Physcial Healing or Spiritual Healing?

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BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
Your evidence for hell does not stand up to the Theological debate that acknowledges that a present hell cannot even be verified, with all due respect. I could google it for you, if you like.
But as i said, i have no desire to sway the fearful from a concept of a future hell, if that is all that keeps them in check.
Have a good day.
There is no "past", "present" or "future" Hell.
There is only ONE Hell and I have provided ample Scriptural proof for it.

So far - you have been unable to debunk those verses and have instead chosen to offer opinions instead of Scriptural proof against it.
YOUR universalist view that everybody will be saved is not supported by Scripture.

Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell . . .
Daniel 12:2,3
Matthew 25:46
John 5:28
Revelation 20:14,15

Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ . . .
Matthew 13:41,50
Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8

Hell is conscious torment . . .
Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

Hell is eternal and irreversible . . .
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
 

bbyrd009

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well, all i can tell you is that this is debated by finer minds than ours, and most of the time "hell" is just Gehenna misinterpreted, imo. There is another term rendered "hell," i guess; http://biblehub.com/greek/5020.htm, Tartarus, but again, like Hades, we are now talking Greek mythology, not Christianity.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire. The tongue, a world of unrighteousness, is placed among the parts of our bodies. It pollutes the whole body, sets the course of life on fire, and is set on fire by hell.

is kind of interesting, in this light, i think. But my position is that one is not fit to teach what they do not know, especially once they have got hold of some tares, and are now seven times worse off than before they started seeking; which happens a lot, i guess. It happened to me, too. The profoundest thing i have learned in 40+ years is that i do not know. And i am assured that you do not know either. And you have to admit that a concept of hell in the afterlife is a great way to keep selfish people in line, lol. But there is no reason why any of those verses that you quote cannot be applied to right now, where Eternity is occurring in, i don't think. And untill you entertain this likelyhood, it seems that there are just too many passages that you cannot address, like the ones you have not addressed here.

And imo this goes directly to "physical or spiritual healing," which is why i persist. Really i am fine with your belief in a hell in the afterlife, if you are comfortable relying on Greek mythology for your beliefs. And i do not mean to imply that suffering will not come from sinning, either; just that i learned that the hard way a long time ago, so i don't spend a lot of time on it now. I learned that eating a hot dog is a kind of prayer, too. Or confession, whatever. The chief hypocrisy in most religions seems to be how they separate "the spiritual" from IRL, which i don't believe is even possible.

18 I will cancel the bargain you made to cheat death, and I will overturn your deal to dodge the grave. When the terrible enemy sweeps through, you will be trampled into the ground.

that is God talking, through Ezekiel, so i guess this is nothing new. It would be in your own interest to reflect upon whether you might have been completely deceived in this, as difficult as i know that is. You would have to start by seeing that you do not know, and question anything that you feel that you do know, for a fact. As Scripture directs us to do. I can plainly admit to you that i do not know where i am going, ok, and if Tartarus gets shown to me on that day, and Greek mythology ends up containing some truth, i will not be shaken in my faith in God. But it seems to me that many people who know stuff right now for a fact--even if they don't really know, as the Book says--are going to be in a different place, spiritually--one of...well, i don't even know. Don't know about Universalism, either, but i do know that God's will is that all might rebound (repent, to you), and also what God wills is what happens.

So i would mostly like to suggest to anyone with Leukemia, or Diabetes, or Sterility, Autism, you name it, that these are terrible enemies. Which i don't mean to be taken wrong, God understands, and God is Love; but we are here to overcome, not succumb. Most all disease is self-inflicted, even if there are exceptions, and we can even read that God removes some people to spare them. But imo don't be surprised when your faith in Hell manifests in disease, especially if you spend all of your "spiritual" time discussing Sin, Death, and Hell, or even listening to someone else do it. If you figured out that doing evil gets you punished when you were like 3 years old, and rebounding and saying you're sorry and making amends repairs the spiritual damage, then what new info is that guy giving you, anyway? He is "re-laying the foundation," over and over, because of course that is what pays.

Pretty obvious that just as a diabetic doesn't want to hear "fast, and then eat right," because they have insulin, people sitting on the fence are not too interested in hearing "pick up your cross" or "leave town, today, the two of you, and stay in one house once you get there, and eat what they put in front of you" etc, right? So then Hell is what these people need to hear, imo, because after all it is what they are paying for.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
well, all i can tell you is that this is debated by finer minds than ours, and most of the time "hell" is just Gehenna misinterpreted, imo. There is another term rendered "hell," i guess; http://biblehub.com/greek/5020.htm, Tartarus, but again, like Hades, we are now talking Greek mythology, not Christianity.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire. The tongue, a world of unrighteousness, is placed among the parts of our bodies. It pollutes the whole body, sets the course of life on fire, and is set on fire by hell.

is kind of interesting, in this light, i think. But my position is that one is not fit to teach what they do not know, especially once they have got hold of some tares, and are now seven times worse off than before they started seeking; which happens a lot, i guess. It happened to me, too. The profoundest thing i have learned in 40+ years is that i do not know. And i am assured that you do not know either. And you have to admit that a concept of hell in the afterlife is a great way to keep selfish people in line, lol. But there is no reason why any of those verses that you quote cannot be applied to right now, where Eternity is occurring in, i don't think. And untill you entertain this likelyhood, it seems that there are just too many passages that you cannot address, like the ones you have not addressed here.

