Peter the Rock?

[Truthnightmare]

An obvious TYPO . . .
You will find ALL of thois information in Rev. 21.

You should hsaver ALREADY known these verses . . .

So you start off by saying “Time for a Bible lesson” then you mistakenly quote the wrong chapter, then tell me I should have known? You’re giving the Bible lesson dude.

 

[RedFan]

If I may ask you Redfan, why don’t you believe the church was built on Peter?

Because I find Matthew 16:18 ambiguous.

Because the play on words in the Greek -- the Greek that Jesus didn't speak to Peter -- just isn't definitive either way, if it is even possible in Aramaic.

Because I doubt Paul was aware, when he wrote to the Ephesians, that Jesus spoke such words to Peter (Matthew's gospel wasn't written yet), and so was likely unaware that his "cornerstone" identification with Christ was inconsistent with either one of the two most plausible interpretations of Matt. 16:18 (Peter himself, and Peter's confession of faith).

Because Augustine and John Chrystostom -- both of whom I respect -- thought Peter's confession rather than Peter was the intended object.

Because no translation of Matthew I have ever seen translates "Petros" as "pebble."

I just haven't made up my mind on this.

 

[Truthnightmare]

An obvious TYPO . . .
You will find ALL of thois information in Rev. 21.

You should hsaver ALREADY known these verses . . .

You do understand that the word of God is here to correct us all.

2 Timothy
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So hear is where your error is, take it or leave.

You think Peter was the head of the church? The rock the church was built upon. The problem is there is a passage you are not familiar with, so you haven’t received your correction.

Let’s look at it…

Luke 22:24-26 (Jesus speaking with the 12 Apostles)
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger (KJV)

This simple passage destroys everything you have said… Jesus told the apostles to not have a leader or a head. Check and mate friend.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Because I find Matthew 16:18 ambiguous.

Because the play on words in the Greek -- the Greek that Jesus didn't speak to Peter -- just isn't definitive either way, if it is even possible in Aramaic.

Because I doubt Paul was aware, when he wrote to the Ephesians, that Jesus spoke such words to Peter (Matthew's gospel wasn't written yet), and so was likely unaware that his "cornerstone" identification with Christ was inconsistent with either one of the two most plausible interpretations of Matt. 16:18 (Peter himself, and Peter's confession of faith).

Because Augustine and John Chrystostom -- both of whom I respect -- thought Peter's confession rather than Peter was the intended object.

Because no translation of Matthew I have ever seen translates "Petros" as "pebble."

I just haven't made up my mind on this.

Fair enough… take this into consideration…

Despite what the Catholic Church states, the Catholic Church cannot really trace it's roots all the way back to Peter one of the Twelve Apostles. And while the Roman Catholic hierarchy was founded about A.D. 350, after Constantine; The first real Catholic Church was not formed until A.D. 590-604 with the first real Pope being Gregory I (who refused the title!). The first Roman Bishop to adopt the title "Pope" was Boniface III in A.D. 610. So before that the world new nothing of a Pope.

Naturally, the Pope of Roman Catholicism could not make the claims to godly power on earth as he does today (the binding and loosing of souls in Purgatory, possessing the Keys to Heaven, Christ's Vicar on earth, sole authority to interpret Scripture, Sainting deceased people, Extreme Unction...) if it were disclosed that he is not in a direct line from Apostle Peter (Not that the wild claims to power by the Popery could ever be reconciled with Biblical Scripture anyway.

But it should be noted that Jesus did NOT appoint Peter to the headship of the Apostles and expressly forbade any such notion, as stated in:

Luke 22:24-26 (Jesus speaking with the 12 Apostles)
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger (KJV)

(See also: Eph 1:22-23, 1st Cor 3:11, and Col 1:18).​

But there were Christian Churches starting in 37 A.D. when there was established by Joseph of Arimathaea the first above ground church in the world at Glastonbury. Glastonbury lies in the heart of Somerset County, in southwest England. In early British times Glastonbury was actually a small island (the waters have since dried up - as late as the early part of the 16th century).

