Peter the Rock?

[JohnDB]

To the best of my knowledge we have covered this already sooooo there is no "elephant in the room".

Mary

Yes there is....apparently you still refuse to see it.

Just saying.

The Pan Temple (formerly a Baal temple) at Cesarea Phillipi is the only perfect explanation. It has the spring being fed by the Styx River, pagan sex orgies, and a stronghold of the worst of humanity.

And where the references are a perfect match to the dialogue...the "rock" the church is built upon is also the parts that went unsaid. Especially since what was said by Peter at the 3rd year mark of being an Apostle was a foregone conclusion. (Miracles being performed by one and all kinda makes it that way.)

But carry on....nobody has any value in your eyes....everyone needs to be dismissed by you except only to be recognized for their function of being chastised for not being a Mary worshipping Catholic.

Sorry, not sorry....I'm a firm believer of the real rock that grants me access to the store rooms of Heaven.

 

[Marymog]

Yes there is....apparently you still refuse to see it.

Just saying.

The Pan Temple (formerly a Baal temple) at Cesarea Phillipi is the only perfect explanation. It has the spring being fed by the Styx River, pagan sex orgies, and a stronghold of the worst of humanity.

And where the references are a perfect match to the dialogue...the "rock" the church is built upon is also the parts that went unsaid. Especially since what was said by Peter at the 3rd year mark of being an Apostle was a foregone conclusion. (Miracles being performed by one and all kinda makes it that way.)

But carry on....nobody has any value in your eyes....everyone needs to be dismissed by you except only to be recognized for their function of being chastised for not being a Mary worshipping Catholic.

Sorry, not sorry....I'm a firm believer of the real rock that grants me access to the store rooms of Heaven.

I am not refusing anything or dismissing you JDB. I acknowledged your interpretation of that passage. I just don't agree with it. To me, your interpretation does not hold "value"; that does NOT mean that "nobody has any value" in my eyes....I Just don't value your interpretation in this specific discussion.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "worship" when it comes to Christians having great respect, adoration and love of Mary for the last 2,000 years. God did; that is why he chose her. Jesus did! Scripture says that Mary is full of grace and blessed amongst women. We agree with Scripture. That is not equivalent to worshiping her.

Mary

 

[Illuminator]

But carry on....nobody has any value in your eyes....everyone needs to be dismissed by you except only to be recognized for their function of being chastised for not being a Mary worshipping Catholic.

Another stupid, arrogant insult that we are sick of hearing.

 

[JohnDB]

I am not refusing anything or dismissing you JDB. I acknowledged your interpretation of that passage. I just don't agree with it. To me, your interpretation does not hold "value"; that does NOT mean that "nobody has any value" in my eyes....I Just don't value your interpretation in this specific discussion.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "worship" when it comes to Christians having great respect, adoration and love of Mary for the last 2,000 years. God did; that is why he chose her. Jesus did! Scripture says that Mary is full of grace and blessed amongst women. We agree with Scripture. That is not equivalent to worshiping her.

Mary

"Mary worshipping " is a highly specific descriptive adjective that is unique to Catholics. No other denomination does so except for Catholics. So it's an apt descriptive adjective. Get over it.

The "Hail Mary" was said first by Elizabeth. (Although Catholics add expensively to what she said)

Like I said before....
Cesarea Phillipi is the elephant in the room...the three year mark of following who both John's and Andrew all said that Jesus was the Messiah....not to mention the Mount of Transfiguration where Elijah and Moses both said the same things.

Peter saying that Jesus is the Messiah is a given and anticlimactic.

And scriptures do not have a single unimportant word or letter considering the cost of writing. A single Torah scroll was an entire year's salary for a family. The method of writing was extremely compact. (You made the most out of the bandwidth available)
Cesarea Phillipi had the reputation of the World's largest orgy. The reputation of the spring was that it was fed by the River Styx. Romans put an idol (hellenization process) at every water source.

But....none of this is in scripture. However they dug up yet another Pan Mask just a decade ago. (In that area) Meaning that this information is not unknown or obscure. God has seen to it.

That God would build his church on a person is incongruent with everything else God has done. That He would make the telling of how good Jesus and God are in the face of horrific sin is the key principle the building his church of "called out ones" is based upon IS CORE AND CONGRUENT to the church. Nothing else. Not Peter, not simply the name tag or cardboard cutout "Jesus"....but that principle of telling how good God/Jesus is while ignoring the sin. This is wonderful and perfect. Congruent with Paul : "There is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus"

A whole lot of things are congruent with this....nothing in scripture is congruent with yours....sorry!

 

[JohnDB]

Another stupid, arrogant insult that we are sick of hearing.

When the shoe fits AND has your name on it....not much you can do about it. Might as well own it.

 

[Illuminator]

"Mary worshipping " is a highly specific descriptive adjective that is unique to Catholics. No other denomination does so except for Catholics. So it's an apt descriptive adjective. Get over it.

The "Hail Mary" was said first by Elizabeth. (Although Catholics add expensively to what she said)

Like I said before....
Cesarea Phillipi is the elephant in the room...the three year mark of following who both John's and Andrew all said that Jesus was the Messiah....not to mention the Mount of Transfiguration where Elijah and Moses both said the same things.

