Physcial Healing or Spiritual Healing?

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the stranger

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Bbyrd, thankyou for your response on my questions. I am really not in a position to try to debate nor convince you to believe other than what you believe, no doubt having very many differences. When all is said and done, only one thing will matter. Our we covered by the blood of our Savior Jesus Christ? Do we know Him personelly? Does He call us His friend and child? My hope, prayers, and desire is that we share this same hope in the end. If you have this hope, and I hope you do, my prayer is you continue to grow in Christ to become more like Him everyday He still gives us breath. And me as well. I lack full understanding, but i seek more and more grace. And look forward to the full understanding of my life, as well is so many others, and in this, as it is plainly written in Gods word, I firmly put my faith in.
 

bbyrd009

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Well, i surely agree with you in spirit, and i hope you find the Word, which is not plainly written in the Bible, although It points to It. This took me about...40 years to discover, and my hope is that it doesn't take you as long. There are certainly plenty of clues, but when one begins by allowing others to interpret for them, these clues become occluded, and we too become convinced that there is something "plainly written," when i could demonstrate otherwise at any passage you care to quote.

And far from diminishing the Book, this validates It, in my eyes, although that may not make too much sense to you at the moment. Imagine if you will, some very well-meaning people, who have decided that Christ is returning bodily, very soon, having just heard Him at the Sermon on the Mount, and selling all of their possessions, and waiting corporately for Him to return, just like they are sure that they heard. No doubt you are familiar with the relevant passages. Now, just imagine that these same people are the ones who developed the doctrines that you now believe are plainly written in the Book--even though they are not--and again i can prove it to you--or at least demonstrate the concept; i am not here to prove anything to anyone--with any doctrine you care to name.

These people, well intentioned though they may be, are naturally going to impart to you such passages as "If a man will not work, neither should he eat," because in their literal understanding, this is a principle that they can understand. But they prolly won't get around to quoting "Don't work for food..." in the same sermon, see, because they have a point to make, most likely. You have to go find that one for yourself. Paul has described these people, as has Christ ("If you then, being evil..."). So my premise is that you have gotten half of the story--or likely somewhat less--and you must go seek the other half.

And it is in there, in our Book of questions, sure enough; so the question then becomes "Are you strong enough to take the truth?" Because lemme tell you, you will know when you are getting close by the signs, because the world you live in right now, your comfortable existence, will be screaming at you, from every quarter, man, i mean your wife will be screaming, your pastor will be calling you on the carpet, your church will be having meetings concerning you, your kids will be looking at you funny, and your boss will even be giving you grief, ok. And your brain--lol, don't even get me started on what your brain is going to be spitting up at you. All from a few well-placed questions. Some of which you can read right in this thread, ok. The ones no one will answer, because they can't answer. That came right out of the Book.

Just imagine the furor that Breaking Up Nehushtan caused, even though that aspect is not recorded there in Kings--um, you're familiar with Nehushtan, right? You surely already heard many sermons on the subject, i guess, from those people that you trusted to clearly interpret the Book for you--and put yourself in the position of the worshippers of Nehushtan, even though you are really the Priest there, or will be when you are done anyway. But this is a lonely road, ok, and prolly should not even be attempted until you have come back from being driven into the wilderness. Or, i dunno, that's how it happened for me.

There are many other examples; you can just put yourself in Paul's place, for the three years after his epiphany, before he got with the Jerusalem Apostles, if you like. Again, this is (rather strangely) not described in the Book, which you might question at some point--the main author of the NT had an epiphany, a salvation experience, and the next three years of his life (on the run, of course) are occluded from you? Actually they are not, and we just gloss over those parts; there are clues. I mean, you don't think he just went back to his mansion, and his hot tub, and ordered a massage or something, do you? Who knows? I guess it was a minute before the bounty got put on his head, lol, maybe he milked it or something. But somehow i doubt it. I wish you the best should you take up this challenge, that is quite plainly in the Book.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
and you might note that the guy you stepped in for cannot apologize, and cannot even accept forgiveness for his sins.
If you're referring to ME - I didn't do anything that requires an apology.