And imo this goes directly to "physical or spiritual healing," which is why i persist. Really i am fine with your belief in a hell in the afterlife, if you are comfortable relying on Greek mythology for your beliefs. And i do not mean to imply that suffering will not come from sinning, either; just that i learned that the hard way a long time ago, so i don't spend a lot of time on it now. I learned that eating a hot dog is a kind of prayer, too. Or confession, whatever. The chief hypocrisy in most religions seems to be how they separate "the spiritual" from IRL, which i don't believe is even possible.

18 I will cancel the bargain you made to cheat death, and I will overturn your deal to dodge the grave. When the terrible enemy sweeps through, you will be trampled into the ground.

that is God talking, through Ezekiel, so i guess this is nothing new. It would be in your own interest to reflect upon whether you might have been completely deceived in this, as difficult as i know that is. You would have to start by seeing that you do not know, and question anything that you feel that you do know, for a fact. As Scripture directs us to do. I can plainly admit to you that i do not know where i am going, ok, and if Tartarus gets shown to me on that day, and Greek mythology ends up containing some truth, i will not be shaken in my faith in God. But it seems to me that many people who know stuff right now for a fact--even if they don't really know, as the Book says--are going to be in a different place, spiritually--one of...well, i don't even know. Don't know about Universalism, either, but i do know that God's will is that all might rebound (repent, to you), and also what God wills is what happens.

So i would mostly like to suggest to anyone with Leukemia, or Diabetes, or Sterility, Autism, you name it, that these are terrible enemies. Which i don't mean to be taken wrong, God understands, and God is Love; but we are here to overcome, not succumb. Most all disease is self-inflicted, even if there are exceptions, and we can even read that God removes some people to spare them. But imo don't be surprised when your faith in Hell manifests in disease, especially if you spend all of your "spiritual" time discussing Sin, Death, and Hell, or even listening to someone else do it. If you figured out that doing evil gets you punished when you were like 3 years old, and rebounding and saying you're sorry and making amends repairs the spiritual damage, then what new info is that guy giving you, anyway? He is "re-laying the foundation," over and over, because of course that is what pays.

Pretty obvious that just as a diabetic doesn't want to hear "fast, and then eat right," because they have insulin, people sitting on the fence are not too interested in hearing "pick up your cross" or "leave town, today, the two of you, and stay in one house once you get there, and eat what they put in front of you" etc, right? So then Hell is what these people need to hear, imo, because after all it is what they are paying for.
First of all - the link you provided is a really sophomoric approach to Biblical linguistics.
Just because the WORD "Hell" doesn't appear in early texts disqualifies its meaning??
That is truly moronic.

As I already pointed out - Incarnation is not in the Bible but the teaching is.
Trinity is not in the Bible but the teaching is.
Bible is not in the Bible.

So, you are a Universalist? You believe that everybody is going to be saved??
Boy - talk about your Biblically untenable positions . . .
 

bbyrd009

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Well, i don't know what to tell ya; you are comfortable substituting other terms for terms that are already understood in Scripture, and i am not. The link--sophomoric to you tho it may be--is a pretty good summary of the argument that is also forwarded by Theology PhDs, who usually admit that they do not know. If that makes me a "moron" in your opinion, then so be it; at least i am not the one accepting scribed opinions about Gehenna. Or treating you like a dog.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
Well, i don't know what to tell ya; you are comfortable substituting other terms for terms that are already understood in Scripture, and i am not. The link--sophomoric to you tho it may be--is a pretty good summary of the argument that is also forwarded by Theology PhDs, who usually admit that they do not know. If that makes me a "moron" in your opinion, then so be it; at least i am not the one accepting scribed opinions about Gehenna. Or treating you like a dog.
And I never called you a "moron" so try to he honest okay?

Secondly - simply because the WORD "Hell" is not a first century word does not mean that the idea or doctrine of Hell cannot exist as I showed you in the case of those other 3 words.

Finally - you never answered my question about Universalism.
Are you a Universalist? Do you believe that everybody will be saved?
 

bbyrd009

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Secondly - simply because the WORD "Hell" is not a first century word does not mean that the idea or doctrine of Hell cannot exist as I showed you in the case of those other 3 words.
my premise is that you are proceeding from a conclusion, a given, when truth cannot be perceived from that angle. It would be better, imo, to discard the doctrine that developed, that everyone on the wide path assumes to be truth now, and discover Gehenna for yourself, right here in Erets. It is you that will reap what you sow. "Everyone knows" that Hell is a place of fire in the afterlife now, right? :)

Finally - you never answered my question about Universalism.
Are you a Universalist? Do you believe that everybody will be saved?
well, just like most or all of our fundamental concepts, imo the definition of "saved" that most people carry around is a very poor one, at best. The path is narrow, and few find it; now whether that is meant to be understood as "in a particular moment"--which is entirely possible--or not, i don't know. I do know that what God wills comes to pass, and it is God's will that all might be "saved."

I note that, despite the constant barrage of MSM indicating otherwise, we pretty much all live a much nicer existence than even 100 years ago--who would prefer to go back to then? And while this may not be much succor to someone whose sky is falling, right now, it nonetheless speaks to the whole of Erets getting there, "step by step," as the Revelation points out.