Peter saying that Jesus is the Messiah is a given and anticlimactic.

And scriptures do not have a single unimportant word or letter considering the cost of writing. A single Torah scroll was an entire year's salary for a family. The method of writing was extremely compact. (You made the most out of the bandwidth available)
Cesarea Phillipi had the reputation of the World's largest orgy. The reputation of the spring was that it was fed by the River Styx. Romans put an idol (hellenization process) at every water source.

But....none of this is in scripture. However they dug up yet another Pan Mask just a decade ago. (In that area) Meaning that this information is not unknown or obscure. God has seen to it.

That God would build his church on a person is incongruent with everything else God has done. That He would make the telling of how good Jesus and God are in the face of horrific sin is the key principle the building his church of "called out ones" is based upon IS CORE AND CONGRUENT to the church. Nothing else. Not Peter, not simply the name tag or cardboard cutout "Jesus"....but that principle of telling how good God/Jesus is while ignoring the sin. This is wonderful and perfect. Congruent with Paul : "There is therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus"

A whole lot of things are congruent with this....nothing in scripture is congruent with yours....sorry!

Dismantling one lie after another is a waste of time. Good bye.

​

 

[Marymog]

"Mary worshipping " is a highly specific descriptive adjective that is unique to Catholics. No other denomination does so except for Catholics. So it's an apt descriptive adjective. Get over it.

The "Hail Mary" was said first by Elizabeth. (Although Catholics add expensively to what she said)

Thanks for your opinion, JDB.

You are wrong in that holding Mary in high regard is a Catholic thing: Protestant views on Mary - Wikipedia

You are wrong...get over it.

Expensively add?

Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God," What in that is not true?

Luke 1:28 Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Also translated as, Greetings, you favored with grace! The Lord is with you."


Sooo it looks like you have a problem with Christians repeating words from Scripture?

 

[JohnDB]

Dismantling one lie after another is a waste of time. Good bye.

View attachment 39771​

 

[ScottA]

Scripture does not say that God gave each individual "freedom" to personally interpret Scripture and think we are right because we think we are being guided by the Holy Spirit.

That is not a true statement.

Scripture (by Joel) tells of God pouring out His spirit upon all flesh--not just Peter, Popes, or leaders of the church. Which was then confirmed by both Jesus and Peter, and by historical record on the day of Pentecost.

In addition, there is much more written about the general distribution of the Spirit (which apparently you selectively do not believe). A good example is here in 1 Corinthians 12:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.​

​

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.​

​

Unity and Diversity in One Body​

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.​

​

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?​

​

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.​

​

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way (love).​

 

[Wrangler]

The men of The Church believe they are being guided by the Holy Spirit and they act per the dictates of their conscious. They meet YOUR criteria.

Wrong. Where you are wrong is that you extend your circle of freedom to include oppressing others. Example: You deny God's Spirit functions outside your denomination.

 

[ScottA]

Dear Scott,

Scripture does not promise that YOU or any other Christian can personally and properly interpret Scripture. I am not mocking you. I am telling you a FACT. You think you are being mocked because you think the Holy Spirit is guiding you personally into the proper interpretation of Scripture. If I had a dollar for every time I heard that, I would have several thousand dollars. You and all the men from the Reformation would each owe me a dollar. If you were alive during their time you would have opposing books on what the Holy Spirit told YOU....which would be different than what the Holy Spirit told them. HEY, that's a great idea. Write another book Scott. In your book reveal what the Holy Spirit told you and then do a side by side of the Reformers Holy Spirit revelations. Show everyone in the world how the Reformers were wrong and the Holy Spirit lied to them and how you are right.

Mary

I was not referring to me as being mocked by you--although that too is quite telling--but to the fact that you mock and scoff against the Holy Spirit apparently in anyone but the leaders of the church...which is not even biblical.

As for the scriptures, you also apparently have not read them all. Here is one you likely missed:

1 Corinthians 12:​

​

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.​

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.​

Unity and Diversity in One Body​

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.​

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?​

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.​

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way (love).​

 

[Wrangler]

If what he (ScottA) says is true, we have no right to oppose him. You are right. When ScottA says something true, I don't oppose him!

Wrong. You have opposed him telling the truth in this thread many, many times.

 

[ScottA]

“Satan” simply means “adversary”. Peter’s advice to Jesus – although well-intentioned, we adversarial.

Showing that Peter was a flawed human being doesn’t “disqualify” Him from any leadership role that Jesus chose to bestow upon him.

Good, that's a start. Of which I also stated.

I’m not sure who “You” is – but I’ve never claimed nor even hinted that I am my “own” Authority.

Let’s NOT add bearing false witness to your erroneous positions.

I meant "you all" as a religious sect. Since you insist that the it is the leaders of your sect that are in charge, I specifically meant you who believe them to be of their "own authority."

Nothing false, just what you have projected.

 

[Marymog]

I was not referring to me as being mocked by you--all that too is quite telling--but to the fact that you mock and scoff against the Holy Spirit apparently in anyone but the leaders of the church...which is not even biblical.

