Philippians 2:12

[Davy]

Romans 7:13
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

The person in Roman 7 still has sin in them. Does that describe you?

You, I, everyone... still in the flesh are sinners, including those without Christ. The difference with those 'in Christ', is that they repent and ask forgiveness of Jesus when they discover they have sinned. And like Apostle John said in 1 John 1, Jesus is Just to cleanse them of it and forgive it.

But what some in the Grace Movement wrongly teach is that those 'in Christ' don't sin anymore, quoting 1 John 3:9 without noting the required condition of abiding in Him in 1 John 3:6. It's like quoting John 3:16 and then acting like there is nothing else written in The New Testament, like disregarding the written Scripture about believers of that which fall away from Christ.

This latter attitude, teaching that the believer cannot sin anymore after believing on Jesus and being baptized, supports the working of iniquity.
It is what Jesus showed He had against those believers in Matthew 7 which He rejected...

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"

23 And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.'
KJV

The key linked idea in that is those who do the will of The Father in Heaven vs. those who do iniquity.

It's very easy for a believer on Christ to think they are saved while they do iniquity at the same time when they are told they can no longer sin. That's why such a doctrine that teaches we no longer have need to repent or ask forgiveness of Jesus for our future sin is a doctrine of devils.

 

[justbyfaith]

1 John 3:6 is to be compared to 1 John 2:17.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You, I, everyone... still in the flesh are sinners, including those without Christ. The difference with those 'in Christ', is that they repent and ask forgiveness of Jesus when they discover they have sinned. And like Apostle John said in 1 John 1, Jesus is Just to cleanse them of it and forgive it.

But what some in the Grace Movement wrongly teach is that those 'in Christ' don't sin anymore, quoting 1 John 3:9 without noting the required condition of abiding in Him in 1 John 3:6. It's like quoting John 3:16 and then acting like there is nothing else written in The New Testament, like disregarding the written Scripture about believers of that which fall away from Christ.

This latter attitude, teaching that the believer cannot sin anymore after believing on Jesus and being baptized, supports the working of iniquity.
It is what Jesus showed He had against those believers in Matthew 7 which He rejected...

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"

23 And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.'
KJV

The key linked idea in that is those who do the will of The Father in Heaven vs. those who do iniquity.

It's very easy for a believer on Christ to think they are saved while they do iniquity at the same time when they are told they can no longer sin. That's why such a doctrine that teaches we no longer have need to repent or ask forgiveness of Jesus for our future sin is a doctrine of devils.

Just because you have no power over sin, doesn't mean that Spirit-filled Christians are not freed from sin. I guess you'll just have to speak for yourself. What the context of 1 John 3:9 is 1 John 3:4 - sins of lawlessness. If you still break commandments and commit adultery, fornication, murder, lying, thievery, and sorcery, you've got problems.

I don't commit sins of lawlessness. In fact, Jesus doesn't call me a sinner, but a child of God. But I did sin before I was born again of the Spirit, and that was the whole first 30 years of going to church, UNSAVED. Those that have not repented and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit are probably still dead in their sins like I was, and you say you are. Because of the doctrines of demons you believe that we will always sin is a slap in the face of Jesus. He died to TAKE AWAY our sin, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5 Davy, if you truly have no power over sin, confess that to Jesus. You just have to be honest with Him, and He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit. You'll know it when you receive His power. It will feel like a heavy weight has been lifted off your shoulders; that's Him taking away your sin nature, and replacing it with the divine nature.

 

[marks]

I think when we act contrary to love we've got problems, in that any behaviors contrary to love for God and others arise from the flesh, not the spirit.

Naturally we won't kill someone we love, but we also won't try to belittle them with words (not to anyone in particular, just an example we can relate to).

Sometimes we do anyway, and this is a work of the flesh same as murder.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Good word Chris,
The "fear and trembling" scripture used to throw me. I now see it as you have mentioned above, reverential fear. Unbelievers should be trembling just like Satan does...but, we, being His children are to "boldly" approach His throne, and how could we ever dare to do that if we're full of fear and trembling?
If we are disobedient then, I suppose there would be fear and trembling if one of God's children does not repent...and for good reason, He will chastise until the sin/sins are repented of...think I would rather be in good standing with our Father in Heaven
In Him forever!
nancy

I always like what my friend said once. "I learned the fear of the Lord when I realized how much He can mess with my life!"