I believe everyone has some good in them, and they have the free will to develop more, or sear their conscience, and it is they who will reap what they sow. Salvation is not an on/off switch, iow, as is so often forwarded. At least imo. This concept developed because there were buyers for it, imo, and sellers will naturally always arise. But Samuel and Saul are obviously in the same place, if you believe the Book; so imo Christ's passages on the matter may be read with more than one premise in mind, and it is one's premises that will dictate how the passage is read.

Einstein will live forever, and he has been dead for 50 years. Joan of Arc is still remembered, and she never wrote a word. "Eternal" might not mean what you think it means, coming from a Being that instructs us to Understand I AM, and is outside of time.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
my premise is that you are proceeding from a conclusion, a given, when truth cannot be perceived from that angle. It would be better, imo, to discard the doctrine that developed, that everyone on the wide path assumes to be truth now, and discover Gehenna for yourself, right here in Erets. It is you that will reap what you sow. "Everyone knows" that Hell is a place of fire in the afterlife now, right?
The Bible is clear that Hell is a place of eternal torment and separation from God.


bbyrd009 said:
well, just like most or all of our fundamental concepts, imo the definition of "saved" that most people carry around is a very poor one, at best. The path is narrow, and few find it; now whether that is meant to be understood as "in a particular moment"--which is entirely possible--or not, i don't know. I do know that what God wills comes to pass, and it is God's will that all might be "saved."

I note that, despite the constant barrage of MSM indicating otherwise, we pretty much all live a much nicer existence than even 100 years ago--who would prefer to go back to then? And while this may not be much succor to someone whose sky is falling, right now, it nonetheless speaks to the whole of Erets getting there, "step by step," as the Revelation points out.

I believe everyone has some good in them, and they have the free will to develop more, or sear their conscience, and it is they who will reap what they sow. Salvation is not an on/off switch, iow, as is so often forwarded. At least imo. This concept developed because there were buyers for it, imo, and sellers will naturally always arise. But Samuel and Saul are obviously in the same place, if you believe the Book; so imo Christ's passages on the matter may be read with more than one premise in mind, and it is one's premises that will dictate how the passage is read.

Einstein will live forever, and he has been dead for 50 years. Joan of Arc is still remembered, and she never wrote a word. "Eternal" might not mean what you think it means, coming from a Being that instructs us to Understand I AM, and is outside of time.
Another one of your long diatribes that completely dances around the question.
Do you believe that everybody will be saved?

It's a simple question.
 

BreadOfLife

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the stranger

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http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
Do you believe in an eternal heaven? If so, how can you believe that is literal and hell is not? And further, what parts of the bible are literal and what parts are not? Do we just pick and choose what we want? Maybe we can disregard Jesus crucified and risen too. Or maybe there was a reason He willingly was crucified. Maybe to save us from death and give us eternal life. Yet we all die in this body.
Do you believe in eternal existence? Maybe for the believer but not the rejecter. So, how will justice ever play out? If everlasting punishment is just a misunderstanding I guess we need not have fear in regards to God and His justice. But what about all the wrongs done to you and everyone else? Just death and no punishment?
Bread of life layed some pretty solid scripture down and it seems in your lengthy answer that you disregard it all as a misunderstanding, a figure of speach, and nothing to fear. But this leaves us with no words in the bible on which to stand on the Solid Rock.
I can relate to the hell and brimstone preaching. Most that accept Christ on this level are short term it seems. God calls us to serve Him out of love, but with a dose of fear, or respect. If God is love, does not He also have to be Judge? Will God force all who want nothing to do with Himself to heaven anyways, where there is no sin? Of course not. He cannot. And if He could, would that not be hell for the rejecter? And so where else is there? God is everywhere. Where when we go from His love? Yet, He did make one place, a place where He does not go, a place He reserved for all those who forever reject their Maker and forever reject the entire reason for our being created.
 

bbyrd009

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the stranger said:
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
Do you believe in an eternal heaven? If so, how can you believe that is literal and hell is not? And further, what parts of the bible are literal and what parts are not? Do we just pick and choose what we want? Maybe we can disregard Jesus crucified and risen too. Or maybe there was a reason He willingly was crucified. Maybe to save us from death and give us eternal life. Yet we all die in this body.
Do you believe in eternal existence? Maybe for the believer but not the rejecter. So, how will justice ever play out? If everlasting punishment is just a misunderstanding I guess we need not have fear in regards to God and His justice. But what about all the wrongs done to you and everyone else? Just death and no punishment?
Bread of life layed some pretty solid scripture down and it seems in your lengthy answer that you disregard it all as a misunderstanding, a figure of speach, and nothing to fear. But this leaves us with no words in the bible on which to stand on the Solid Rock.
I can relate to the hell and brimstone preaching. Most that accept Christ on this level are short term it seems. God calls us to serve Him out of love, but with a dose of fear, or respect. If God is love, does not He also have to be Judge? Will God force all who want nothing to do with Himself to heaven anyways, where there is no sin? Of course not. He cannot. And if He could, would that not be hell for the rejecter? And so where else is there? God is everywhere. Where when we go from His love? Yet, He did make one place, a place where He does not go, a place He reserved for all those who forever reject their Maker and forever reject the entire reason for our being created.
ok, i'll start at the top. Yes, i believe in a heaven, which is not a place, but where God is, which is everywhere. I can believe that is "literal"--even though it is not a place--while hell is not, because you cannot find hell as you understand it even in the Book, except as Tartarus, when referring to a "place" that fallen angels will end up, which cannot even be proven to exist from Scripture right now, but is postulated for the end of times, iow when time is over, or at least our time. The rest of those references to "hell" in the NT mistranslate Gehenna, and i again have to point out that you have begun from a conclusion, that being "there is a physical place called hell after my physical death that unaccepted people go to, and there is actual fire there." Which concept you did not arrive at on your own, it was given you, but nonetheless "everyone" more or less accepts this, disregarding much other Scripture that suggests otherwise; Scriptures which i have mentioned more than once now, but never get picked up for discussion.

