o with this.

The Bible is a Church compilation – for Jews and Gentiles alike - and was never intended to be a source of division or competing doctrine. God’s purpose. as conveyed through His sacre Word is NOT up for grabs.

I was indeed referring to Pentecost, to tongues and peoples of many nations who only understood by the Holy Spirit--not just the apostles, and not at all by "others."

Nobody ever said that the people at Pentecost understood the Apostles by anything other than the Holy Spirit. However – the Holy Spirit used the Apostles to preach to them.

This is how we learn, as they were comanded by Christ to ". . .TEACH all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19-20).

This us Christianity 101 . . .

No--the Catholic priests do not breath down flames of Holy fire loosening tongues and giving understanding of things not written without so much as a word.
For someone so addiment, you sure don't have anything to offer except for a broken record of religious narrative. Getting three out of three wrong, while calling everyone else wrong...ought to tell you something.

No - they minister to the people and TEACH them in the ways of Christ. This is their calling - their duty (Matt. 28:19-20, 16:18-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).

 

[David in NJ]

I won't argue "Calvin's critique of the papal system" with you." I WILL argue apostolic succession with you if you wish -- provided you can separate one from the other. As I said earlier, they are two different things. Let's leave the Pope out of the discussion, shall we? I am Episcopalian, not Roman Catholic, and do not subscribe to the Pope's plenary authority anyway, so the RCC's hierarchy and the deeds of bad Popes won't interest me much.

Your Item #3 above says "While the apostles were given authority by Christ to establish the Church and spread the gospel, this authority was not intended to be passed down to subsequent generations. The apostles were unique witnesses to Christ's life, death, and resurrection, and their authority cannot be transferred." Who told you that? Calvin? Or is this just a sola scriptura conclusion?

I disagree. Being "unique witnesses to Christ's life, death and resurrection" are not prerequisites for transferability of authority. (We'd have to disqualify Paul if they were!) History attests to apostolic appointment of successors in positions of Church authority. In the nearly 2,000 years since Pentecost, it makes no sense to me that only in the first 40 or 50 years (or however long it took for the last apostle to die) could the Church have the benefit of binding and loosing, forgiving and retaining, and any other authority enjoyed by the original apostles.

sola scripturais the Foundation of the Church

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ah, BreadOfLife, a steadfast voyager in the realm of theological dialogue, your critique echoes through the corridors of ideas. In the spirit of Calvinistic reflection, let us embark on an illustrative journey that intertwines Calvin's teachings, biblical wisdom, and a glimpse into the dance of theological discourse.

In the quaint town of Reformed Thought, a gathering of theologians convened to engage in a discourse that mirrored the essence of Calvin's teachings. The air was filled with the fragrance of ancient scrolls, and the solemnity of the Institutes of the Christian Religion resonated in the hallowed halls.

Amidst this gathering, a figure named Calvinus stood, quoting from the revered writings: "In our pursuit of truth, let humility be our guide. The Word of God, the very essence of our faith, beckons us to approach one another with sincerity and an earnest desire to understand."

As the dialogue unfolded, a tapestry of biblical quotes adorned the conversation. The echoes of Romans 12:3 reverberated – "For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you."

Yet, amidst this theological symphony, BreadOfLife, a distinguished participant, voiced concern over what they deemed "regurgitating idiotic 'dance' references." In response, a seasoned theologian, steeped in Calvinistic wisdom, stepped forward.

Quoting from Calvin's emphasis on the centrality of the Word of God, the theologian proclaimed, "Theological matters, dear BreadOfLife, revolve around the divine revelation encapsulated in the Word of God. Our discourse should mirror the profound existence of God Himself."

In a parable woven with Calvinistic threads, the theologian envisioned a garden where the Word of God bloomed in abundance, overshadowing the distractions of superficial gestures. The dance of ideas, though nuanced, flowed in harmony with the divine narrative.

As the dialogue continued, the theologian spoke, "Let us not be entangled in the frivolous, but rather, let our discussions be anchored in the profound truths of Scripture. A mature dialogue requires not only conviction but also charity, that we may seek understanding rather than mere tolerance."

In the background, the distant echoes of Revelation 22:20 resonated – "He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming soon.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

BreadOfLife, in this Calvinistic tale, the pursuit of truth and the dance of ideas harmonize in the symphony of theological reflection. May our journey through discourse be marked by sincerity, humility, and a shared commitment to the pursuit of truth, guided by the grace of respectful dialogue. ️ #CalvinisticReflection

I know you fancy yourself as some kind of "creatuve" writer - but in a discussion forum - it's always better to just cut-to-the-chase and leave all of the descriptuve nonsense at the door.