Much love!

 

[marks]

Just because you have no power over sin, doesn't mean that Spirit-filled Christians are not freed from sin. I guess you'll just have to speak for yourself. What the context of 1 John 3:9 is 1 John 3:4 - sins of lawlessness. If you still break commandments and commit adultery, fornication, murder, lying, thievery, and sorcery, you've got problems.

I don't commit sins of lawlessness. But I did before I was born again, and that was 30 years!!! after first going to church. Those that have not repented and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit are probably still dead in their sins. Because of the doctrines of demons you believe that we will always sin is a slap in the face of Jesus. He died to TAKE AWAY our sin, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5

I do believe there is a process where God brings us from the "motions of sin in our members" to the real freedom from sin.

And I agree with you completely, the belief that we are consigned to helplessness in the face of sin is a lie. Outside of Christ, yes. Born again, in Christ, we have power over sin all sin.

Believing we are helpless leads us to act as if we are helpless, to feel weak. Belief in God's deliverance leads us to live lives in God's power.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

I do believe there is a process where God brings us from the "motions of sin in our members" to the real freedom from sin.

That is immature fruit of the Spirit, IF the Spirit is there in the first place. Fruit grows.

 

[justbyfaith]

The doctrine of the inevitability of sin is a false doctrine and heresy.

Nevertheless, it is taught in some mainstream churches.

 

[Grailhunter]

I do believe there is a process where God brings us from the "motions of sin in our members" to the real freedom from sin.

And I agree with you completely, the belief that we are consigned to helplessness in the face of sin is a lie. Outside of Christ, yes. Born again, in Christ, we have power over sin all sin.

Believing we are helpless leads us to act as if we are helpless, to feel weak. Belief in God's deliverance leads us to live lives in God's power.

Much love!

@CharismaticLady @marks
Believing we are helpless leads us to act as if we are helpless, to feel weak. Belief in God's deliverance leads us to live lives in God's power. Mark, your post and I agree

Please excuse me for butting in. I once started a thread about man made sins. It is good to know what are really biblical sins, because that way we can concentrate on not actually sinning and do not make the mistake of judging or condemning others over sins that are not real. Granted we who know better, condemn the sin, not the sinner. But we are all old enough to hear the gossip in churches. We have the Grace of Christ, and we have free will, and the Christian conscience. Not to say that we are not exciting, but for most of us, the sins we are guilty of, are pretty boring. Nothing that would tax Christ's ability to forgive. Still in our Christian walk with Christ, we should concentrating on applying Christianity in love and good deeds to one another. I heard this once said that if we exhaust ourselves doing what is right, we get better at it, and Christ will be there to pick us up when we stumble.

 

[Nancy]

I always like what my friend said once. "I learned the fear of the Lord when I realized how much He can mess with my life!"

Much love!

Lol! True though

 

[marks]

@CharismaticLady @marks
Believing we are helpless leads us to act as if we are helpless, to feel weak. Belief in God's deliverance leads us to live lives in God's power. Mark, your post and I agree

Please excuse me for butting in. I once started a thread about man made sins. It is good to know what are really biblical sins, because that way we can concentrate on not actually sinning and do not make the mistake of judging or condemning others over sins that are not real. Granted we who know better, condemn the sin, not the sinner. But we are all old enough to hear the gossip in churches. We have the Grace of Christ, and we have free will, and the Christian conscience. Not to say that we are not exciting, but for most of us, the sins we are guilty of, are pretty boring. Nothing that would tax Christ's ability to forgive. Still in our Christian walk with Christ, we should concentrating on applying Christianity in love and good deeds to one another. I heard this once said that if we exhaust ourselves doing what is right, we get better at it, and Christ will be there to pick us up when we stumble.

Hi Grailhunter,

I believe the Biblical definition of sin is anything that is not of faith. Or we could say, the only things that we do that are NOT sin are what we do in faith, as a direct and positive outworking of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

As for how exciting or not, well, we all know ourselves, and no one else but God does. And even we know only imperfectly.

I don't think we should make the mistake of judging or condemning others for sins anyway. I don't see that to be our job.

I believe all our sins past present future are all forgiven, removed, and have nothing anymore to do with the redeemed. Only that they take away from our walk and maturity, and God is committed to getting us past all that.