So regardless of the heavy weight of public opinion, it is i who should be asking you where you got this notion, because there has been no case yet in which some loving Christian has quoted "hell" at me where i can actually read "hell," and you are welcome to try. Do we just pick and choose what we want? Apparently, yes, unless you can quote "hell" to me from Scripture, the Lexicon, which we already know that you cannot do. Never mind your "maybe we can disregard Christ, too" for now, ok, this just clouds the picture, but i could lay out a pretty clear concept of the Nehushtan worship that passes for "not disregarding Christ" among many or most that consider themselves "believers" right now--actually i have, more than once, and again, no one wishes to examine those verses, i have not been quoted once there.

"Yet we all die in this body." Boy, you said a mouthful there, and this can be taken more than one way. Physical death is irrelevant to God, and the walking dead, the spiritually dead, are a well developed theme in Scripture. See, i am assuming that you mean the second death, peoples' physical death, but we are called to "die" to ourselves way before that, aren't we. And i could make a case for people in defense mode, defending what they do not know, and belittling others and dehumanizing them in the process as not having died to themselves at all. So maybe you could clarify this., "yet we all die in this body," because i might be misinterpreting your meaning there.

Do you believe in eternal existence? Maybe for the believer but not the rejecter. So, how will justice ever play out? If everlasting punishment is just a misunderstanding I guess we need not have fear in regards to God and His justice. But what about all the wrongs done to you and everyone else? Just death and no punishment?
I observe that those doing evil are not long hidden, and you reap what you sow. The wrongs done to me and everyone else are brought to light, and the evildoers are exposed and defrocked, exiled, and die in ignominy, are not celebrated, and become monster stories that we tell our children. You can surely reflect upon how someone in this position might wish they were dead, right? Much better to expose them to love and forgiveness, and heap "burning coals" (ahem) on their heads, imo. But this does not fit our desire for "punishment" much, now does it :)

Bread of life layed some pretty solid scripture down and it seems in your lengthy answer that you disregard it all as a misunderstanding, a figure of speach, and nothing to fear. But this leaves us with no words in the bible on which to stand on the Solid Rock.
you might see that exactly the opposite is true, and heaping burning coals on their heads is a great reflection of Gehenna, a place i can take you to and show you, while hell is actually the concept that has been made up, a chimera, out of your desire for punishment and your desire for eternal life, for saving your own soul, for becoming a god on your terms and not God's, however you want to put it. The battle is within you, who desires punishment--for those you have deemed evil, of course; so that you can be the arbiter of this (the common "you" there, not you necessarily ok)--and maybe rejects burning coals, all while "knowing" about some other concept of hell that no one can prove, or even exegete. Gehenna is very real, ok, and so is Tartarus, for that matter; but these are spiritual states, not physical places, almost surely. And you are on solid ground as long as you postulate a future hell as Tartarus for evil spirits to reside. Beyond that, you are off the Res, and Scripture is being misinterpreted.

Yet, He did make one place, a place where He does not go, a place He reserved for all those who forever reject their Maker and forever reject the entire reason for our being created.
So show me this place then, from Scripture. We are reinventing the wheel here, and Drs of Theology can't do it, but you are welcome to give it a try.

May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.
The offspring of evildoers will never be remembered.

2And if they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the Lord says:

“ ‘Those destined for death, to death;
those for the sword, to the sword;
those for starvation, to starvation;
those for captivity, to captivity.’

So, imagine some place in the "spirit world," after your physical death, in defiance of much Scripture, all you like. There is no fire of punishment in Hades, in Greek mythology. None. Should you choose to follow GM, anyway. It is misplacing Gehenna to some imagined future that is the sin, imo. To take just the first NT quote from BoL, above,

Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

it is possibly being forgotten that this is a parable, a "the kingdom is LIKE" story, that begins with

14For it is just like a man going on a journey. He called his own slaves and turned over his possessions to them.

see, you are not ever going to actually get any "talents" per se to go and invest. And the Kingdom is coming here, to Earth, step by step. So in your desire to have it your way, Disney-Heaven in some imaginary afterlife has been created--and it is a dang good bidness, lemme tell you--when the Book assures us that you do not know where you come from, or where you are going. It is a perfectly good parable to relate to little children who are concerned with saving their souls, and do not too much care about the rest of creation, but this is just playing upon our fears, and the Kingdom is still coming here, to Earth.

Now obviously there is an Eternal Punishment, at least figuratively speaking, but for all you know Hitler is right next to Samuel, right now, having to bear what we say about him v what is said about Samuel, for eternity. Or maybe worse yet, no one is blaming him, now, and he is surrounded by Love, with his memories, and i imagine they are rather hard to bear.

Just picture it; Samuel walks up to Hitler, who now knows what we do not, and he's like "Hey Hitler, don't take it too hard, you were duly elected; no one here looks down on you" or whatever--this would again be "burning coals" heaped upon his head, as he would be wallowing in shame, and having no Cover to avail him--an assumption--Love would be pretty hard to bear. Light is not pleasant, to those who choose darkness.