LONG BEFORE THERE WAS EITHER A PROTESTANT OR ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE EXISTED AN IRISH CHURCH:

This is a true story which very few have any knowledge of today. The facts of its existence have been almost totally erased from history. Although, almost forgotten by those who should be concerned the most, there is substantial evidence extant to prove it's existence beyond all doubt. Actually the Irish church was established in 37 A.D. To have an understanding of the Irish church is an all important fact in understanding Irish genealogy. To get started with this phase of our study, we are going to quote again from the book, Father Abraham''s Children, by Perry Edwards Powell, Ph. D., pages 140-142:

"Now we come to the missionary movement of Joseph of Arimathea, who was appointed by Philip the apostle. After the passion of his Nephew [crucifixion of Jesus Christ], persecution fell heavily upon the infant church. The Jew and the Roman were bitter persecutors but he knew where there was no persecution, but protection. However, he was seized, and since the Jew could not kill [under the Law directly], he and Lazarus and Mary and Martha his sisters, Mary Magdalene, Marcella, Maximin, and others, all objects of especial Jewish hostility, were ''exposed to the sea in a vessel without sail or oars.'' They drifted to Marseilles, southern Gaul, where they arrived in a famished condition. The Arimathean knew the territory and friendly traders, and was aided on his way, the destination of which was now Britain. Here they eventually arrived and came to rest in Ynis Avalon, Glastonbury, where he rested and soon began his labors for his Nephew [Jesus Christ]. The year was 37 A.D. On his tomb is the epitaph: Ad Britannos veni post Christum sepelivi ---- Docui ---- Quievi. ''I came to the Britons after I had buried the Christ. I taught. I have entered on my rest.''"

Thus was established the first above ground church in the world at Glastonbury, in Britain. We are sure there are many who have never heard this particular story of Joseph of Arimathaea, and fewer yet understand its importance. For more insight on Joseph of Arimathaea, we will quote, The Traditions of Glastonbury, by E. Raymond Capt M.A., page 22:

 

[Augustin56]

Fair enough… take this into consideration…

Despite what the Catholic Church states, the Catholic Church cannot really trace it's roots all the way back to Peter one of the Twelve Apostles. And while the Roman Catholic hierarchy was founded about A.D. 350, after Constantine; The first real Catholic Church was not formed until A.D. 590-604 with the first real Pope being Gregory I (who refused the title!). The first Roman Bishop to adopt the title "Pope" was Boniface III in A.D. 610. So before that the world new nothing of a Pope.

Naturally, the Pope of Roman Catholicism could not make the claims to godly power on earth as he does today (the binding and loosing of souls in Purgatory, possessing the Keys to Heaven, Christ's Vicar on earth, sole authority to interpret Scripture, Sainting deceased people, Extreme Unction...) if it were disclosed that he is not in a direct line from Apostle Peter (Not that the wild claims to power by the Popery could ever be reconciled with Biblical Scripture anyway.

But it should be noted that Jesus did NOT appoint Peter to the headship of the Apostles and expressly forbade any such notion, as stated in:


But there were Christian Churches starting in 37 A.D. when there was established by Joseph of Arimathaea the first above ground church in the world at Glastonbury. Glastonbury lies in the heart of Somerset County, in southwest England. In early British times Glastonbury was actually a small island (the waters have since dried up - as late as the early part of the 16th century).

LONG BEFORE THERE WAS EITHER A PROTESTANT OR ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE EXISTED AN IRISH CHURCH:

This is a true story which very few have any knowledge of today. The facts of its existence have been almost totally erased from history. Although, almost forgotten by those who should be concerned the most, there is substantial evidence extant to prove it's existence beyond all doubt. Actually the Irish church was established in 37 A.D. To have an understanding of the Irish church is an all important fact in understanding Irish genealogy. To get started with this phase of our study, we are going to quote again from the book, Father Abraham''s Children, by Perry Edwards Powell, Ph. D., pages 140-142:


Thus was established the first above ground church in the world at Glastonbury, in Britain. We are sure there are many who have never heard this particular story of Joseph of Arimathaea, and fewer yet understand its importance. For more insight on Joseph of Arimathaea, we will quote, The Traditions of Glastonbury, by E. Raymond Capt M.A., page 22:

Truthnightmare, I'm coming in a little late in the game here, which is why I went to the end of the thread to start.

I have to point out that this nonsense about the Church starting around 350 A.D. is demonstrably false, however. There was but one Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity. Then, the Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D. (Here's a good video that explains the Great Schism then:

)

The Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ. St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch ordained and appointed by St. Peter (the first man to hold the office we refer to as Pope) was captured by the Romans. While they were transporting him to be martyred for the faith, he wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107-110 A.D. (long before Constantine was born), referring to the "Catholic Church," not in such a manner as if he were coining the term, but in such a manner in which he fully expected the Smyrnaeans to understand what he was talking about. It says in paragraph 8, "Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

See the entire letter here: https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf

 

[Truthnightmare]

Truthnightmare, I'm coming in a little late in the game here, which is why I went to the end of the thread to start.