I simply pointed out your heretical beliefs and exposed your contradictions on this thread.
 

bbyrd009

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bbyrd009 said:
Well, i surely agree with you in spirit, and i hope you find the Word, which is not plainly written in the Bible, although It points to It. This took me about...40 years to discover, and my hope is that it doesn't take you as long. There are certainly plenty of clues, but when one begins by allowing others to interpret for them, these clues become occluded, and we too become convinced that there is something "plainly written," when i could demonstrate otherwise at any passage you care to quote.

And far from diminishing the Book, this validates It, in my eyes, although that may not make too much sense to you at the moment. Imagine if you will, some very well-meaning people, who have decided that Christ is returning bodily, very soon, having just heard Him at the Sermon on the Mount, and selling all of their possessions, and waiting corporately for Him to return, just like they are sure that they heard. No doubt you are familiar with the relevant passages. Now, just imagine that these same people are the ones who developed the doctrines that you now believe are plainly written in the Book--even though they are not--and again i can prove it to you--or at least demonstrate the concept; i am not here to prove anything to anyone--with any doctrine you care to name.

These people, well intentioned though they may be, are naturally going to impart to you such passages as "If a man will not work, neither should he eat," because in their literal understanding, this is a principle that they can understand. But they prolly won't get around to quoting "Don't work for food..." in the same sermon, see, because they have a point to make, most likely. You have to go find that one for yourself. Paul has described these people, as has Christ ("If you then, being evil..."). So my premise is that you have gotten half of the story--or likely somewhat less--and you must go seek the other half.

And it is in there, in our Book of questions, sure enough; so the question then becomes "Are you strong enough to take the truth?" Because lemme tell you, you will know when you are getting close by the signs, because the world you live in right now, your comfortable existence, will be screaming at you, from every quarter, man, i mean your wife will be screaming, your pastor will be calling you on the carpet, your church will be having meetings concerning you, your kids will be looking at you funny, and your boss will even be giving you grief, ok. And your brain--lol, don't even get me started on what your brain is going to be spitting up at you. All from a few well-placed questions. Some of which you can read right in this thread, ok. The ones no one will answer, because they can't answer. That came right out of the Book.

Just imagine the furor that Breaking Up Nehushtan caused, even though that aspect is not recorded there in Kings--um, you're familiar with Nehushtan, right? You surely already heard many sermons on the subject, i guess, from those people that you trusted to clearly interpret the Book for you--and put yourself in the position of the worshippers of Nehushtan, even though you are really the Priest there, or will be when you are done anyway. But this is a lonely road, ok, and prolly should not even be attempted until you have come back from being driven into the wilderness. Or, i dunno, that's how it happened for me.

There are many other examples; you can just put yourself in Paul's place, for the three years after his epiphany, before he got with the Jerusalem Apostles, if you like. Again, this is (rather strangely) not described in the Book, which you might question at some point--the main author of the NT had an epiphany, a salvation experience, and the next three years of his life (on the run, of course) are occluded from you? Actually they are not, and we just gloss over those parts; there are clues. I mean, you don't think he just went back to his mansion, and his hot tub, and ordered a massage or something, do you? Who knows? I guess it was a minute before the bounty got put on his head, lol, maybe he milked it or something. But somehow i doubt it. I wish you the best should you take up this challenge, that is quite plainly in the Book.
prolly ok to take a dog with you; i notice that he stuck by my side :)
 

bbyrd009

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BreadOfLife said:
If you're referring to ME - I didn't do anything that requires an apology.

I simply pointed out your heretical beliefs and exposed your contradictions on this thread.
i hope you understand that IRL i would just run, and forgive you later, but we are not IRL here, we are in a forum, ostensibly discussing spiritual principles (while actually just tearing each other apart, mostly, yes?) So, my meaning is that normally i would never have brought it up again, because i understand where you are coming from, ok, you think you need to defend some belief, that i have not attacked that i am aware of, and so you feel compelled to go on the offense to do this.

