Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
But what verse says Abraham earned salvation and how could his obedience earn salvation when his obedience was not perfect?
Philippians 2:12
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It is never obedience/works that save; but I will not argue that we are not saved by an obedient faith.
We are not saved through the actions but by the attitude that the actions come from.
It is a heart change that makes the difference.
If you have obedience but have never been born again, you will not be saved.
A man can have obedience and not be born again. He may think that he is saving himself through what he does; but is not trusting in the finished work of the Cross.
But a man cannot be born again and not have obedience. To be born again means to be regenerated and renewed (Titus 3:4-7); and to be made into a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17): the love of God is shed abroad in the heart (Romans 5:5); and this love is never in word or in tongue only but is always in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). This practical love and righteousness, given as a free gift to the believer by faith, translates into obedience to God's word.
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CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
He trusted that what God said would come to pass, and was obedient even to sacrificing his son Isaac. “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Romans 4
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Hey Ernest! No fair trick question! lol You asked, I am wondering if anyone on this forum can show me an example from the Bible of a person who was obedient to God's will and the obedience of that person earned him God's grace/mercy/favor? Abraham found favor and mercy, now Grace...that is up to you to decide. Salvation is not much of an option in the OT.
Gen 15:6, And he <Abraham> believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
I realize that in quoting this I may indeed be opening a can of worms.
I realize that in quoting this I may indeed be opening a can of worms.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Men are doing one of two actions, either obeying God or disobeying God. Men are doing one of two actions: serving sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness, Romans 6:16. There is no neutral position.
It takes obedience to God to be born again for no verse says those that live in rebellion and disobedience to God will be saved.
Romans 2 men's eternal destiny will be determined by their actions, whether they were obedient or disobedient.
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
But Abraham's obedience did not earn his salvation/justification. Since salvation is a free gift, how could it be earned by Abraham, or anyone else?
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Hi,
My point in asking the question was to show that NO ONE earned God's grace by being obedient to God's will. Therefore the idea that obedience is an attempt to earn God's grace is purely a strawman argument.
Also there is NO ONE who received God's grace by living in rebellion and disobedience to God.
The implication of this is the fact one must obey to receive grace.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
He was before the law, and His trust and obedience to God was imputed to him as righteousness. Salvation is NOT a free gift; it was bought with a heavy price. Our assurance of salvation is based on keeping Christ's commandments and pleasing God. Jesus didn't die so we could sin; He died to free us from sin.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
We had to repent to receive grace.
Abraham just trusted God and acted on His word; Abraham had faith in God.
Yes, @farouk, there is. - Praise God!
Your posts always feel like a hand has reached out and shaken mine and said, 'Hello'.
Thank you for your hand of fellowship.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Likewise, your thoughtful approach to Scripture is truly appreciated.
'But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,
that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ
might be given to them that believe.'
(Galatians 3:22)
Hello there,
If believing God is an act of obedience, then I confess to having done so. I believe God.
Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ
might be given to them that believe.'
(Galatians 3:22)
Hello there,
If believing God is an act of obedience, then I confess to having done so. I believe God.
Praise His Holy Name!
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Men are freely justified Romans 3:24. See also Romans 6:23 eternal life is a free gift
Jesus dying on the cross was a free gift to man where the shed blood of Christ purchased salvation for man. Since salvation is a free gift that means God did not owe salvation to man, hence salvation is a free gift offered to man by God's grace. And this free gift is conditional upon obeying Christ in order to receive it, Hebrews 5:9
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Repentance is obedience, it is required condition to be saved but it does not earn salvation.
Abraham's obedience (Hebrews 11:8,17) was a necessary condition for him to be freely justified.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
So you are a Universalist? Is that what you are saying? All mankind is saved? We don't need to do anything, not even know about Jesus, let alone follow Him? Now you are talking like your Avatar.
It, for the most part, takes being born again to be (truly) obedient. A person may think that they are obedient, but if they are not born again, that obedience will not save them.
