Philippians 2:12

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Ernest T. Bass

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So you are a Universalist? Is that what you are saying? All mankind is saved? We don't need to do anything, not even know about Jesus, let alone follow Him? Now you are talking like your Avatar.
What made you think I am a Universalist?

Even though men are freely justified, only those that conditionally have faith will be justified Romans 5:1.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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It, for the most part, takes being born again to be (truly) obedient. A person may think that they are obedient, but if they are not born again, that obedience will not save them.

Obedience is not the catalyst for being born again...faith is. Obedience is the result of a living faith in Jesus Christ.

The new birth takes place when one obeys God by submitting to His command to be water baptized.

Matthew 7:21------doeth the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
John 3:3,5-----------born again>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom



justbyfaith said:
And in a similar fashion, there is no one who received God's grace by being obedient to the Lord. For we receive God's grace through an obedient faith. It is not the things that we do that save us; but it is the change in attitude that causes us to behave differently, that does the work. And the Lord also does the work by imparting the Holy Spirit.

Obedience is how men receive God's grace, EVERY example in the Bible it was those who obeyed that received grace/mercy from God.
EVERY example in the Bible of those who DISobeyed did not receive grace.

Therefore what a person does in obeying God does save...those who "work righteousness" are the ones God accepts Acts of the Apostle 10:35.

Hebrews 5:9 says Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that OBEY him. It does NOT say Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that have a change of attitude.

No verse says obedient works do not save us, no verse says the Lord does the work for man, no verse says those who live in rebellion and disobedience to God will be saved.

Roman 6:16 which puts the nail in the coffin of Luther's faith only-ism for faith only has man serving sin unto death for it certainly does not have man serving obedience unto righteousness.


justbyfaith said:
Hebrews 5:9 does not rule out the possibility that the obedience spoken of can be a result of faith. In other places in scripture we find that salvation is not conditional upon obedience. However, obedience will normally result out of a genuine salvation.

Again, there is not a single verse or a single example of one being saved who lived in disobedience to God. EVERY case those who conditionally obeyed received grace. In passages as Jeremiah 18:8-10 God has already determined those who obey will receive mercy while those who obey will not.

One must have faith to obey God for a faithless person would not obey God. Therefore in Hebrews 5:9 "obey Him" includes having faith. The Bible ties faith and obedience so closely together that faith is an obedient work. For James points out that faith without works will not justify and Paul shows works without faith cannot justify. Therefore justification requires BOTH faith and obedience to be justified. For no one is justified by faith only nor is a faithless person justified by flawless. perfect works. It takes faith AND obedience.


justbyfaith said:
Repentance is the change in attitude that results in obedience; and yes, it is a requirement for salvation. I will say that the obedience that comes out of repentance is not salvational; while it is solid evidence that genuine salvation is present in a man's life.

The Bible commands men to repent therefore repentance is obedience to a command of God, it is a work and it does save. Repentance ALONE does not save but repentance with confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Acts 2:38) does save.

Therefore all the belief only in the world can never save an impenitent person.

justbyfaith said:
Of course, a man may have obedience and yet not be saved; for he may be attempting to obtain his salvation through his works/obedience: and if this be the case, he is not trusting in the finished work of the Cross and is therefore not saved. But if he is genuinely saved and does his works out of gratitude over salvation received; understanding that his works do not save him in any fashion: in such a case he is saved by grace through faith and that not of himself; and not of works: and therefore his works bear testimony to the fact that he is saved, since he does them even though he does not receive the reward of salvation over doing them.

If a man has obedience to GOD'S will that will save him.
If a man has obedience to his OWN traditions (his own righteousness) that will not save him.

A clear case in Romans 10:3 where those Jews were lost for they would not obey GOD'S commands that would have saved them. Instead they went about doing their OWN righteousness that could not save them.

God says to believe (John 8:24) repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) and be baptized (Mark 16:16) to be saved and therefore if I believe, repent, confess and submit to baptism then I am doing GOD'S commands that do save. Yet if I try and save myself by having faith only, then I am trying to save myself by my OWN righteousness, establishing my OWN tradition.
 

justbyfaith

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Hebrews 5:9 says Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that OBEY him. It does NOT say Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that have a change of attitude.