I have to point out that this nonsense about the Church starting around 350 A.D. is demonstrably false, however. There was but one Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity. Then, the Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D. (Here's a good video that explains the Great Schism then:

)

The Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ. St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch ordained and appointed by St. Peter (the first man to hold the office we refer to as Pope) was captured by the Romans. While they were transporting him to be martyred for the faith, he wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107-110 A.D. (long before Constantine was born), referring to the "Catholic Church," not in such a manner as if he were coining the term, but in such a manner in which he fully expected the Smyrnaeans to understand what he was talking about. It says in paragraph 8, "Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

See the entire letter here: https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf

Hello….

We often have to start at the back of a thread or it will take an eternity to catch up… no worries.

107- 110 AD let’s take a step back…

• B.C. 55 Invasion of Britain by Rome under Julius Caesar.
• A.D. 37 Joseph of Arimathaea establishes first above ground church in the world at Glastonbury, in Britain.
• A.D. 43 Edict of Emperor Claudius to exterminate Christian Britain.
• A.D. 52 Caractacus taken prisoner to Rome along with Bran, his three sons, and daughters -- including Linus and Claudia of {2 Tim. 4:21}.
• A.D. 53 Pudens and Claudia (Gladys) of {2 Tim. 4:21} marry.
• A.D. 60 The Boadicean War.

All before 107 A.D.

Moreover; you seem to be in disagreement with your own historians….

"Cardinal Baronius, the great Church historian, and most learned librarian of the Vatican, in his Ecclesiastical Annals, on which he spent 30 years, under the year A.D. 35, states that in that year Joseph of Arimathea, Lazarus. Mary, Martha, Marcella, their maid, and Maximin (blind from birth until healed by Yahshua) a disciple, were put by the Jews into a boat without sails and oars, and floated down the Mediterranean and landed at Marseilles, and thence Joseph and his company crossed into Britain, and preached the Gospel there, and finally died there."

 

[Augustin56]

Hello….

We often have to start at the back of a thread or it will take an eternity to catch up… no worries.

107- 110 AD let’s take a step back…

• B.C. 55 Invasion of Britain by Rome under Julius Caesar.
• A.D. 37 Joseph of Arimathaea establishes first above ground church in the world at Glastonbury, in Britain.
• A.D. 43 Edict of Emperor Claudius to exterminate Christian Britain.
• A.D. 52 Caractacus taken prisoner to Rome along with Bran, his three sons, and daughters -- including Linus and Claudia of {2 Tim. 4:21}.
• A.D. 53 Pudens and Claudia (Gladys) of {2 Tim. 4:21} marry.
• A.D. 60 The Boadicean War.

All before 107 A.D.

Moreover; you seem to be in disagreement with your own historians….

"Cardinal Baronius, the great Church historian, and most learned librarian of the Vatican, in his Ecclesiastical Annals, on which he spent 30 years, under the year A.D. 35, states that in that year Joseph of Arimathea, Lazarus. Mary, Martha, Marcella, their maid, and Maximin (blind from birth until healed by Yahshua) a disciple, were put by the Jews into a boat without sails and oars, and floated down the Mediterranean and landed at Marseilles, and thence Joseph and his company crossed into Britain, and preached the Gospel there, and finally died there."

I'm sure you intended to make a point here???

 

[BreadOfLife]

So you start off by saying “Time for a Bible lesson” then you mistakenly quote the wrong chapter, then tell me I should have known? You’re giving the Bible lesson dude.

The sad part os thay YOU should already be familiar with those verses.
But, nit-picking typos is your way of saying. "Gee, I never read that verse."

Haeppy to have been of help . . .

You do understand that the word of God is here to correct us all.

2 Timothy
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So hear is where your error is, take it or leave.

YOU should know better that that . . .

First of all – NOWHERE does the Bible state that the BIBLE is our SOLE Authority.
The Bible DOES, however, state that the Church is our final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

2 Tim. 2:16*17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is USEFUL for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

NOWHERE does this passage make the claim that ONLY Scripture is to be referenced for everything.
As a matter of fact, Paul explicitly points to Scripture and sacred Tradition being on even par:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."
Did you see that??
“… EITHER by and ORAL statement OR BY a letter”.

The false, man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura is a 16th century invention that YOU adhere to instead of the Word of God itself.

You think Peter was the head of the church? The rock the church was built upon. The problem is there is a passage you are not familiar with, so you haven’t received your correction.

