Peter the Rock?

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ScottA

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You’re jumping in and out of context. I was talking about Church’s authoritative interpretation of Scripture – then YOU came up with the “all peoples” clause which has nothing to o with this.

The Bible is a Church compilation – for Jews and Gentiles alike - and was never intended to be a source of division or competing doctrine. God’s purpose. as conveyed through His sacre Word is NOT up for grabs.

Nothing regarding "the church's authoritative interpretation of scripture"--is "out of context." "Scripture" is all encompassing.

But thanks for stating that "His sacred word is not up for grabs"--because that is the issue that the Catholic church has violated by presuming to privately interpret the scriptures, thereby subverting the authority of the Holy Spirit for their own use among their own group of violators. That is the "grab."
 
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Truthnightmare

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Protestant Scholars on Matt. 16:16-19

Matthew is not trying to distance Peter, Petros, from 'this rock,' petra. Rather, the evangelist changes the genders simply because Simon, a male, is given a masculine form of the feminine noun for his new name." --James B. Shelton, letter to the authors, 21 October 1994, 1, in Scott Butler, Norman Dehlgren, and Rev. Mr. David Hess, Jesus Peter and the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy, (Goleta, CA: Queenship, 1996), 23.
I disagree…
As explained in the notes, the two Greek words petros and petra are quite distinct, the former being masculine gender, and the latter feminine. The latter denotes a rock or cliff, in situ, firm and immovable. The former denotes a fragment of it, which one traveler may move with his foot in one direction and another may throw in another. This former word petros is the Greek translation kephas, a stone, which was Peter's name in Aramaic, as was his appellative "Barjona" (John 1:42). See Ap. 94. III. 3.

It is remarkable that there is only one other instance (Luke 22:34) in which our Lord addressed him as "Peter"; but, in all other cases, by his fore-name "Simon", reminding him of what he was before his call, and of the characteristics of his human nature. In that other instance it is used in connection with the coming exhibition of his weakness, in the prediction of his denial of the Lord.

There is thus a special significance in the use of the word "Peter" in Matt. 16:18. It was the name connected with his commission and apostleship; another commission being about to be committed to him. It was not Peter, the man, who would be the foundation, for, as we have said, petra is feminine, and must refer to a feminine noun expressed or implied. that noun could hardly be any other thanhomologia, which means a confession; and it was Peter's confession that was the one subject of the Father's revelation and the Son's confirmation.

Moreover, in 1Cor. 3:11 it has once for all been declared by the Holy Spirit that "OTHER foundation can no man lay than that IS LAID, which is JESUS CHRIST". The earliest known reference to Matt. 16:18 is found in ORIGEN'S Commentary (A.D. 186-253), which is older than any extant Greek manuscript. He says :
"If we also say the same as Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God', not by the instruction of flesh and blood, but by the illumination of the heavenly Father in our hearts, we ourselves become the same thing as Peter.
"If you should think that the whole church was built by God only on that one, Peter, what will you say of John ... or each of the apostles?" (*1)

This is conclusive as to the interpretation. But there are other and later references to these words by AUGUSTINE (A.D. 378), and JEROME (A.D. 305), alike older than any Greek MSS. now extant.
JEROME wrote thus in his exposition (Benedictine ed.) :
"And I tell thee, that thou has said to Me, 'Thou art the Christ', &c., and I tell thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock, &c." (*2)

AUGUSTINE wrote in his Retractationes (Benedictine ed., vol. i, p. 33) :
"I have somewhere said, concerning the apostle Peter, that the Church was founded on him, as a petra, or rock; but I know that I have since very often explained what our Lord said to signify on Him Whom Peter confessed; but between these two opinions, let the reader choose that which is the more probable." (*3)

In AUGUSTINE'S Sermon In die Pentecostis (Benedictine ed., tom. v. p. 1097; also Pusey's Translation, Sermons on the New Testament, vol. i. p. 215), he explains the reason for this retractation in a paraphrastic citation of the whole context :--
"When our Lord had asked His disciples who men said that He was, and when, in reporting the opinions of others, they had said that some said He was John, some Elijah, others Jeremiah or one of the prophets, He said to them : 'But ye, Who do ye say that I am?' Peter (one alone for the rest, one for all) answered, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' This, most excellently, most truly spoken, was deservedly rewarded with this reply : 'Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah, because flesh and blood revealed not this to thee, but My Father Who is in heaven; and I tell thee that thou hast said' : (hast said, observe, hast made confession unto Me : receive therefore the benediction) : 'and I tell thee that thou art Peter; and on this rock I will build My church.'" (*4)