Understand I AM. Bible search all the instances of "today" in the Book; these are compelling, imo.

Concern yourself with today, and forget about tomorrow, your current, selfish preoccupation. You are going to reap what you are sowing, and if you spend your life sowing judgement after death to someone God put in front of you so that you might manifest Christ and the kingdom to them right now, then what have you done? You have justified not serving them; and you might even get agreement from your peers, and they might even "deserve it," but these are not the point--and these are not how your heart will be judged. Woe to those who lay burdens upon you that they cannot even pick up; and this is what your "hell" is. It is a great way to keep the subject on sin and death--Christians' favorite subjects--and away from today.
 

bbyrd009

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BreadOfLife said:
You didn't answer the question - again.

I'll ask a THIRD time:
Do you believe that everybody will be saved?

To make it simpler for you: Will everybody wind up in the SAME place?
ask your moot questions as many times as you like, BoL, what i believe is irrelevant, just like what you believe. Love believes all things. You do not know where you are going, or where you came from. All go to the same place, yes, as Samuel plainly channelled through the Witch of Endor. To make this simpler for you, you are a person, prone to taking things much too literally, and from your own limited perspective, which is why there has to be a physical place, and a literal time, in your "afterlife," because all you can relate to is physical places, in time, right now--but God is not bound by these; you are.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
ok, i'll start at the top. Yes, i believe in a heaven, which is not a place, but where God is, which is everywhere. I can believe that is "literal"--even though it is not a place--while hell is not, because you cannot find hell as you understand it even in the Book, except as Tartarus, when referring to a "place" that fallen angels will end up, which cannot even be proven to exist from Scripture right now, but is postulated for the end of times, iow when time is over, or at least our time. The rest of those references to "hell" in the NT mistranslate Gehenna, and i again have to point out that you have begun from a conclusion, that being "there is a physical place called hell after my physical death that unaccepted people go to, and there is actual fire there." Which concept you did not arrive at on your own, it was given you, but nonetheless "everyone" more or less accepts this, disregarding much other Scripture that suggests otherwise; Scriptures which i have mentioned more than once now, but never get picked up for discussion.

So regardless of the heavy weight of public opinion, it is i who should be asking you where you got this notion, because there has been no case yet in which some loving Christian has quoted "hell" at me where i can actually read "hell," and you are welcome to try. Do we just pick and choose what we want? Apparently, yes, unless you can quote "hell" to me from Scripture, the Lexicon, which we already know that you cannot do. Never mind your "maybe we can disregard Christ, too" for now, ok, this just clouds the picture, but i could lay out a pretty clear concept of the Nehushtan worship that passes for "not disregarding Christ" among many or most that consider themselves "believers" right now--actually i have, more than once, and again, no one wishes to examine those verses, i have not been quoted once there.

"Yet we all die in this body." Boy, you said a mouthful there, and this can be taken more than one way. Physical death is irrelevant to God, and the walking dead, the spiritually dead, are a well developed theme in Scripture. See, i am assuming that you mean the second death, peoples' physical death, but we are called to "die" to ourselves way before that, aren't we. And i could make a case for people in defense mode, defending what they do not know, and belittling others and dehumanizing them in the process as not having died to themselves at all. So maybe you could clarify this., "yet we all die in this body," because i might be misinterpreting your meaning there.

I observe that those doing evil are not long hidden, and you reap what you sow. The wrongs done to me and everyone else are brought to light, and the evildoers are exposed and defrocked, exiled, and die in ignominy, are not celebrated, and become monster stories that we tell our children. You can surely reflect upon how someone in this position might wish they were dead, right? Much better to expose them to love and forgiveness, and heap "burning coals" (ahem) on their heads, imo. But this does not fit our desire for "punishment" much, now does it :)

you might see that exactly the opposite is true, and heaping burning coals on their heads is a great reflection of Gehenna, a place i can take you to and show you, while hell is actually the concept that has been made up, a chimera, out of your desire for punishment and your desire for eternal life, for saving your own soul, for becoming a god on your terms and not God's, however you want to put it. The battle is within you, who desires punishment--for those you have deemed evil, of course; so that you can be the arbiter of this (the common "you" there, not you necessarily ok)--and maybe rejects burning coals, all while "knowing" about some other concept of hell that no one can prove, or even exegete. Gehenna is very real, ok, and so is Tartarus, for that matter; but these are spiritual states, not physical places, almost surely. And you are on solid ground as long as you postulate a future hell as Tartarus for evil spirits to reside. Beyond that, you are off the Res, and Scripture is being misinterpreted.

So show me this place then, from Scripture. We are reinventing the wheel here, and Drs of Theology can't do it, but you are welcome to give it a try.

May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.
The offspring of evildoers will never be remembered.

2And if they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the Lord says:

“ ‘Those destined for death, to death;
those for the sword, to the sword;
those for starvation, to starvation;
those for captivity, to captivity.’