Those who have a change of attitude will obey Him. However, other scripture elsewhere teaches us that it is not the obedience that saves; but rather the change of attitude producing the obedience that accomplishes the work of salvation. Iow, Ye must be born again; as Jesus said.

No verse says obedient works do not save us,

Quite a few passages teach this, actually (that works don't save): among them Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6, and Romans 4:1-8.

It is an obedient faith that saves us. The works that result from it cannot be salvational for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9).

Again, there is not a single verse or a single example of one being saved who lived in disobedience to God.

Again, there is a generic statement in scripture stating that to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith will be counted to him as righteousness. And a statement after it that the Lord imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:5-6).

One must have faith to obey God for a faithless person would not obey God.

There are people who obey commandments of scripture who do not have a living and saving faith. For they believe that they are saved by their works; and therefore they are not placing their trust in the finished work of the Cross; which is the only means of real salvation.

The only works that matter and end up in reward are those works that are accomplished not in order to obtain salvation; but rather out of thankfulness for that the Lord has (already) saved you. If you do not know that you are saved through the finished work of the Cross, no amount of works is going to accomplish salvation for you. See 1 John 5:13. You can know that you have eternal life. But if you are attempting to be saved by works, then you do not know it: there is always one more work that you have to do in order to obtain salvation. Where does it end? My Bible teaches me that when we believe, we have passed from death into everlasting life (John 5:24).

The Bible ties faith and obedience so closely together that faith is an obedient work.

In John 6:28-29, Jesus is indeed speaking to those who, after all argumentation has been made for the truth, want to insist that they will be saved by their works. He says, therefore, that the only work that will save you is a simple faith in Him: this is the work of God, that you believe on the One whom He hath sent. That's it. Nothing else. Only simple faith in the Messiah Jesus.

Therefore justification requires BOTH faith and obedience to be justified.

It only requires faith; and if you understood your Bible you would know that.

Living and saving faith normally produces obedience; but the obedience is not salvational: because obedience translates into works: and it is clear from holy scripture that we are not saved by works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

For no one is justified by faith only

The Bible teaches us that if anyone is justified, they are justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone (if they are trusting in their works in any degree to save them, their faith is not in the right place; and therefore they are not saved)

The Bible commands men to repent therefore repentance is obedience to a command of God, it is a work and it does save.

If repentance is a work, then it does not save (Ephesians 2:9, Titus 3:5, Romans 11:6 (kjv))

If a man has obedience to GOD'S will that will save him.

Allow me to quote something.

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Here, we find people who were doing works that cannot be done apart from the Lord (God); and even these works (that they did) did not save them. Why? Because they were trusting in their works to save them, rather than fully trusting in the finished work of the Cross. They were not redeemed from all iniquity by the blood of the Lamb (Titus 2:14). They continued to have a cup and platter that was not clean on the inside; although they did clean the outside of the cup and platter. While they performed many works in Christ's name, they continued to work iniquity: on the inside they were like dead men's bones.

A clear case in Romans 10:3 where those Jews were lost for they would not obey GOD'S commands that would have saved them. Instead they went about doing their OWN righteousness that could not save them.

Romans 10:3 is to be interpreted in part by Philippians 3:9. Our own righteousness is the righteousness which is by the law; or the righteousness that comes through what we do in order to be accepted by the Lord. But the righteousness which is from God by faith (the righteousness that is acceptable to Him; in that we submit to His righteousness) is on this wise: The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith which we preach: that if anyone will simply confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, they will be saved. (Romans 10:8-9). And nothing more is needed than that. If works are done after that, they are not done in order to be saved; but are done as acts stemming out of a salvation that already exists.

Yet if I try and save myself by having faith only, then I am trying to save myself by my OWN righteousness, establishing my OWN tradition.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17). Salvation which is by faith, therefore, is all of God and none of us.
 
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CharismaticLady

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What made you think I am a Universalist?

Even though men are freely justified, only those that conditionally have faith will be justified Romans 5:1.

When you were trying to make the valid point that salvation is by Jesus, you went to far in determining that we are not involved at all. That is Universalism. WE are involved. We accept, we repent, we obey, we testify, all requirements.
 

justbyfaith

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The fact that we are justified freely (Romans 3:24) does not translate into Universalism.
 