Let’s look at it…

Luke 22:24-26 (Jesus speaking with the 12 Apostles)
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger (KJV)

This simple passage destroys everything you have said… Jesus told the apostles to not have a leader or a head. Check and mate friend.

And the Church hasa NEVER taught that Peter exalted HIMSELF, which is what this passage condemns.
It was CHRIST who appointed him as leader. (Mat. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19).

STUDY upir Bible - don'y juy quote it . . .

 

[Truthnightmare]

I'm sure you intended to make a point here???

"Cardinal Baronius, the great Church historian, and most learned librarian of the Vatican, in his Ecclesiastical Annals, on which he spent 30 years, under the year A.D. 35, states that in that year Joseph of Arimathea, Lazarus. Mary, Martha, Marcella, their maid, and Maximin (blind from birth until healed by Yahshua) a disciple, were put by the Jews into a boat without sails and oars, and floated down the Mediterranean and landed at Marseilles, and thence Joseph and his company crossed into Britain, and preached the Gospel there, and finally died there."

Do you hold more authority than Cardinal Baronius?

Not that it matters, your position was eliminated when Jesus said….

Luke 22:24-26 (Jesus speaking with the 12 Apostles)
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger (KJV)

 

[Augustin56]

"Cardinal Baronius, the great Church historian, and most learned librarian of the Vatican, in his Ecclesiastical Annals, on which he spent 30 years, under the year A.D. 35, states that in that year Joseph of Arimathea, Lazarus. Mary, Martha, Marcella, their maid, and Maximin (blind from birth until healed by Yahshua) a disciple, were put by the Jews into a boat without sails and oars, and floated down the Mediterranean and landed at Marseilles, and thence Joseph and his company crossed into Britain, and preached the Gospel there, and finally died there."

Do you hold more authority than Cardinal Baronius?

Not that it matters, your position was eliminated when Jesus said….

Luke 22:24-26 (Jesus speaking with the 12 Apostles)
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger (KJV)

Ah, okay. This is never about me. It's about truth. I'm always open to the truth. I have studied the faith for over 60 years now, and am always learning.

That said, nothing you or Cardinal Baronius said contradicts what I said regarding that there was but one Church founded by Christ, and thit is referred to as the "Catholic" Church early on. Nothing your or Cardinal Baronius said gives any evidence of the Catholic Church being founded in 350 A.D. or later. Why? Because there is no evidence. The evidence I provided from St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter proves that the Catholic Church existed at least at that time. We have to know true history, not revisionist history.

Even the renowned Protestant historian, J.N.D. Kelly, whose work Early Christian Doctrines has been used as a textbook in Christian colleges and seminaries around the world, readily admits, in his writing, that the Catholic Church was the original Church.

 

[Truthnightmare]

The sad part os thay YOU should already be familiar with those verses.
But, nit-picking typos is your way of saying. "Gee, I never read that verse."

Haeppy to have been of help . . .

YOU should know better that that . . .

First of all – NOWHERE does the Bible state that the BIBLE is our SOLE Authority.
The Bible DOES, however, state that the Church is our final earthly Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

2 Tim. 2:16*17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is USEFUL for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

NOWHERE does this passage make the claim that ONLY Scripture is to be referenced for everything.
As a matter of fact, Paul explicitly points to Scripture and sacred Tradition being on even par:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."
Did you see that??
“… EITHER by and ORAL statement OR BY a letter”.

The false, man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura is a 16th century invention that YOU adhere to instead of the Word of God itself.

And the Church hasa NEVER taught that Peter exalted HIMSELF, which is what this passage condemns.
It was CHRIST who appointed him as leader. (Mat. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19).

STUDY upir Bible - don'y juy quote it . . .

The Catholic Church is the final authority?

Nearly 1,700 priests and other clergy members that the Roman Catholic Church considers credibly accused of child sexual abuse are living under the radar with little to no oversight from religious authorities or law enforcement, decades after the first wave of the church abuse scandal roiled U.S. dioceses, an Associated Press investigation has found.

No thanks!!!!!!

 

[Truthnightmare]

Ah, okay. This is never about me. It's about truth. I'm always open to the truth. I have studied the faith for over 60 years now, and am always learning.

That said, nothing you or Cardinal Baronius said contradicts what I said regarding that there was but one Church founded by Christ, and thit is referred to as the "Catholic" Church early on. Nothing your or Cardinal Baronius said gives any evidence of the Catholic Church being founded in 350 A.D. or later. Why? Because there is no evidence. The evidence I provided from St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter proves that the Catholic Church existed at least at that time. We have to know true history, not revisionist history.