In the end - iit's not Calvins quoting of Scripture that I find offensive - but his heretical inventions.
Hr was a guy who became full of himself instead of Christ . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

In the quaint town of Theologica, where discussions on matters of faith unfolded like chapters in a grand narrative, a gathering of scholars and theologians convened. Among them was BreadOfLife, a staunch defender of the Catholic perspective, engaging in a spirited conversation with fellow believers.

As the sun dipped below the horizon, casting hues of orange and purple across the sky, the conversation turned to the contentious topic of Apostolic Succession. BreadOfLife, with unwavering conviction, asserted, "The Church doesn't teach that Apostolic Succession is passed on by mere men. It is the Holy Spirit who chooses those who succeed."

In response, a figure emerged from the shadows, a scholar named Calvinus, well-versed in the teachings of John Calvin. With a gentle yet resolute tone, Calvinus began, "In the Institutes of the Christian Religion, Calvin expounds on the sovereignty of God's predestined plan. It is not through the whims of men but through the eternal decree of God that leaders are chosen."

Calvinus continued, "Consider Romans 8:29-30, 'For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.' This echoes the Calvinistic emphasis on divine election."

The moonlight illuminated the gathering as Calvinus expounded further, "While recognizing the Holy Spirit's role, Calvinists believe in the sufficiency of Scripture. Calvin wrote, 'For by a kind of mutual bond, the Lord has joined together the certainty of his Word and of his Spirit.' The Spirit works directly through the Word of God."

In the imaginary town square, the dialogue continued, each participant presenting their views. Calvinus, however, felt compelled to address the concerns about the papal system. "In exposing errors," he said, "Calvin warned against seeking the church in the papacy. The church is found where God's Word is embraced and His children gather in faith."

The gathering became a tapestry of theological discourse, with Calvinus proclaiming the Gospel according to Calvinistic principles. "Let us, in humility, seek God's truth and recognize the profound impact of history and tradition on our perspectives," he concluded, extending an invitation to continued dialogue under the starlit sky of Theologica.

In the ancient city of Theologia, where theological debates unfolded like scrolls of wisdom, a gathering took place under the arches of the Grand Ecclesiastical Forum. BreadOfLife, a steadfast defender of Catholic doctrines, engaged in a discussion about the election of bishops.

Amidst the echoing debates, a figure emerged wearing a cloak adorned with the writings of John Calvin. This figure, known as Calvinus, stepped forward with a calm demeanor. "In the Institutes of the Christian Religion," Calvinus began, "Calvin emphasizes the eternal decree of God, predestining individuals for specific roles within the Church. It is not a matter of human appointment but divine providence."

Quoting Romans 8:29-30, Calvinus continued, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..." The words resonated with the Calvinistic perspective, highlighting God's sovereign plan in the salvation of individuals.

Addressing the discussion on the papal system, Calvinus remarked, "Calvin warned against seeking the church in the papacy. The authority lies where God's Word is faithfully embraced, not in the corridors of earthly power." He then quoted from Calvin's writings, "For until men recognize that they owe everything to God, that they are nourished by his fatherly care, that he is the Author of their every good, they will never yield him willing service."

As BreadOfLife defended the authority of the Church, Calvinus responded with a gracious demeanor. "In matters of discipline versus doctrine, Calvinists hold fast to the unchanging truths of Scripture," he explained. Quoting John 16:12-15, Calvinus highlighted the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding believers into all truth.

The moonlit square witnessed a respectful exchange, with Calvinus inviting BreadOfLife to consider the biblical foundations of Calvinism. "Let us, in humility, seek the unchanging doctrines revealed in God's Word, recognizing that true authority lies in adherence to His eternal truths," Calvinus proclaimed, extending a hand of fellowship amidst the theological tapestry of Theologia.

Try re-wording these posts like a mature adult insead of a 1st year creative writing student.

We might actually be able to have a productive discourse . . .

 

[RedFan]

sola scripturais the Foundation of the Church

Well, then I guess there was no Foundation of the Church for the first 20+ years after Pentecost, before the first of the NT letters and gospels got written. How in the world did the Church ever manage to survive?!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You were correct regarding my ignorance of Christ's church. But neither was I totally familiar with the teachings of Rome. That didn't come until much more recently.
And it wasn't the SDA church teachings that led me away. After my conversion , it was the priest and his response to my conversion with him after mass that turned me off. I wasn't to become an Adventist for another 20 years.