So, imagine some place in the "spirit world," after your physical death, in defiance of much Scripture, all you like. There is no fire of punishment in Hades, in Greek mythology. None. Should you choose to follow GM, anyway. It is misplacing Gehenna to some imagined future that is the sin, imo. To take just the first NT quote from BoL, above,

Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

it is possibly being forgotten that this is a parable, a "the kingdom is LIKE" story, that begins with

14For it is just like a man going on a journey. He called his own slaves and turned over his possessions to them.

see, you are not ever going to actually get any "talents" per se to go and invest. And the Kingdom is coming here, to Earth, step by step. So in your desire to have it your way, Disney-Heaven in some imaginary afterlife has been created--and it is a dang good bidness, lemme tell you--when the Book assures us that you do not know where you come from, or where you are going. It is a perfectly good parable to relate to little children who are concerned with saving their souls, and do not too much care about the rest of creation, but this is just playing upon our fears, and the Kingdom is still coming here, to Earth.

Now obviously there is an Eternal Punishment, at least figuratively speaking, but for all you know Hitler is right next to Samuel, right now, having to bear what we say about him v what is said about Samuel, for eternity. Or maybe worse yet, no one is blaming him, now, and he is surrounded by Love, with his memories, and i imagine they are rather hard to bear.

Just picture it; Samuel walks up to Hitler, who now knows what we do not, and he's like "Hey Hitler, don't take it too hard, you were duly elected; no one here looks down on you" or whatever--this would again be "burning coals" heaped upon his head, as he would be wallowing in shame, and having no Cover to avail him--an assumption--Love would be pretty hard to bear. Light is not pleasant, to those who choose darkness.

Understand I AM. Bible search all the instances of "today" in the Book; these are compelling, imo.

Concern yourself with today, and forget about tomorrow, your current, selfish preoccupation. You are going to reap what you are sowing, and if you spend your life sowing judgement after death to someone God put in front of you so that you might manifest Christ and the kingdom to them right now, then what have you done? You have justified not serving them; and you might even get agreement from your peers, and they might even "deserve it," but these are not the point--and these are not how your heart will be judged. Woe to those who lay burdens upon you that they cannot even pick up; and this is what your "hell" is. It is a great way to keep the subject on sin and death--Christians' favorite subjects--and away from today.
Why is it that you cannot answer the question I have asked FIVE times now??

Here it is again:
Do you believe that everybody will be saved?

To make it simpler for you: Will everybody wind up in the SAME place?
 

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BreadOfLife said:
Why is it that you cannot answer the question I have asked FIVE times now??

Here it is again:
Do you believe that everybody will be saved?

To make it simpler for you: Will everybody wind up in the SAME place?
Because your question is moot, with all due respect, as i have already mentioned. You posit places that you have not experienced, and have no quotes for, and do not know; there are no "places," except in the physical plane--your domain--and God is not bound by your perceptions. Yes, "all go to the same place," but this does not mean that all will be in the same spiritual place, "there." Samuel plainly tells Saul "You and your sons will be here with me." So, just as in Isaiah's time,

Isaiah 28:15 You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death ...

Isaiah 28:18 NLT: I will cancel the bargain you made to cheat death

so, there is nothing new under the sun, and your concept of hell in an afterlife is no different from the guys down at the bar. The concept arises from a need to judge others, and to justify yourself, just like everyone else does, me included, ok, i am "two men in a bed" too, and what is not being faced here is that your beliefs manifest from your faith, and your heart is being weighed in this, unbeknownst to you. This is why you must resort to belittling and name-calling, no offense, because that's all you got, and you are sowing what you are going to reap, just like i am.

You have made a bargain with death when you put life off until some undetermined tomorrow, and the lesson of Esau, who despised his birthright, is equally not being considered here. Your birthright is to manifest God in the here and now. Pick up your cross and follow, meet Him in the Air, right now, and abandon this ridiculous notion that Paul craved physical death in order to be with Christ, which is how you must interpret that passage in your current model. Paul was already "absent from the body," see; he had already died to himself; he was already one guy standing in a field; the other had already been taken, for him. Paul was no longer conflicted, iow. He was boiled in oil, stoned, all manner of opportunities to give up the ghost, had he wanted. We still hold Paul up, today; what are the names of those who persecuted him? Can you name even one? One that is familiar to a general audience? They have all been forgotten.

"Narrow is the path, and few there are that find it" might be understood in that context. So you ask me if everyone will be saved, when that is not for me to even try to answer. And if i did, it would be a guess, too. I am not a prognosticator, or an eschatologist, divining the future for others to consume, for money. I have no bargain with death, to hold God to, or else abandon my faith. Wadr you are asking about "everyone," but you are calling another guy "father," and doing penance, and teaching your kids fertility rites, so i would be seeking my own salvation, and only then maybe worrying about other people. You can't teach what you don't know.

(I'm debating "hell" here with people who cannot even find Passover, already, i must be nuts myself)

Look with all due respect, you seek indisputable facts from people who know, ok; and this defies Scripture. This person does not exist, although many pretend to it. You would be better...well, you would surely feel better getting your answers from people who will just keep confirming what you already believe; that way you don't have to change your mind, and you can be at peace, like you desire.

Remember, you have all of the good things in your life, right now, isn't that true? I am a guy who lives under a bridge, posting from a Wendy's; what do i have to say that could possibly interest you? I mean no offense, ok, and i don't mean for you to take these things that i meant generally speaking, personally. Maybe you are an exception, i don't know--maybe you can actually find some food in a store that is not doused with soy...although i'd like to hear what that is, even your produce is sprayed with soy wax now, etc. Maybe you can serve two masters, and can justify these actions to yourself, as you offer to teach others about your bargain with death. I can't.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
Because your question is moot, with all due respect, as i have already mentioned. You posit places that you have not experienced, and have no quotes for, and do not know; there are no "places," except in the physical plane--your domain--and God is not bound by your perceptions. Yes, "all go to the same place," but this does not mean that all will be in the same spiritual place, "there." Samuel plainly tells Saul "You and your sons will be here with me." So, just as in Isaiah's time,

Isaiah 28:15 You boast, "We have entered into a covenant with death ...