See, the point is not how you justify yourself in your own eyes, but that you can justify offending people at all. Of course we all do this sometimes without meaning to, surely i have, too, so i will just say that surely i have done some things that require an apology, and i pretty much avoid getting offended by statements on forums, or even name calling, such as you have done.

I know having your beliefs shattered is not pleasant, and imo you are brave to even keep coming back here. Changing your mind such as Scripture directs us is not the pleasant thing that the phrase "change your mind" perhaps suggests to us, the way we understand that phrase now. I hope you come to see that the Book was presented to you from a point of view, same as It was me, and those who presented It to us left out all of the passages that did not fit with their beliefs; not intentionally, but because they were blinded to them, in order that they might fulfill their other desires, too. No matter who they were; Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Mormon, etc. There is no "correct religion" that God smiles down upon; these judgments are the domain of men. God judges the heart.

So let me be clear that what you believe right now is fine with me, if you can justify it with the Book. It doesn't matter if i can, or not; because your beliefs do not affect me, while your actions do. Seek your own salvation. There are no beliefs involved with "Love your neighbor as yourself," see; even if my neighbor is a professed Wiccan, i am called to treat him like any other neighbor--just like Catholic Charities does.

And ps that is where the real Catholic church is, those ladies don't even allow theological discussions there, and now i see why. Even the priests who sometimes came by would not engage on matters of belief there, but referred questioners to the parish building.

Beliefs manifest from faith (even though we start the other way around), which is the only way that Love can believe all things, i guess.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
i hope you understand that IRL i would just run, and forgive you later, but we are not IRL here, we are in a forum, ostensibly discussing spiritual principles (while actually just tearing each other apart, mostly, yes?) So, my meaning is that normally i would never have brought it up again, because i understand where you are coming from, ok, you think you need to defend some belief, that i have not attacked that i am aware of, and so you feel compelled to go on the offense to do this.

See, the point is not how you justify yourself in your own eyes, but that you can justify offending people at all. Of course we all do this sometimes without meaning to, surely i have, too, so i will just say that surely i have done some things that require an apology, and i pretty much avoid getting offended by statements on forums, or even name calling, such as you have done.

I know having your beliefs shattered is not pleasant, and imo you are brave to even keep coming back here. Changing your mind such as Scripture directs us is not the pleasant thing that the phrase "change your mind" perhaps suggests to us, the way we understand that phrase now. I hope you come to see that the Book was presented to you from a point of view, same as It was me, and those who presented It to us left out all of the passages that did not fit with their beliefs; not intentionally, but because they were blinded to them, in order that they might fulfill their other desires, too. No matter who they were; Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Mormon, etc. There is no "correct religion" that God smiles down upon; these judgments are the domain of men. God judges the heart.

So let me be clear that what you believe right now is fine with me, if you can justify it with the Book. It doesn't matter if i can, or not; because your beliefs do not affect me, while your actions do. Seek your own salvation. There are no beliefs involved with "Love your neighbor as yourself," see; even if my neighbor is a professed Wiccan, i am called to treat him like any other neighbor--just like Catholic Charities does.

And ps that is where the real Catholic church is, those ladies don't even allow theological discussions there, and now i see why. Even the priests who sometimes came by would not engage on matters of belief there, but referred questioners to the parish building.

Beliefs manifest from faith (even though we start the other way around), which is the only way that Love can believe all things, i guess.
And, as usual - your post is gibberish.