I think we are not to concentrate on not sinning, as that will actually lead us into more sin. Rather we concentrate on serving, and loving, and then there is no sin in those things.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

@CharismaticLady @marks
Believing we are helpless leads us to act as if we are helpless, to feel weak. Belief in God's deliverance leads us to live lives in God's power. Mark, your post and I agree

Please excuse me for butting in. I once started a thread about man made sins. It is good to know what are really biblical sins, because that way we can concentrate on not actually sinning and do not make the mistake of judging or condemning others over sins that are not real. Granted we who know better, condemn the sin, not the sinner. But we are all old enough to hear the gossip in churches. We have the Grace of Christ, and we have free will, and the Christian conscience. Not to say that we are not exciting, but for most of us, the sins we are guilty of, are pretty boring. Nothing that would tax Christ's ability to forgive. Still in our Christian walk with Christ, we should concentrating on applying Christianity in love and good deeds to one another. I heard this once said that if we exhaust ourselves doing what is right, we get better at it, and Christ will be there to pick us up when we stumble.

Right. Paul gives a good list of "real" sins.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

These are things we cannot do if we are walking in the Spirit. What you CAN do while walking in the Spirit are trespasses unintentionally committed, and if we forgive others their trespasses against us, the Father forgives us our trespresses.

 

[Grailhunter]

Right. Paul gives a good list of "real" sins.

Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

These are things we cannot do if we are walking in the Spirit. What you CAN do while walking in the Spirit are trespasses unintentionally committed, and if we forgive others their trespasses against us, the Father forgives us our trespresses.

Agreed. But my point was of that we are not going to get involved with a lot of that. We are not helpless to sin. I will go out on a limb and say that Charismatic Lady has never been a married drunken witch that participated in orgies and killed people. Me I am ex-military and even at that I kept my wrath well below that of God the Father.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Agreed. But my point was of that we are not going to get involved with a lot of that. We are not helpless to sin. I will go out on a limb and say that Charismatic Lady has never been a married drunken witch that participated in orgies and killed people. Me I am ex-military and even at that I kept my wrath well below that of God the Father.

One thing I'm still trying to figure out, the two things that most kids do, I never did and that was lie or steal (candy). But I wasn't filled with the Spirit until I was 30 years old. How come I was such a good kid?

 

[Grailhunter]

One thing I'm still trying to figure out, the two things that most kids do, I never did and that was lie or steal (candy). But I wasn't filled with the Spirit until I was 30 years old. How come I was such a good kid?

Respect and love for our parents. We still took our kids to church and our parents took us to church....It is an entire different way of thinking. I would not want my mom to think I was a thief. And the dad thing with the belt. You see people smacking their kids in walmart and they live through it, and then they are not sacred of it. My dad beat me with the belt a couple times and I thought I was going to die. I became a believer! I be good and you keep your belt to yourself. Now a days you cannot do that sort of stuff. lol The culture has something to do with it too. The public school system is an issue.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If you are in any way trusting in your obedience/good works/law-keeping to save you, then the following scriptures apply:

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

There are many, many verses in the Bible that attest to the fact that God will save those who have a faithful obedience to Him. Not one verse says God will save those who live in rebellion and disobedience to Him. Therefore obedience saves but obedience ALONE will not save because my obedience will not be perfect therefore I'm in need of grace. Meaning salvation is by obedience AND grace and neither one alone will save.

 

[CharismaticLady]

There are many, many verses in the Bible that attest to the fact that God will save those who have a faithful obedience to Him. Not one verse says God will save those who live in rebellion and disobedience to Him. Therefore obedience saves but obedience ALONE will not save because my obedience will not be perfect therefore I'm in need of grace. Meaning salvation is by obedience AND grace and neither one alone will save.

Ernest, you have good things to say.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I am wondering if anyone on this forum can show me an example from the Bible of a person who was obedient to God's will and the obedience of that person earned him God's grace/mercy/favor?

 

[Grailhunter]

I am wondering if anyone on this forum can show me an example from the Bible of a person who was obedient to God's will and the obedience of that person earned him God's grace/mercy/favor?

I think the closest person that will come to that is Abraham...and that is not perfection.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I am wondering if anyone on this forum can show me an example from the Bible of a person who was obedient to God's will and the obedience of that person earned him God's grace/mercy/favor?

Abraham.