DoveSpirit05

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its a shame most people know john 3:16 and not this verse, it should be the other way round!!
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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When you were trying to make the valid point that salvation is by Jesus, you went to far in determining that we are not involved at all. That is Universalism. WE are involved. We accept, we repent, we obey, we testify, all requirements.
I have never said man is not involved in his own salvation. I have posted that man does have a role in his own salvation. Therefore every man will not be saved for every man will not fulfill the required role in his own salvation. Only those that fulfill that role are freely justified.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Those who have a change of attitude will obey Him. However, other scripture elsewhere teaches us that it is not the obedience that saves; but rather the change of attitude producing the obedience that accomplishes the work of salvation. Iow, Ye must be born again; as Jesus said.



Quite a few passages teach this, actually (that works don't save): among them Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6, and Romans 4:1-8.

It is an obedient faith that saves us. The works that result from it cannot be salvational for salvation is "not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9).



Again, there is a generic statement in scripture stating that to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith will be counted to him as righteousness. And a statement after it that the Lord imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:5-6).



There are people who obey commandments of scripture who do not have a living and saving faith. For they believe that they are saved by their works; and therefore they are not placing their trust in the finished work of the Cross; which is the only means of real salvation.

The only works that matter and end up in reward are those works that are accomplished not in order to obtain salvation; but rather out of thankfulness for that the Lord has (already) saved you. If you do not know that you are saved through the finished work of the Cross, no amount of works is going to accomplish salvation for you. See 1 John 5:13. You can know that you have eternal life. But if you are attempting to be saved by works, then you do not know it: there is always one more work that you have to do in order to obtain salvation. Where does it end? My Bible teaches me that when we believe, we have passed from death into everlasting life (John 5:24).



In John 6:28-29, Jesus is indeed speaking to those who, after all argumentation has been made for the truth, want to insist that they will be saved by their works. He says, therefore, that the only work that will save you is a simple faith in Him: this is the work of God, that you believe on the One whom He hath sent. That's it. Nothing else. Only simple faith in the Messiah Jesus.



It only requires faith; and if you understood your Bible you would know that.

Living and saving faith normally produces obedience; but the obedience is not salvational: because obedience translates into works: and it is clear from holy scripture that we are not saved by works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).



The Bible teaches us that if anyone is justified, they are justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone (if they are trusting in their works in any degree to save them, their faith is not in the right place; and therefore they are not saved)



If repentance is a work, then it does not save (Ephesians 2:9, Titus 3:5, Romans 11:6 (kjv))



Allow me to quote something.

Mat 7:21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Here, we find people who were doing works that cannot be done apart from the Lord (God); and even these works (that they did) did not save them. Why? Because they were trusting in their works to save them, rather than fully trusting in the finished work of the Cross. They were not redeemed from all iniquity by the blood of the Lamb (Titus 2:14). They continued to have a cup and platter that was not clean on the inside; although they did clean the outside of the cup and platter. While they performed many works in Christ's name, they continued to work iniquity: on the inside they were like dead men's bones.



Romans 10:3 is to be interpreted in part by Philippians 3:9. Our own righteousness is the righteousness which is by the law; or the righteousness that comes through what we do in order to be accepted by the Lord. But the righteousness which is from God by faith (the righteousness that is acceptable to Him; in that we submit to His righteousness) is on this wise: The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith which we preach: that if anyone will simply confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, they will be saved. (Romans 10:8-9). And nothing more is needed than that. If works are done after that, they are not done in order to be saved; but are done as acts stemming out of a salvation that already exists.



Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17). Salvation which is by faith, therefore, is all of God and none of us.

Hebrews 5:9 says nothing about a 'change of attitude' saving anyone, but obedience is what saves according to the verse.

Verses as Eph 2:9 and Romans 4:5 teach works of merit do not save nor works of the OT law do not save. But NO VERSE anywhere eliminates obedience to God's will from salvation. Acts 10:35 those who worketh righteousness are accepted with God. Paul clearly shows in Romans 6:16-18 obedience saves. And Paul does not contradict himself in Eph 2:9 or Romans 4:5 from what he says in Rom 6.