Obedience is not the catalyst for being born again...faith is. Obedience is the result of a living faith in Jesus Christ.
And in a similar fashion, there is no one who received God's grace by being obedient to the Lord. For we receive God's grace through an obedient faith. It is not the things that we do that save us; but it is the change in attitude that causes us to behave differently, that does the work. And the Lord also does the work by imparting the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 5:9 does not rule out the possibility that the obedience spoken of can be a result of faith. In other places in scripture we find that salvation is not conditional upon obedience. However, obedience will normally result out of a genuine salvation.
Repentance is the change in attitude that results in obedience; and yes, it is a requirement for salvation. I will say that the obedience that comes out of repentance is not salvational; while it is solid evidence that genuine salvation is present in a man's life.
Of course, a man may have obedience and yet not be saved; for he may be attempting to obtain his salvation through his works/obedience: and if this be the case, he is not trusting in the finished work of the Cross and is therefore not saved. But if he is genuinely saved and does his works out of gratitude over salvation received; understanding that his works do not save him in any fashion: in such a case he is saved by grace through faith and that not of himself; and not of works: and therefore his works bear testimony to the fact that he is saved, since he does them even though he does not receive the reward of salvation over doing them.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Brethren, the trap those like CharismaticLady has fallen into, the doctrines of devils from hirelings, is this warning from Apostle Paul for the last days...
1 Tim 4:1-2
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV
Our belief on Jesus Christ and being baptized in His name, does NOT... make us gods.
The very first sin was that by Satan coveting God's throne. Satan still wants to be GOD, and worshiped as GOD.
The first sin by flesh man and woman (Adam and Eve) was also this same sin of thinking to become your own god.
That is what OSAS supports, the false belief that you have become perfect and without sin, which is the false thinking of becoming your own Christ (or god).
This is exactly what the Secret Societies of occultism teach. They teach that through spiritual exercises you can control hidden forces, and influence this natural world through those occult powers, and eventually become your own god.
This is why the Charismatic movement today is so focused on the spiritual manifestations going on in places such as shown in Andrew Strorm's Kundalini Warning (kundalini warning - YouTube).
This is why one like CharismaticLady would say that Romans 7 is not for the Church, which of course is a lie from the Charismatic movement. We still sin, all the way up to either our flesh death, or Christ's 2nd coming. Like Paul showed in Romans 3:25, our first belief on Jesus covered our sins that were past, not future sins we may slip up and do. In Romans 7 Apostle Paul showed we cannot escape that state while in this flesh, which is why we need Jesus Christ.
The reason why the OSAS doctrine of men is so dangerous, is because it will place you in the group that claimed to have many works in Jesus' name, but worked iniquity:
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV
Apostle Paul gave us Romans 7 to show that we will still slip up and sin all the way either to our flesh death, or to Christ's 2nd coming.
Those who wrongly believe we cannot sin anymore after having believed on Jesus Christ, are actually being taught to not CHECK THEMSELVES for sin in their lives. It is a direct attack against the WALK WITH JESUS BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
To believe that we cannot sin anymore means to not watch out for sin. It even means to cut off The Holy Spirit from warning us when we get in a situation where we might sin! This is why that group will be found having 'worked' iniquity when Jesus appears, and that regardless of how much they claim to prophesy and do miracles in Christ's name!
1 Tim 4:1-2
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV
Our belief on Jesus Christ and being baptized in His name, does NOT... make us gods.
The very first sin was that by Satan coveting God's throne. Satan still wants to be GOD, and worshiped as GOD.
The first sin by flesh man and woman (Adam and Eve) was also this same sin of thinking to become your own god.
That is what OSAS supports, the false belief that you have become perfect and without sin, which is the false thinking of becoming your own Christ (or god).
This is exactly what the Secret Societies of occultism teach. They teach that through spiritual exercises you can control hidden forces, and influence this natural world through those occult powers, and eventually become your own god.
This is why the Charismatic movement today is so focused on the spiritual manifestations going on in places such as shown in Andrew Strorm's Kundalini Warning (kundalini warning - YouTube).