Isaiah 28:18 NLT: I will cancel the bargain you made to cheat death

so, there is nothing new under the sun, and your concept of hell in an afterlife is no different from the guys down at the bar. The concept arises from a need to judge others, and to justify yourself, just like everyone else does, me included, ok, i am "two men in a bed" too, and what is not being faced here is that your beliefs manifest from your faith, and your heart is being weighed in this, unbeknownst to you. This is why you must resort to belittling and name-calling, no offense, because that's all you got, and you are sowing what you are going to reap, just like i am.

You have made a bargain with death when you put life off until some undetermined tomorrow, and the lesson of Esau, who despised his birthright, is equally not being considered here. Your birthright is to manifest God in the here and now. Pick up your cross and follow, meet Him in the Air, right now, and abandon this ridiculous notion that Paul craved physical death in order to be with Christ, which is how you must interpret that passage in your current model. Paul was already "absent from the body," see; he had already died to himself; he was already one guy standing in a field; the other had already been taken, for him. Paul was no longer conflicted, iow. He was boiled in oil, stoned, all manner of opportunities to give up the ghost, had he wanted. We still hold Paul up, today; what are the names of those who persecuted him? Can you even name one? One that is familiar to a general audience? They have all been forgotten.

"Narrow is the path, and few there are that find it" might be understood in that context. So you ask me if everyone will be saved, when that is not for me to even try to answer. And if i did, it would be a guess, too. I am not a prognosticator, or an eschatologist, divining the future for others to consume, for money. I have no bargain with death, to hold God to, or else abandon my faith. Wadr you are asking about "everyone," but you are calling another guy "father," and doing penance, and teaching your kids fertility rites, so i would be seeking my own salvation, and only then maybe worrying about other people. You can't teach what you don't know. I'm debating "hell" with people who cannot even find Passover, already, i must be nuts myself.
Since you can't seem to answer this extremely easy question - I'll ask it in a different way:
What do YOU think will happen to YOUR soul when you die?
 

bbyrd009

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BreadOfLife said:
Since you can't seem to answer this extremely easy question - I'll ask it in a different way:
What do YOU think will happen to YOUR soul when you die?
"No one knows where they go when they die."

i have already told you that it is not me who has made any bargains with death, and i am not going to prognosticate for you. I understand your desire to know the answer to this unanswerable question, and i suggest that many men who have all signed Contracts for Jesus are eager to do so for you if that is what you seek. See, you made your choice when you accepted the bargain with death; so my answers are not going to serve you.

You might notice in your seeking, that these men invariably also pledge allegiance, to a system that encourages such things as unfermented soy being jammed up every one of your orifices, not to mention atrazine, even in your fetuses now, and many other population reduction methods, not limited to perpetual war, drone-bombing, opiate addiction, etc. but of course they are able to separate themselves from these unpleasant things, and justify them--if they are not completely ignorant of them--even as they cover their hearts with their hands and make pledges, and pay taxes, and send their sons off to guard oil and poppy fields that they have stolen from the nations--the ones who don't suicide, anyway.

So go ask a victim of your drone bombs--which you assumed responsibility for when you pledged allegiance--where he thinks your soul will end up, following this model, lol. How 'bout we hear from the oppressed, and get their opinion? See, you maybe think you are prosperous, when you might really be blind, naked, and destitute, fighting an imaginary, arbitrary enemy that has been defined for you, just like hell was.

Trust in God, but it's sure nice to have the biggest dog on the planet too, huh? We all want our cake and eat it, too. Everyone wants a decent paying job, but nobody wants to stop shopping at Walmart. Lol. We give a nod to water conservation, but everyone's faucets are instant-on.

You are going to reap what you sow, and if you pledge allegiance to reptiles with plainly stated goals of population reduction, contrary to God, how can you reap anything less than sterility, homosexuality, autism, and diabetes? We got infants being born with cancer now--so iow we are eating our children now--and this comes on top of you not being able to recall the last person you knew who died peacefully in their sleep, full of years. You wanna know what comes next? Because it isn't a puzzle, ok--you are going to keep reaping what you are sowing, and i can read what happens after old people no longer die in their sleep, and the women cannot bear, and the infants they do bear are being consumed.

So life and death is set before you; choose one. See that "confessing" that you pick life, and then going and eating unfermented soy is hypocritical, and it is the "confession" of eating the soy that is going to hold water, and that other one is just mostly people working their jaw.

A pox upon your prognostications of tomorrow; what do you think about what is happening today, where you live, right now? Do you think Jesus is going to ride in on a White Horse and save you? Don't you have to assume that you are the one in the right for this to even be possible? That is a pretty prideful assumption, if you ask me.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
"No one knows where they go when they die."

i have already told you that it is not me who has made any bargains with death, and i am not going to prognosticate for you. I understand your desire to know the answer to this unanswerable question, and i suggest that many men who have all signed Contracts for Jesus are eager to do so for you if that is what you seek. See, you made your choice when you accepted the bargain with death; so my answers are not going to serve you.