It has been shown here many times obedience does not earn salvation. Obedience is not anything one can boast about for one's obedience is not going to be perfect. Therefore salvation requires man's role in obeying God's will and God' grace for when man's obedience is not perfect and man sins. Without obedience one is serving sin unto death per Romans 6:16 and not obedience unto righteousness.

The Bible does not teach Luther's faith only anywhere. Faith only is disobedience to God's will. Faith only it is man trying to save himself by his own righteousness. FAith only will never save an impenitent person, disobedient person.

You posted "The Bible teaches us that if anyone is justified, they are justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone (if they are trusting in their works in any degree to save them, their faith is not in the right place; and therefore they are not saved)" This is a typical straw man argument put forth by faith only-ists. It has never been argued one can be saved by doing his OWN works, yet the Bible does say one can be saved by obeying GOD'S commands. Romans 10:3 makes that very clear. No verse says justification is by faith alone. Luther has to ADD TO GOD'S word thereby he CHANGED God's word in an attempt to conform God's word to his personal philosophy.

John 6:28-29 nor John 3:16 nor any verse did Jesus ever say 'belief only' saves. To try and conform Jesus words into "belief only saves" contradicts what Jesus said in Luke 13:3, Matthew 10:32-33 and Mark 16:16 that show repentance saves, confession saves, baptism saves. Cherry picking out just the verses that mention "belief" while ignoring verses that require repentance confession and baptism is another attempt by faith-onlyists to conform God's word to fit what Luther said. One must take into account all verses that deal with salvation to reach the proper conclusion as to what saves, not just a few cherry picked ones.

ROmans 10:3 shows those Jews were lost for they did not obey GOd's commands but rather wnet about establishing their own righteousness. Doing their OWN man made traditions could not saved them but obeying GOD'S will (obeying the gospel Romans 10:16) would save saved them.

Romans 10:17 does NOT say man has no role in his own salvation. Man's role in salvation is developing faith in his heart upon hearing the word. Some men refuse to have faith upon hearing God's word Hebrews 4:2.
 

justbyfaith

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I have never said man is not involved in his own salvation. I have posted that man does have a role in his own salvation. Therefore every man will not be saved for every man will not fulfill the required role in his own salvation. Only those that fulfill that role are freely justified.
If by "required role" you mean the role of doing good works for God, then you are only half right.

The role that we take upon ourselves is not required; faith is what is required and the role is automatic because of faith. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). We love much because we are forgiven much (Luke 7:36-50). By faith (Galatians 3:14), we receive the love of the Lord through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5).

Salvation is by faith alone; and we receive the love of the Lord through faith: which results in good works.

Therefore, if you say you have faith but don't have works, your faith is merely nominal, lukewarm, or shallow (basically dead)...a mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel. You may feel joy for a season; but you were not saved.

It is a deep and abiding work that the Lord wants to do in you.

Again, this is by faith alone: simply believe that the Lord can and will do what He desires to do in you: and that He does do it upon your asking it of Him.

You can't earn it or walk your way up a ladder into heaven. That's exalting yourself; and you will be abased if you do that. But if you humble yourself, you will be exalted.

Luk 18:9, And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10, Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11, The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12, I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13, And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14, I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
 

justbyfaith

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The Bible does not teach Luther's faith only anywhere. Faith only is disobedience to God's will.

I am talking about transformative faith that results in a man being made into a new creature in Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ezekiel 36:25-27.

Faith only it is man trying to save himself by his own righteousness.

You are trying to reverse the issue. Works righteousness is man trying to save himself. The Bible teaches salvation by faith alone in Christ. This is the Lord saving a man through his heart's attitude changing to belief and surrender to Christ's Lordship.

Romans 10:3 makes that very clear.

Romans 10:3 is to be compared to Philippians 3:9; and also its context in Romans 9:30-33 and Romans 10:1-4.

Cherry picking out just the verses that mention "belief" while ignoring verses that require repentance confession and baptism is another attempt by faith-onlyists to conform God's word to fit what Luther said.

No one is ignoring any verses. We compare spiritual thing with spiritual to come up with the teaching of the Holy Ghost. Baptism, repentance and confession are not works, except that they are works that the Lord does in a man's life.

ROmans 10:3 shows those Jews were lost for they did not obey God's commands but rather went about establishing their own righteousness.

Phl 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
 
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