Scott,

I LOVE your word games Scottie.

You THINK (a feeling in your tummy?) the Holy Spirit is speaking thru you. So when I mock and scoff against YOU then you THINK I am mocking and scoffing against the Holy Spirit. Quite telling indeed.....


Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,...

The "flock" are members of The Church. So to rephrase that vs here is what it is saying: Overseers, Keep watch over yourselves and over all the members of The Church (the flock), of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. YOU are not the leader of The Church. I suspect you are not even an overseer of the church you attend (assuming you attend a church). Which means that passage does not pertain to YOU.

I know that's not in YOUR bible, but it is in the Christian bible. It's not biblical to YOU because you throw out anything biblical that proves you wrong.

Do you ever get tired of being proven wrong Scottie?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Wrong. You have opposed him telling the truth in this thread many, many times.

Lol Wrangler.....soooooo good ol' Scottie is telling the truth? REALLY? Wow....

Or is Scottie telling the truth only when YOU agree with him?

When you don't agree with him, he isn't telling the truth!! Me thinks THAT is the truth.

 

[Marymog]

I was not referring to me as being mocked by you--all that too is quite telling--but to the fact that you mock and scoff against the Holy Spirit apparently in anyone but the leaders of the church...which is not even biblical.

As for the scriptures, you also apparently have not read them all. Here is one you likely missed:

1 Corinthians 12:​

​

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.​

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.​

​

I know. I KNOW! You have this feeling in your tummy that YOU have a "spiritual gift". You feel you have been given the gift of wisdom and knowledge!!! I get it....You have made that VERY CLEAR.

Help me out here Scott. When you reveal to all of us what the Holy Spirit told YOU and what YOU reveal is opposite of what other men have revealed...WHO should I believe? After all, those men have the same feeling in their tummy that you had. Which one of you are twisting Scripture and leading the flock astray? I know you don't believe YOU are. Sooooo I guess your answer is anyone that disagree's with YOU is twisting Scripture. I am right.....Aren't I Scott?

Can you not see the unbiblical dilemma you are in Scottie?

 

[Marymog]

Wrong. Where you are wrong is that you extend your circle of freedom to include oppressing others. Example: You deny God's Spirit functions outside your denomination.

You crack me up Wrangler. Telling me what I believe and The Church teaches.

The Church doesn't teach and I have never said that God's Spirit does not function outside my denomination. Soooo, ONCE AGAIN, you are wrong. But wait a minute... You have been told this before sooooo that doesn't mean you are wrong. You are just flat out lying about what The Church teaches.

Tisk tisk! What does Scripture say about bearing false witness?

 

[Marymog]

That is not a true statement.

Scripture (by Joel) tells of God pouring out His spirit upon all flesh--not just Peter, Popes, or leaders of the church. Which was then confirmed by both Jesus and Peter, and by historical record on the day of Pentecost.

In addition, there is much more written about the general distribution of the Spirit (which apparently you selectively do not believe). A good example is here in 1 Corinthians 12:

1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.​

​

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.​

​

Unity and Diversity in One Body​

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.​

​

15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?​

​

20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.​

​

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way (love).​

NOTHING in those passages say that Christians have individual "freedom" to personally interpret Scripture!

By using Scripture, you are trying to convince me that the Holy Spirit has distributed to YOU the gift of prophecy OR wisdom or both. Well, using your twisted interpretation of Scripture and I am telling you that you are wrong. And I know I am right because the Holy Spirit distributed to ME the gift of recognizing wolves in sheep's clothing. My gift trumps your gift....

 

[ScottA]

Scott,

I LOVE your word games Scottie.

You THINK (a feeling in your tummy?) the Holy Spirit is speaking thru you. So when I mock and scoff against YOU then you THINK I am mocking and scoffing against the Holy Spirit. Quite telling indeed.....


Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,...

The "flock" are members of The Church. So to rephrase that vs here is what it is saying: Overseers, Keep watch over yourselves and over all the members of The Church (the flock), of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. YOU are not the leader of The Church. I suspect you are not even an overseer of the church you attend (assuming you attend a church). Which means that passage does not pertain to YOU.

I know that's not in YOUR bible, but it is in the Christian bible. It's not biblical to YOU because you throw out anything biblical that proves you wrong.

Do you ever get tired of being proven wrong Scottie?

Mary

You assume too much. Your loss.

 

[ScottA]

I know. I KNOW! You have this feeling in your tummy that YOU have a "spiritual gift". You feel you have been given the gift of wisdom and knowledge!!! I get it....You have made that VERY CLEAR.

Help me out here Scott. When you reveal to all of us what the Holy Spirit told YOU and what YOU reveal is opposite of what other men have revealed...WHO should I believe? After all, those men have the same feeling in their tummy that you had. Which one of you are twisting Scripture and leading the flock astray? I know you don't believe YOU are. Sooooo I guess your answer is anyone that disagree's with YOU is twisting Scripture. I am right.....Aren't I Scott?

Can you not see the unbiblical dilemma you are in Scottie?

You decide your own fate by who and what you gravitate to. Which is not a dilemma I have established, but He whose hands we are all in. I have only told you what you did not know about it.