You might notice in your seeking, that these men invariably also pledge allegiance, to a system that encourages such things as unfermented soy being jammed up every one of your orifices, not to mention atrazine, even in your fetuses now, and many other population reduction methods, not limited to perpetual war, drone-bombing, opiate addiction, etc. but of course they are able to separate themselves from these unpleasant things, and justify them--if they are not completely ignorant of them--even as they cover their hearts with their hands and make pledges, and pay taxes, and send their sons off to guard oil and poppy fields that they have stolen from the nations--the ones who don't suicide, anyway.

So go ask a victim of your drone bombs--which you assumed responsibility for when you pledged allegiance--where he thinks your soul will end up, following this model, lol. How 'bout we hear from the oppressed, and get their opinion? See, you maybe think you are prosperous, when you might really be blind, naked, and destitute, fighting an imaginary, arbitrary enemy that has been defined for you, just like hell was.

Trust in God, but it's sure nice to have the biggest dog on the planet too, huh? We all want our cake and eat it, too. Everyone wants a decent paying job, but nobody wants to stop shopping at Walmart. Lol. We give a nod to water conservation, but everyone's faucets are instant-on.

You are going to reap what you sow, and if you pledge allegiance to reptiles with plainly stated goals of population reduction, contrary to God, how can you reap anything less than sterility, homosexuality, autism, and diabetes? We got infants being born with cancer now--so iow we are eating our children now--and this comes on top of you not being able to recall the last person you knew who died peacefully in their sleep, full of years. You wanna know what comes next? Because it isn't a puzzle, ok--you are going to keep reaping what you are sowing, and i can read what happens after old people no longer die in their sleep, and the women cannot bear, and the infants they do bear are being consumed.

So life and death is set before you; choose one. See that "confessing" that you pick life, and then going and eating unfermented soy is hypocritical, and it is the "confession" of eating the soy that is going to hold water, and that other one is just mostly people working their jaw.

A pox upon your prognostications of tomorrow; what do you think about what is happening today, where you live, right now? Do you think Jesus is going to ride in on a White Horse and save you? Don't you have to assume that you are the one in the right for this to even be possible? That is a pretty prideful assumption, if you ask me.
Yet another cowardly and impotent response.

First, you state, "No one knows where they go when they die."
Then, you tell me, "You are going to reap what you sow."
You're very confused, to say the least.

Regardless of YOUR warped beliefs - the Bible is clear that there is a reward for the faithful (Luke 23:43, John 3:16, 14:2, 1 Cor. 2:9, Heb. 11:16, Rev. 21:4) and eternal punishment for the condemned (Matt. 13:41,50, Mark 9:48, Rev. 14:10, Rev. 14:11, Rev. 20:14, Rev. 20:15 ).

when you are judged - God is not going to accept your denial of His Truth as an excuse . . .
 

bbyrd009

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ok, well, i did not mean to come across as judgmental myself; there is nothing wrong with you just the way you are, and you can certainly believe what you like, it does not reflect upon me ok. You are still young, and very sure; and all i can tell you is that you are going to possibly come to question all that you are presently so sure of, if you keep seeking a deeper relationship with God. In the meantime, you are welcome to try and establish hell after death using Scripture, although as i say many Drs of Theology admit that this is not possible, and these treatises are a google away from you now.

You cannot debate what you have already reached a conclusion for; once you know something, there is a sense in which it becomes impossible to change your mind. You condemn me because you must, and i understand, ok, but you might contemplate your deal with death, and the bargain you have made, that colors all of your interpretation now.

You have been provided a comforting definition of "saved" that you believe, and you surely deem yourself the arbiter of this salvation, in your condemnation of me. This is the first step toward the justification of drone bombing nations (people) that you do not know, even if the progression is not immediately clear; books have been written on the subject--that you would not like--but even Catholics have commented upon this:

An exaggerated doctrine of Original Sin, as used for a starting point for spirituality, plays kindly into the hands of empire builders, slave-masters, etc. It divides (and therefore conquers), pitting your thoughts against your feelings, your body against your spirit, and your country against the world.
  • "The harm that has been done to souls during the centuries of Christianity, first by the literal interpretation of the story of Adam, and then by the confusion of this myth, treated as history, with later speculations, principally Augustinian, about Original Sin, will never be adequately told."
    Paul Ricoeur, The Symbolism of Evil
  • This is "dualism", recognized by sages from Eckhart to Daly as "the sin behind all sin." Separation. Subject/object relationships.
  • "Pleasure" becomes "sin" with this model. Leave it to an Accuser to turn pleasure into sin. An actual (Catholic) test for sin is "did you enjoy it?"
https://www.wikihow.com/Recognize-the-Fallacy-of-Death-Centric-Western-Christian-Models
and i hope you understand that i do not expect to be treated as anything more than an object by you, when i refuse to bow to your beliefs, and for what it's worth, for your future self, someday, i understand and forgive you, ok. I'm sure you are under the conception that you came here to help others with your knowledge, in service. Nothing wrong with that, it is a good hearted thing to do. But don't be too surprised if God has another idea, at least sometimes, and these conversations maybe don't always go as you planned, ok.

I for one am quite comfortable being condemned to a hell after death that you cannot prove from Scripture, if you are comfortable pledging allegiance to flags, and voting and paying taxes, and simultaneously raising the "defense" budget by another $50 Billion. Do you know what the interest on $50 Billion is? Because of course it must all be borrowed now, right, your Empire is technically insolvent of course, and i bet your municipality is too, huh.