YOU left Chrst's Church because of a inept priest - then got seduced by the perverse ravings of a lunatic woman.
Gee - that makes sense . . .

I've met a few bad priests in y lufe - but thar would never make me leave Christ.

Indeed, so what do you rely on for salvation and the forgiveness of sins? Indulgences? The Vatican bank?

I rely on nobody bu Christ for my salvation and the forgiveness of sin.
But, unllike YOU - I actualle believe in God's Word when Jesus empowered the leaders of His Church to forgive sins or hold them bound in His name - but HIS Authority (John 10:21-23).

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

What did the Father send the Son to do??
To bring abiout the forgiveness of sin.

What did the Son send His Apostles to do?
The very SAME thing . . .

 

[Taken]

Yes, starting in the 15th century.

2 Sam. 22:2-3, 32, 47; 23:3; Psalm 18:2,31,46; 19:4; 28:1; 42:9; 62:2,6,7; 89:26; 94:22; 144:1-2 – in these verses, God is also called “rock.” Here, "rock" is a metaphor for God, unless you want to argue that God is always a literal rock.

When Jesus changed Simon bar Jonah's name to "Rock", it was not a metaphor. It was an actual name that stuck throughout the NT. Paul calls him "Cephas" 6 times. It's an Aramaic word for Rock. Why would Paul use an Aramaic word to Greek speaking communities? Because everyone knew who Cephas was. Paul was not confused. And every Christian on the planet for 15 centuries were not confused.

I don’t even need Matt. 16:18 to prove Peter is the Rock because Jesus renamed Simon “Rock” in Mark 3:16 and John 1:42!

What IS THE Rock?

God is THE Rock.
His work IS perfect.
All His ways ARE judgement.
He IS a God of truth.
He is WITHOUT iniquity.
He IS just.
He IS right.

Deut. 32:
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

No human man IS perfect, without iniquity.
All human men ARE born IN SIN, CAN become Forgiven and perfect- ED IN Christ.

Aramaic…Cephas….meaning A “stone”.
Greek…….Pedros…..meaning A “stone”.
English…. Peter……..meaning A “stone”.

The Rock IS the unwavering Holy Perfection of God.

God IN His WISDOM teaches (human Created men) ABOUT God, (who IS Invisible),
In a manner of things men UNDERSTAND in their daily lives.

Men build with tangible, physical, visible, rocks, stones, pebbles, mortar, stick, mud, sand….etc….and withers, crumbles, dissolves, etc.

Gods builds with what is spirit, invisible, powerful, etc….and everlasting.

A ROCK is equated to power and strength that never withers, crumbles, dissolves, etc.

The Rock that never withers, crumbles, dissolves, etc…IS: God, IS; Gods Word. IS: Gods Power….

Christ’s Church is BUILT on:
Gods WORD, Gods POWER….not Peter.

Christ Jesus IS the First Member of HIS Church.

Peter was the First Human Member of Christ Jesus’ Church.

And within MINUTES…the rest of Jesus’ Disciples gathered with Him…became Members of Christ Jesus’ Church.

And thereafter ANY man who BELIEVES IN God, AND the Jesus IS the Christ and begotten Son of God AND Heartfully CONFESSES their Belief…
THEY ALSO are “AS stones” one upon the other, ADDED to the Membership OF: Christ Jesus’ Church.

Some men build “their” PHYSICAL church UPON human men, even UPON the bones of Dead human men, calling human men “their ROCK”, calling human men “their Holy Father”, calling “their man-build church” by whatever name they select, and adding members, “they” allow.

And Some men elect to JOIN, Christ Jesus’ Spiritual Church, His Church, He is spiritually adding member by member, and THEY in agreement WITH Christ Jesus, acknowledging ONLY ONE “Holy Father”, who IS God Himself.

Freewill IS afforded to all of manKIND, to choose TO Believe Gods Word, or mans Word. Gods Way, or mans Way. Gods Church or mans Church. God the Holy Father or mans holy father. God without Beginning or God having a mother.

 

[Taken]

Well, then I guess there was no Foundation of the Church for the first 20+ years after Pentecost, before the first of the NT letters and gospels got written. How in the world did the Church ever manage to survive?!