Some have conjectured from these words "tu dixisti" (thou hast said it) that AUGUSTINE and JEROME must have had in the MSS. from which they translated six letters, which they divided into two words "SU EIPS" (*5), taking EIPS as an abbreviation of EIPAS ( = thou hast said). There must have been another division of the same six letters into three words, which was current even then, for both these Fathers add "SU EI PETROS" = thou art Peter; taking the same "PS" as an abbreviation of PETROS.

It is evident, however, that these Fathers give only a paraphrase; and do not profess to be giving an exact quotation. One thing, however, is certain, and that is our only point in this Appendix, viz. that the earliest references made to this passage disclaim all idea of its having any reference to the apostle Peter, but only to HIM Who was the subject of Peter's confession.
E.W. Bullinger
 
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ScottA

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Nobody ever said that the people at Pentecost understood the Apostles by anything other than the Holy Spirit. However – the Holy Spirit used the Apostles to preach to them.

This is how we learn, as they were comanded by Christ to ". . .TEACH all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19-20).

This us Christianity 101 . . .

No. Preaching by the apostles by the Holy Spirit came later. What occurred at Pentecost was general, not specific to the apostles, but general to those of many nations and tongues. Which gave clear understanding of things that "others" could not understand, not by the apostles, but to the apostles as well as many who were not among the eleven. And it is that premise--as it is written, which establishes no exclusivity to the Catholic church, but rather by the selection of the Holy Spirit and Jesus who sent Him. I declare it.
 

The Learner

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What IS THE Rock?

God is THE Rock.
His work IS perfect.
All His ways ARE judgement.
He IS a God of truth.
He is WITHOUT iniquity.
He IS just.
He IS right.

Deut. 32:
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

No human man IS perfect, without iniquity.
All human men ARE born IN SIN, CAN become Forgiven and perfect- ED IN Christ.

Aramaic…Cephas….meaning A “stone”.
Greek…….Pedros…..meaning A “stone”.
English…. Peter……..meaning A “stone”.

The Rock IS the unwavering Holy Perfection of God.

God IN His WISDOM teaches (human Created men) ABOUT God, (who IS Invisible),
In a manner of things men UNDERSTAND in their daily lives.

Men build with tangible, physical, visible, rocks, stones, pebbles, mortar, stick, mud, sand….etc….and withers, crumbles, dissolves, etc.

Gods builds with what is spirit, invisible, powerful, etc….and everlasting.

A ROCK is equated to power and strength that never withers, crumbles, dissolves, etc.

The Rock that never withers, crumbles, dissolves, etc…IS: God, IS; Gods Word. IS: Gods Power….

Christ’s Church is BUILT on:
Gods WORD, Gods POWER….not Peter.

Christ Jesus IS the First Member of HIS Church.

Peter was the First Human Member of Christ Jesus’ Church.

And within MINUTES…the rest of Jesus’ Disciples gathered with Him…became Members of Christ Jesus’ Church.

And thereafter ANY man who BELIEVES IN God, AND the Jesus IS the Christ and begotten Son of God AND Heartfully CONFESSES their Belief…
THEY ALSO are “AS stones” one upon the other, ADDED to the Membership OF: Christ Jesus’ Church.

Some men build “their” PHYSICAL church UPON human men, even UPON the bones of Dead human men, calling human men “their ROCK”, calling human men “their Holy Father”, calling “their man-build church” by whatever name they select, and adding members, “they” allow.

And Some men elect to JOIN, Christ Jesus’ Spiritual Church, His Church, He is spiritually adding member by member, and THEY in agreement WITH Christ Jesus, acknowledging ONLY ONE “Holy Father”, who IS God Himself.