This is why one like CharismaticLady would say that Romans 7 is not for the Church, which of course is a lie from the Charismatic movement. We still sin, all the way up to either our flesh death, or Christ's 2nd coming. Like Paul showed in Romans 3:25, our first belief on Jesus covered our sins that were past, not future sins we may slip up and do. In Romans 7 Apostle Paul showed we cannot escape that state while in this flesh, which is why we need Jesus Christ.
The reason why the OSAS doctrine of men is so dangerous, is because it will place you in the group that claimed to have many works in Jesus' name, but worked iniquity:
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV
Apostle Paul gave us Romans 7 to show that we will still slip up and sin all the way either to our flesh death, or to Christ's 2nd coming.
Those who wrongly believe we cannot sin anymore after having believed on Jesus Christ, are actually being taught to not CHECK THEMSELVES for sin in their lives. It is a direct attack against the WALK WITH JESUS BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
To believe that we cannot sin anymore means to not watch out for sin. It even means to cut off The Holy Spirit from warning us when we get in a situation where we might sin! This is why that group will be found having 'worked' iniquity when Jesus appears, and that regardless of how much they claim to prophesy and do miracles in Christ's name!
Romans 7 is followed up by Romans 8. Romans 7 speaks of the law of sin and death; and Romans 8 tells us that the law of the Spirit of life has set us free from the law of sin and death.
Also, there are certain scriptures that tell us that we can have victory and freedom from the committing of sins, in Christ. John 8:31-36 (kjv), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv), 1 John 3:9 9kjv), 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14, Jude 1:24 (kjv), 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv), 1 John 2:10. There are more than just these; they are all over the word.
There are two types of Romans 7 experiences: saved and unsaved. The saved Romans 7 experience is identified by a discontentedness at being bound by sin: the heart's cry is Wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death? The unsaved Romans 7 experience is the one who reads the chapter and sees it as a license; and also has no remorse or hatred or discontentedness over the state they are in.
The justified person looks at God's promises and doesn't waver at the concept of receiving them someday. He believes that, even if they are not fulfilled in his life in the present moment, that the promises are nevertheless true and that he can someday and somehow obtain them by faith (see Romans 4:20-22).
There is a false doctrine and heresy being taught in the church today that I will identify as the inevitablilty of sin.
It teaches that sin is inevitable, and that we can never have consistent victory because, as they say from the pulpit, "you are going to sin."
This is a lie from the pit of hell. 1 John 3:9 may be hyperbole; but I do believe that it refutes this concept of the inevitability of sin even if it is hyperbole. It is saying that there will be a marked difference in your behaviour away from sin if you are truly born again.
Whenever we come across this false doctrine any pulpit, may we tenaciously reject it in our hearts and cling to the biblical teaching that we can obtain, by faith, the state of entire sanctification in this life.
Now we consider that even though the Bible teaches we can come to place in our Christian walk wherein we don't sin anymore, yet in 1 John 1:8 and in Philippians 3:12-15 we find that if anyone believes they have attained to that level they are not yet in the state of perfection. If anyone thinks he is standing let him take heed lest he fall, is the exhortation of 1 Corinthians 10:12 also.
Therefore being in a state of holiness does not mean that we are not to be on the lookout and on guard against sin. If anyone believes otherwise as a proponent of holiness doctrine, I do not believe that they hold to an accurate understanding of what the doctrine teaches.
If anyone is truly entirely sanctified, they do not know their own soul and therefore their behaviour will be as if they are still pressing forward. See Job 9:21 and compare to 1 John 1:8. Also Philippians 3:12-15.
But that we can be entirely sanctified in this life is evident in the following verses:
1 John 3:9 (kjv), 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14; Jude 1:24 (kjv), 2 Peter 1:10 (kjv), 1 John 2:10; John 8:31-36 (kjv), 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv). There are more; but I do not want to overwhelm anyone so that they don't look up any of them. The ones that I have referenced are a good start.
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