Oral then Writing….same as the OT was established.

 

[Illuminator]

What IS THE Rock?

God is THE Rock.
His work IS perfect.
All His ways ARE judgement.
He IS a God of truth.
He is WITHOUT iniquity.
He IS just.
He IS right.

Deut. 32:
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

No human man IS perfect, without iniquity.
All human men ARE born IN SIN, CAN become Forgiven and perfect- ED IN Christ.

Aramaic…Cephas….meaning A “stone”.
Greek…….Pedros…..meaning A “stone”.
English…. Peter……..meaning A “stone”.

The Rock IS the unwavering Holy Perfection of God.

God IN His WISDOM teaches (human Created men) ABOUT God, (who IS Invisible),
In a manner of things men UNDERSTAND in their daily lives.

Men build with tangible, physical, visible, rocks, stones, pebbles, mortar, stick, mud, sand….etc….and withers, crumbles, dissolves, etc.

Gods builds with what is spirit, invisible, powerful, etc….and everlasting.

A ROCK is equated to power and strength that never withers, crumbles, dissolves, etc.

The Rock that never withers, crumbles, dissolves, etc…IS: God, IS; Gods Word. IS: Gods Power….

Christ’s Church is BUILT on:
Gods WORD, Gods POWER….not Peter.

Christ Jesus IS the First Member of HIS Church.

Peter was the First Human Member of Christ Jesus’ Church.

And within MINUTES…the rest of Jesus’ Disciples gathered with Him…became Members of Christ Jesus’ Church.

And thereafter ANY man who BELIEVES IN God, AND the Jesus IS the Christ and begotten Son of God AND Heartfully CONFESSES their Belief…
THEY ALSO are “AS stones” one upon the other, ADDED to the Membership OF: Christ Jesus’ Church.

Some men build “their” PHYSICAL church UPON human men, even UPON the bones of Dead human men, calling human men “their ROCK”, calling human men “their Holy Father”, calling “their man-build church” by whatever name they select, and adding members, “they” allow.

And Some men elect to JOIN, Christ Jesus’ Spiritual Church, His Church, He is spiritually adding member by member, and THEY in agreement WITH Christ Jesus, acknowledging ONLY ONE “Holy Father”, who IS God Himself.

Freewill IS afforded to all of manKIND, to choose TO Believe Gods Word, or mans Word. Gods Way, or mans Way. Gods Church or mans Church. God the Holy Father or mans holy father. God without Beginning or God having a mother.

Gods Church or mans Church is a false dichotomy.

 

[David in NJ]

Well, then I guess there was no Foundation of the Church for the first 20+ years after Pentecost, before the first of the NT letters and gospels got written. How in the world did the Church ever manage to survive?!

Would that not be looking at things from man's perspective?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oral then Writing….same as the OT was established.

WRONG.

Oral teaching AND what was written, according to the Holy Spirit speaking through Pail . . .
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

There is NO expiration date on this passage.

 

[Illuminator]

Calvin abolished dancing.

 

[BreadOfLife]

sola scripturais the Foundation of the Church

To bad the BIBLE doesn't say that.

Sola Scriptura is a foundation of MEN, instituted in the 16th century . . .

 

[RedFan]

Oral then Writing….same as the OT was established.

Right. So, how do you know all of the "Oral" made it into the "Writing"? (I note in passing John 21:25's admonishment that "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.") And why should we discount any of the "Oral" that was a continuing teaching from all of the original apostles and those they instructed?

 

[David in NJ]

To bad the BIBLE doesn't say that.

Sola Scriptura is a foundation of MEN, instituted in the 16th century . . .

Actually, sola scriptura is all throughout the Bible.

Tell me, is Peter the Rock upon which Christ is building His Church?

 

[David in NJ]

Calvin abolished dancing.

Calvin and Hobbs brought it back.

 

[Illuminator]

**Calvinist Response to RedFan's Comment on Apostolic Succession**

**Errors of the Papal System Exposed**

The doctrine of apostolic succession, as espoused by the Roman Catholic Church, is fraught with errors that contradict the teachings of Scripture and the principles of the Christian faith. John Calvin, in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, provides a thorough critique of the papal system, highlighting its deviations from biblical truth.

**1. Unwarranted Claims of Authority:**

The papal system asserts that the pope is the sole successor of Peter, the apostle, and thus possesses supreme authority over the entire Church. This claim lacks scriptural support. The Bible teaches that all believers in Christ are part of the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:9) and that there is no distinction between clergy and laity (Galatians 3:28).