Freewill IS afforded to all of manKIND, to choose TO Believe Gods Word, or mans Word. Gods Way, or mans Way. Gods Church or mans Church. God the Holy Father or mans holy father. God without Beginning or God having a mother.
“First of all, sir,” I said, “explain this to me: What is the meaning of the rock and the gate?” “This rock,” he answered, “and this gate are the Son of God.” “How, sir?” I said; “the rock is old, and the gate is new.” “Listen,” he said, “and understand, O ignorant man. The Son of God is older than all His creatures, so that He was a fellow-councillor with the Father in His work of creation: for this reason is He old.” “And why is the gate new, sir?” I said. “Because,” he answered, “He became manifest in the last days of the dispensation: for this reason the gate was made new, that they who are to be saved by it might enter into the kingdom of God. You saw,” he said, “that those stones which came in through the gate were used for the building of the tower, and that those which did not come, were again thrown back to their own place?” “I saw, sir,” I replied.
 
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The Learner

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Actually, sola scriptura is all throughout the Bible.

Tell me, is Peter the Rock upon which Christ is building His Church?
Back then one dug down to bedrock (Jesus), Foundation consited of large rock at edges with Jesus as the Cornerstone. Ot Prophets were the base layer including the other corners. Then came the Apostles with Peter being the first layed down.

Ephesians 2:20
You believers are like a building that God owns. That building was built on the foundation that the apostles and prophets prepared. Christ Jesus himself is the most important stone in that building.
 

Taken

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“First of all, sir,” I said, “explain this to me: What is the meaning of the rock and the gate?” “This rock,” he answered, “and this gate are the Son of God.” “How, sir?” I said; “the rock is old, and the gate is new.” “Listen,” he said, “and understand, O ignorant man. The Son of God is older than all His creatures, so that He was a fellow-councillor with the Father in His work of creation: for this reason is He old.” “And why is the gate new, sir?” I said. “Because,” he answered, “He became manifest in the last days of the dispensation: for this reason the gate was made new, that they who are to be saved by it might enter into the kingdom of God. You saw,” he said, “that those stones which came in through the gate were used for the building of the tower, and that those which did not come, were again thrown back to their own place?” “I saw, sir,” I replied.

Not interested in Greek Mythology.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Actually, sola scriptura is all throughout the Bible.

Tell me, is Peter the Rock upon which Christ is building His Church?
Fist - YOU show me where Sola Sctipyura is taight "all throughout" the Bible.

The Bible teaches that Scripture IS authoritative. There is simply NO place in Scripture that teaches it is it our
"Sole authority".
 

BreadOfLife

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Nothing regarding "the church's authoritative interpretation of scripture"--is "out of context." "Scripture" is all encompassing.
Scriptur itself tells us that it is NOT (2 Thess. 2:16, John 21:25).
But thanks for stating that "His sacred word is not up for grabs"--because that is the issue that the Catholic church has violated by presuming to privately interpret the scriptures, thereby subverting the authority of the Holy Spirit for their own use among their own group of violators. That is the "grab."
And unless you're being dishonest, as usual - you would know that I was talking about the iterpretation of Scripture. This is at the root of your tens of thousands of Protestant denominations.
 
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Marymog

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That is not at all true.

I rarely operate based on what I "believe", but rather what I know.

As for Apostolic Succession, I do not "believe" in it, but know it to be true, as "He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”...And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
" Ephesians 4:8-13

The problem is that many, including the Catholic church, have presumed to privately select apostles, etc. of their own choosing rather than as given by the Holy Spirit--which is totally against Christ and the scriptures.
I like your confidence Scott.

I don't understand your privately select apostles to their own choosing statement.
 
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Taken

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Fist - YOU show me where Sola Sctipyura is taight "all throughout" the Bible.

The Bible teaches that Scripture IS authoritative. There is simply NO place in Scripture that teaches it is it our
"Sole authority".

Yawn.

Scripture IS the source to Trust for TESTING, VERIFYING, what one hears regarding Gods Word.

Scripture itself reveals Scriptures Trustworthiness.
2 Tim 3:16.

If you do not TRUST Scripture, why bother EVER “quoting” it?

If you have some other source to verify Scripture….what is that source?

2 Tim 3:
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 
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David in NJ

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Back then one dug down to bedrock (Jesus), Foundation consited of large rock at edges with Jesus as the Cornerstone. Ot Prophets were the base layer including the other corners. Then came the Apostles with Peter being the first layed down.