Try posting with shorter, pithy answers instead of these verbose rants of run-on sentences that go nowhere.
It makes it easier to have a conversation . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
are you just constitutionally unable to make a post without a personal attack, BoL?
It's not a "personal attack". It's an observation of your posts that are long and usually go nowhere.
It's difficult to dialogue with posts like that.
 

bbyrd009

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BreadOfLife said:
It's not a "personal attack". It's an observation of your posts that are long and usually go nowhere.
It's difficult to dialogue with posts like that.
ah--i didn't realize that that's what you thought you were trying to do, sorry. This word, "dialogue," i'm not sure it means what you think it means, BoL.
 

epostle1

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VictoryinJesus said:
[SIZE=12pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]19 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]–James 5: 14-20[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I don’t hear a promise is this passage of scripture for physical healing of the sick. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]I hear a promise for cleansing, repentance, and salvation; the purpose of the anointing of oil meaning Spirit. Should the prayer of the elders be for the Spirit of God to save the sick and raise him up spiritually or physically? Is not a prayer focused on salvation and repentance the sick’s best opportunity, if God chooses it to be so, to give the sick more time to grow and mature through sanctification for God's will and purpose? [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]It has been my experience the focus is on physical healing (maybe my experiences are rare.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]​I ask this question only because; although I am no elder, I do want to pray for others and the prayer to align with God's will. I use to think I could boldly pray for someone sick and hold tight to the promise of healing but after staying in His word and life circumstances that aligned with what His Word says, I am left with this: It is invasive for me to force my way into a tender moment a family is having and claim that scripture promises their loved one healing. I now believe a prayer for the Spirit aligns more with God's Word and is possibly a more effectual prayer. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.” John 16: 23-24[/SIZE]
I'm skipping back to the OP because the thread has degenerated to no topic. I have an observation on verse 14.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James is not giving directives, he is encouraging a practice that pre-dates his letter. Let him and let them strongly suggests this practice had already been in the church. I think the elders of the church received instructions from Jesus himself on how to pray for the sick. If not directly from Jesus, certainly from other Apostles. James says, "...let them" he does not say "do this"

Many Protestant churches have healing teams where they go into hospitals with the pastor and pray for the sick, using oil. I applaud this. The pastor has to get clearance from hospital administrators if they are not already on the list of visiting pastors.

The outward sign is the oil and the prayers; the inward sign is healing and forgiveness. That is the definition of a sacrament, an outward sign of an inward grace, so the word sacrament should't cause people to have fits when the meaning jumps from Scripture.
 
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BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
ah--i didn't realize that that's what you thought you were trying to do, sorry. This word, "dialogue," i'm not sure it means what you think it means, BoL.
A dialogue is a conversation.
Just stick to the topic instead of going off on tangents and you might be able to have an intelligent conversation.
 

bbyrd009

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BreadOfLife said:
A dialogue is a conversation.
Just stick to the topic instead of going off on tangents and you might be able to have an intelligent conversation.
ooh, and i guess The Queen Has Spoken, huh, like i need to worship you or something, just because you don't see that a tangent might illuminate a point? In order to have a conversation, you would first have to come down from On High there, buddy. Presently you are just Issuing Proclamations, with all due respect.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
ooh, and i guess The Queen Has Spoken, huh, like i need to worship you or something, just because you don't see that a tangent might illuminate a point? In order to have a conversation, you would first have to come down from On High there, buddy. Presently you are just Issuing Proclamations, with all due respect.
That's just it - none of your tangential rants illuminate anything.
They're simply off-topic diatribes that fade into gibberish. Just stick to the topic.
 

tom55

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bbyrd009 said:
ok, personally i would avoid this one until you have got a better conception of "kingdom" and "eternal," defined for yourself, but my answer in this venue climate is that the kingdom is right beside you, and God is outside of time, Einstein even proved that clocks moving at the speed of light are essentially stopped from our pov. But since that is like a cop out, i will also say that i don't mean to imply that there will not be a tomorrow, but that we are compelled by religion to dwell in tomorrow, when we are assured in other places that "the kingdom is very near you," and "on earth as it is in heaven."