Even the renowned Protestant historian, J.N.D. Kelly, whose work Early Christian Doctrines has been used as a textbook in Christian colleges and seminaries around the world, readily admits, in his writing, that the Catholic Church was the original Church.

What does the Bible say… that’s what’s important. I’m going to stick with the Bible, which is in contradiction to your religion.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Non-Catholic Christians have historically held Mary in high regard as a godly and highly favored woman of God, a sinner saved by the grace of her divine Son.

Catholic dogma, on the other hand, has exalted her in an irresponsible and idolatrous way. She is declared to have been free from all original sin (the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, first declared in 1854!; (Catechism 491-492), free from any actual sin during her life (Catechism 411), and perpetually a virgin even after the birth of Jesus (Catechism 499-500).

But the Bible says:​

Mark 6:3-4
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. (KJV)​

Those mentioned in the above Scripture (James, Joses, Juda, Simon, and His sisters) are Jesus' half brothers and sisters, born of Mary and Joseph; while Mary is Jesus' Mother, God is Jesus' Father. Below are just two more falsehoods from the Catechism (teachings) of the Catholic Church:

Catholic Catechism 491: "Mary... was redeemed from the moment of her conception... preserved immune from all stain of original sin."

Catholic Catechism 493: "Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long."​

But God's Word says differently:​

Rom 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (KJV)​

Allegedly, Mary was taken, body and soul, into heaven (Catechism 974). This is the dogma of the "Assumption of Mary," declared in the year 1950! In heaven, Mary supposedly intercedes for the church as "advocate, helper, benefactress, and mediatrix" (Catechism 969). She is made virtually a co-savior with her Son (Catechism 968). Recently, an increasing number of prominent Catholics have petitioned the church to officially declare that Mary can provide forgiveness of sins! As though the Pope simply saying it - makes it so. (There are all indications that Pope John Paul II will declare this before his papacy ends, possible as part of his Jubilee 2000 program).

These doctrines are so far afield from the Scriptures that non-Catholic Christians are amazed and saddened.

For the Bible says:

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (KJV)

Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (KJV)​

Only through Jesus Christ can we be saved, Mary is simply a good woman who led a good life, did God's work, and has passed away - period.

Below are a couple more reports of Mary messages from sightings, visions, and apparitions:

'Our Lady' of La Salette said:​

"If my people do not willingly submit, I SHALL BE FORCED TO ALLOW THE ARM OF MY SON TO WEIGH DOWN! For how long a time have I grieved because of you. I have had to pray UNCEASINGLY LEST MY SON ABANDON YOU. You can never understand how much sorrow I have known" (Catherine Laboure and the Modern Apparitions of Our Lady, Englebert, 153) (Emphasis ours).​

But the Bible says:​

Heb 13:5-6
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. (KJV)​

St. Bernardine of Sienna says:​

"St. Bernardine of Sienna does not hesitate to say that: "all obey the commands of Mary, even God himself" (Glories of Mary, Liguori, 202).​

But the Bible says:​

Isa 42:8
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (KJV)
Job 40:1-2
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. (KJV)​

In the Catholic publication: ​

New Interpretation of the Mass, (with the "nihil obstat" and "imprimatur") by Borgmann, on page 57, we read the following blasphemous statement about Jesus and Mary:​

"Now He lifts His eyes to her, knowing that she is His mother. At every nod of her eyes HE PLAYS THE PART OF THE ''SUBDEACON'' and grants her every wish" (Catholicism Against Itself, Vol.11, Lambert, 122).​

I choose the Bible as my authority you are free to choose the Catholic Church if it pleases you. Peace

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Catholic Church is the final authority?

That’s NOT what I said. I said the Church u our final EARTLY Authority.

I didn’t make that claim – JESUS did (Mat. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19)..

Nearly 1,700 priests and other clergy members that the Roman Catholic Church considers credibly accused of child sexual abuse are living under the radar with little to no oversight from religious authorities or law enforcement, decades after the first wave of the church abuse scandal roiled U.S. dioceses, an Associated Press investigation has found.

No thanks!!!!!!

And yet, there were and are SILL more Protestant molesters in your factions.

This is a documented FACT, as chronicled in the book, Pedophiles and Priests by Protestant author, Philip Jenkins.
Shall I list the news headlines that prove this fact?? I have DOZENS . . .