Ephesians 2:20
You believers are like a building that God owns. That building was built on the foundation that the apostles and prophets prepared. Christ Jesus himself is the most important stone in that building.
BINGO
BANGO
ZINGO
ZANGO

That's the way to TANGO!
 
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David in NJ

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Well, then I guess there was no Foundation of the Church for the first 20+ years after Pentecost, before the first of the NT letters and gospels got written. How in the world did the Church ever manage to survive?!

@RedFan @BreadOfLife @The Learner @Philip James

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

How in the world did the Apostle John ever get the notion to write this???

Like, did he read some book that spurred his vivid imagination???

Maybe he had a subscription to 'My Daily Bread' !!!
 
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David in NJ

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Yawn.

Scripture IS the source to Trust for TESTING, VERIFYING, what one hears regarding Gods Word.

Scripture itself reveals Scriptures Trustworthiness.
2 Tim 3:16.

If you do not TRUST Scripture, why bother EVER “quoting” it?

If you have some other source to verify Scripture….what is that source?

2 Tim 3:
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
i had a friend named Yawn.

Oops!, His name was Yahn - nevermind........
 

Taken

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Scriptur itself tells us that it is NOT (2 Thess. 2:16, John 21:25).

And unless you're being dishonest, as usual - you would know that I was talking about the iterpretation of Scripture. This is at the root of your tens of thousands of Protestant denominations.

Protestant IS a Branch of Christianity, with
Tens of thousands of Protestant’s calling their churches by whatever name they want…
each church establishes their own rules.
Individuals believe God is their Holy Father and Christ Jesus is their advocate.
Does the Scripture mention Protestant? Nope.
Does Scripture mention God is the Holy Father?
Yes
Does Scripture mention Christ Jesus is a mans advocate?
Yes


Is no different than Catholic IS a Branch of Christianity., with Tens of thousands Catholic’s calling their churches by whatever name they want…
Each church establishes their own rules.
Individuals believe the pope is their holy father and Mary is the mother of God and advocate.

Does Scripture mention Catholic?
Nope.
Does scripture mention “human men” are a “holy father”?
Nope.
Does scripture mention Mary is the mother of God?
Nope.
Does scripture mention Mary is an advocate?
Nope.

What material are you getting such information?
 

Taken

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Calvin abolished dancing.

So? Who cares? People like to be around LIKE behaving people. And some people LIKE to be told what they CAN and CAN NOT DO.

Some people dance beautifully, tastefully, incredibly, and some vulgarly. Everyone has freewill to DO as THEY choose, or JOIN a group that will tell them what they can and can not do.
 
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The Learner

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Protestant IS a Branch of Christianity, with
Tens of thousands of Protestant’s calling their churches by whatever name they want…
each church establishes their own rules.
Individuals believe God is their Holy Father and Christ Jesus is their advocate.
Does the Scripture mention Protestant? Nope.
Does Scripture mention God is the Holy Father?
Yes
Does Scripture mention Christ Jesus is a mans advocate?
Yes


Is no different than Catholic IS a Branch of Christianity., with Tens of thousands Catholic’s calling their churches by whatever name they want…
Each church establishes their own rules.
Individuals believe the pope is their holy father and Mary is the mother of God and advocate.

Does Scripture mention Catholic?
Nope.
Does scripture mention “human men” are a “holy father”?
Nope.
Does scripture mention Mary is the mother of God?
Nope.
Does scripture mention Mary is an advocate?
Nope.

What material are you getting such information?
"Tens of thousands" discredits everything you say.
 

ScottA

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Scriptur itself tells us that it is NOT (2 Thess. 2:16, John 21:25).
:rolleyes: Those verses do not address the fact that interpretation by context includes all of scripture.

And unless you're being dishonest, as usual - you would know that I was talking about the iterpretation of Scripture. This is at the root of your tens of thousands of Protestant denominations.
Yes, we are talking about interpretation, which in the case of Catholics is "private interpretation", as they presume to limit the gifts of the Holy Spirit to their own private group.

The fact that you may all agree on one "private interpretation"--is collusion...which, indeed, many other denominations are also guilty of.
 
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