So iow imo the Book can be read one way, or another, and "you do not know where you are going, or where you come from," so any understanding that leads you into believing that you do know where you are going--or know anything else, for that matter, as Scripture plainly states--should be suspect. Therefore it would be pointless for me to provide some other guess, but i will anyway, along the lines of something like "those who come, and inherit the kingdom prepared for them, which exists right now, very near to you, these are the ones who understand, and the others, who do not grasp this message, and seek to save their souls, will lose them. And it will 'eternally' be this way, iow this principle of the kingdom coming to earth is not going to change, that is what is happening, right now, and you can either manifest this, a la Joan of Arc or Gandhi, say, or not, but either way, you are going to die anyway, physically, so you might consider that "eternal punishment" to a God who is defined as Love might just be your everlasting remorse at having waited for the kingdom to come to you in some unknown afterlife--or even getting a mansion in the Sky, where no Wind blows--who knows. Get your vision up out of your navel, maybe, and Understand I AM.

Yes, the sun will come up tomorrow--yet tomorrow never comes, does it? You have not spent one second in tomorrow yet, and you never will. Samuel--accepted--assured Saul and his sons--rejected--that they would be there with him; "you and your sons will be here with me." All go to the same place. So the point might be to see that the Book will give you enough rope to hang yourself, if you are intent upon hanging yourself, so to speak. You can read water or wine; and the old wine is better, they say.
???? This makes no sense.

The sun will come up tomorrow yet tomorrow never comes????

Get your vision up out of your navel, maybe, and Understand I AM. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?????

<_< :blink: :wacko: :popcorn: :blink: :blink: :blink:
 

bbyrd009

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BreadOfLife said:
That's just it - none of your tangential rants illuminate anything.
They're simply off-topic diatribes that fade into gibberish. Just stick to the topic.
don't you see that you can only comment from your perspective, even though you presume to speak for others?

I am equally validated by telling you to "Just go into a closet and suck eggs," see? I am not your minion, for you to be ordering around; that is strictly you, worshipping yourself as God.

there is no shame in not understanding a post; maybe it was meant for someone else. One cannot dialogue with someone who has made up their minds, see.

please take this in the spirit intended, this is something we all deal with...or not, i guess. My dad died worshipping himself, as you are, convinced that he was somehow acceptably following Christ. It was not pleasant. Just sayin.
 

bbyrd009

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tom55 said:
???? This makes no sense.

The sun will come up tomorrow yet tomorrow never comes????

Get your vision up out of your navel, maybe, and Understand I AM. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?????

<_< :blink: :wacko: :popcorn: :blink: :blink: :blink:
the Book will tell you that you are not promised a tomorrow, and this should be considered in the light of our popular "kingdom, tomorrow" myths, possibly. There is a valid sense in which tomorrow never comes, yet we are often led to dwell or "live" in "tomorrow," or yesterday, by not being in the moment. Understand I AM is likely another way to phrase this, wherein your "future salvation" is rendered irrelevant in the face of the many issues that you might remedy in your domain, right now. Speaking generally, of course.

Now naturally, these will be discounted, and make little sense, to someone who has been programmed to live for a Christ that has been pointed out to them as coming back in some undetermined tomorrow; the two models are mutually exclusive. If you are the Body of Christ, then by definition Jesus is not bodily coming back to save you from your snakebit condition, oh worshippers of Nehushtan. Or apply the lesson of Nehushtan as you see fit, by all means, ok, you do not have to believe like i do. Seek your own salvation.
 

BreadOfLife

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bbyrd009 said:
don't you see that you can only comment from your perspective, even though you presume to speak for others?

I am equally validated by telling you to "Just go into a closet and suck eggs," see? I am not your minion, for you to be ordering around; that is strictly you, worshipping yourself as God.

there is no shame in not understanding a post; maybe it was meant for someone else. One cannot dialogue with someone who has made up their minds, see.

please take this in the spirit intended, this is something we all deal with...or not, i guess. My dad died worshipping himself, as you are, convinced that he was somehow acceptably following Christ. It was not pleasant. Just sayin.
And this entire post is yet another sad example of your gibberish and nonsensical ranting.
Try sticking to the TOPIC. It makes for a more interesting and edifying conversation.