**2. Unbiblical Hierarchical Structure:**

The papal system establishes a hierarchical structure with the pope at the apex, followed by cardinals, bishops, priests, and deacons. This structure is not found in the New Testament, which emphasizes the equality of all believers in Christ (Matthew 23:8-12).

**3. Misinterpretation of Apostolic Authority:**

The Roman Catholic Church misinterprets the concept of apostolic authority. While the apostles were given authority by Christ to establish the Church and spread the gospel, this authority was not intended to be passed down to subsequent generations. The apostles were unique witnesses to Christ's life, death, and resurrection, and their authority cannot be transferred.

**4. Contradiction of Sola Scriptura:**

The papal system undermines the principle of sola Scriptura, which holds that Scripture alone is the infallible authority for Christian faith and practice. By claiming that the pope and church tradition have equal or even greater authority than Scripture, the papal system elevates human tradition above the Word of God.

**5. Abuse of Power and Corruption:**

The history of the papacy is marred by instances of abuse of power, corruption, and moral failures. Popes have been involved in political intrigue, financial scandals, and the persecution of those who dissent from their teachings. This stands in stark contrast to the teachings of Christ, who called His followers to be humble servants and to love their enemies (Matthew 20:25-28; Luke 6:27-28).

**Conclusion:**

The papal system, with its claims of apostolic succession, hierarchical structure, and unbiblical authority, deviates from the teachings of Scripture and the principles of the Christian faith. Calvin's critique of the papal system remains relevant today, exposing its errors and calling believers to return to the authority of Scripture alone.

**Bible Quotes:**

* "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." (1 Peter 2:9)
* "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him." (Romans 10:12)
* "And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction." (Matthew 10:1)
* "So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving." (Colossians 2:6-7)
* "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Calvin: Nor, indeed, was anything farther from the intention of the holy teachers, whom they falsely obtrude upon us, than to maintain distinctly that churches exist, as by hereditary right, wherever bishops have been uniformly succeeded by bishops.

The continuity was doctrinal. It wasn’t a guarantee that everyone in each individual church would be a perfect saint. This is patristic teaching (based on biblical teaching). If Calvin wishes to reject it, then he needs to at least give us a solid reason why. Thus far, he has completely failed to do so.

But while it was without controversy that no change had been made in doctrine from the beginning down to their day, they assumed it to be a sufficient refutation of all their errors, that they were opposed to the doctrine maintained constantly, and with unanimous consent, even by the apostles themselves. They have, therefore, no longer any ground for proceeding to make a gloss of the name of the Church, which we regard with due reverence; but when we come to definition, not only (to use the common expression) does the water adhere to them, but they stick in their own mire, because they substitute a vile prostitute for the sacred spouse of Christ.

This is the claim, but why is it believed? At what point did this true Church become so apostate that it can’t even be called a Church anymore? Apart from that being an impossibility, in faith, because of strong biblical teaching on indefectibility, it is absurd even from a strictly historical viewpoint for an entity to, all of a sudden, become the opposite of itself: the mirror image of what it had always claimed to be. In what year did the Catholic Church supposedly reject Jesus Christ? When did idolatry become firmly entrenched in the Mass and weekly worship of Christians?

Etc., etc. It’s very easy to locate a “Catholic” eucharistic theology and even the sacrifice of the Mass, early and widespread in patristic literature. I’ve done it many times myself. Calvin doesn’t answer those questions: nor do his followers today hardly ever do so, because then the absurdity and ridiculous, self-defeating nature of the anti-Catholic position would be thoroughly manifest.

Indefectibility & Apostolic Succession (vs. Calvin #10)

Calvin relentlessly attacks indefectibility & apostolic succession (knowing that he has to in order for Protestantism to be possible). I think I show that he fails.

www.patheos.com

 

[ScottA]

And yours isn't?

View attachment 40361

No.

 

[ScottA]

@ScottA does not believe in Apostolic Succession which he means that he does not believe the Truth has been passed down to his denomination.

That is not at all true.

I rarely operate based on what I "believe", but rather what I know.

As for Apostolic Succession, I do not "believe" in it, but know it to be true, as "He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”...And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:8-13

The problem is that many, including the Catholic church, have presumed to privately select apostles, etc. of their own choosing rather than as given by the Holy Spirit--which is totally against Christ and the scriptures.