Jenkins lists official FBI and Police records, along with Insurance statistics to unveil these disturbing numbers. And HOW is it that YOU are totally unaware that sin exists within Christianity??

Ever read the Bible (Matt. 13:24-43)??

 

[Truthnightmare]

That’s NOT what I said. I said the Church u our final EARTLY Authority.

I didn’t make that claim – JESUS did (Mat. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31-32, John 21:15-19)..

And yet, there were and are SILL more Protestant molesters in your factions.

This is a documented FACT, as chronicled in the book, Pedophiles and Priests by Protestant author, Philip Jenkins.
Shall I list the news headlines that prove this fact?? I have DOZENS . . .

Jenkins lists official FBI and Police records, along with Insurance statistics to unveil these disturbing numbers. And HOW is it that YOU are totally unaware that sin exists within Christianity??

Ever read the Bible (Matt. 13:24-43)??

Your Catholic Church will never be my final authority. We are told to obey Christ, not your church.

 

[Illuminator]

"Cardinal Baronius, the great Church historian, and most learned librarian of the Vatican, in his Ecclesiastical Annals, on which he spent 30 years, under the year A.D. 35, states that in that year Joseph of Arimathea, Lazarus. Mary, Martha, Marcella, their maid, and Maximin (blind from birth until healed by Yahshua) a disciple, were put by the Jews into a boat without sails and oars, and floated down the Mediterranean and landed at Marseilles, and thence Joseph and his company crossed into Britain, and preached the Gospel there, and finally died there."

Do you hold more authority than Cardinal Baronius?

Augustin56 makes no such claim, but you do for yourself. Baronius was a strong defender of the papacy.

Baronius, Caesar | Encyclopedia.com

Caesar Baronius (bərō´nēəs), 1538–1607, Italian ecclesiastical historian, cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church. He went to Rome c.1557 and soon came under the tutelage of St. Philip Neri. Source for information on Baronius, Caesar: The Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th ed. dictionary.

www.encyclopedia.com

Try to stay on topic.

Not that it matters, your position was eliminated when Jesus said….

Luke 22:24-26 (Jesus speaking with the 12 Apostles)
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger (KJV)

Nobody knows what your point is.

 

[Illuminator]

Your Catholic Church will never be my final authority. We are told to obey Christ, not your church.

You think you know the Bible but you don't. Christ tells us to obey the Church. It's time to put your anti-Catholic screeching on ignore.

Matthew 18:

17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.​

good bye.

 

[Philip James]

Heya Phillip,
Was Jesus a Catholic?

Heya!

If by 'Catholic' you mean the one, universal, body of Christ, then I would say most certainly! Because He is its authour and it is He who effects this in us..

And indeed it is also His prayer:

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.

And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,

I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.


It is He who unites us with Himself, and through Him with each other..

as St. Paul says:

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.


All are welcome to come, to the wedding Feat of the Lamb of God!




Pax et Bonum

 

[Truthnightmare]

You think you know the Bible but you don't. Christ tells us to obey the Church. It's time to put your anti-Catholic screeching on ignore.

Matthew 18:​

​

17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.​

good bye.

Why didn’t you post the whole passage?

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

The church has no authority here… if the brother realizes he messed up you have gained a friend, and don’t even need the church.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Then it says take a couple of people that are fair and if the brother realizes he messed up then you have gained a friend.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Only after that do you involve the church, the power is in the people not your organization. Christ made us free, and that means free from people like you who would make me a slave to your Catholic Church.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Augustin56 makes no such claim, but you do for yourself. Baronius was a strong defender of the papacy.

Baronius, Caesar | Encyclopedia.com

Caesar Baronius (bərō´nēəs), 1538–1607, Italian ecclesiastical historian, cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church. He went to Rome c.1557 and soon came under the tutelage of St. Philip Neri. Source for information on Baronius, Caesar: The Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th ed. dictionary.

www.encyclopedia.com

Try to stay on topic.

Nobody knows what your point is.

Nobody knows what my point is? Who are you to speak for everyone?
I don’t have a point, however; Christ made a point.

The apostles came to Christ asking who would be the leader. Christ said gentiles play the leader game, we do not.

So this Catholic talk of Peter being the leader or the rock or the head is nonsense.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with Christ.

Jesus did NOT appoint Peter to the headship of the Apostles and expressly forbade any such notion, as stated in:

Luke 22:24-26 (Jesus speaking with the 12 Apostles)
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger (KJV)

The church is a body, the head is Christ and the rock it’s built on is Christ. Are we done…
I