Please explain this.

[JohnPaul]

We don't really know anymore JP.
It used to be considered a mental disorder back in the 50's and 60's...not sure when it changed to what it has become TODAY...
which seems to be a gender phenomenon.
What do I mean by this?
It does seem that some may actually choose this life-style.
It seems that children the age of 8 and 10 are mixed up as to their gender
because of all the publicity and TV shows that show this is OK.
I think we're going through a very confused period, and I fear it will only get worse.

What do you think?

I don’t think you can choose to be gay, something has to be wrong with you mentally, I cannot choose to be with another man, it is disgusting to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ladies, I would like to interject a thought here....We can discuss Christianity here with years of study to back us up...but I want to remind you of the people that Christ and the Apostles were talking to. No New Testament Bible, odds are good that Paul's intellectual details went over the heads of most of the Christians at the time. The urgency of the ministry was to save as many as possible. A very simple message would be the only way that could happen. I believe Christ gave a certain about of grace to this new message and those that heard it, if not he would have been working against Himself. The discussion from our time period about who was in and who was out and exactly what they were thinking is difficult to discern. The story of those that fell away could be a lot like that of the prodigal son. Just as today, the seeds fall on different soil...from there it is between them and God....and it may take a while. I do not write this as a correction but as something to think about.

OK GH,,,,here goes.

I can be pretty sure of what the Apostles taught because I read the Early Church Fathers, or the early theologians.

They were taught by an Apostle or by someone that knew the Apostle.
When I need a clarification,,,I like to go check what THEY believed.

For instance....the DID NOT believe in eternal security.

Do YOU think they knew more...or those of a few hundred years ago that came up with the eternal security concept that had NEVER existed in the church till the reformation?

I went thru the following link quickly and all seems OK to me.
I do want to say that most biblical scholars date the didache at about 90 AD.
(although there is debate).

You'll have to scroll down a bit...

What Early Church Fathers Said about Eternal Security - Todd Tomasella | SafeGuardYourSoul

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Right!
I never thought of your last sentence.
I have read some of the institutes....very little, but what I read there is just not the God that I know.

Even less of the Westminster Confession.
Will be doing that soon. I think that's pretty long too.
(like the Catechism of the Catholic church)

Calvin was a vicious man. At least 50-something (I never remember the exact total) people were executed for heresy, under his virtual dictatorship over the city of Geneva. Calvin's apologists say that it was the "political leadership" of Geneva who carried out the executions of "heretics and other miscreants" but it was Calvin who ordered them. Of note was the very slow burning at the stake of Michael Servetus (they deliberately used green wood). Servetus was a physician and former friend of Calvin who made the mistake of criticizing something that Calvin wrote. Servetus had some kind of odd theology--I forget what exactly. Calvin was reportedly so incensed by Servetus' criticism that he threatened to burn Servetus, if he ever showed his face in Geneva. Apparently, Servetus sought to make peace between himself and Calvin, and went to Geneva. There he was arrested by Geneva's officials and sent to the stake under the order of Calvin's henchman. Later, when questioned about the incident, Calvin said that if he had it to do over again, he would make sure they used seasoned (not green) firewood--as a mercy. Calvin also had a nine-year-old girl executed for slapping her mother.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don’t think you can choose to be gay, something has to be wrong with you mentally, I cannot choose to be with another man, it is disgusting to me.

That's because you're a NORMAL person!
Not everybody is. People are damaged...
mentally, emotionally. They don't have a center of gravity...they're blown by the wind...here and there.
Ephesians 4:14

You, and all of us, can be thankful that we know God and He keeps us from so much harm in this crazy world.

 

[JohnPaul]

Calvin was a vicious man. At least 50-something (I never remember the exact total) people were executed for heresy, under his virtual dictatorship over the city of Geneva. Calvin's apologists say that it was the "political leadership" of Geneva who carried out the executions of "heretics and other miscreants" but it was Calvin who ordered them. Of note was the very slow burning at the stake of Michael Servetus (they deliberately used green wood). Servetus was a physician and former friend of Calvin who made the mistake of criticizing something that Calvin wrote. Servetus had some kind of odd theology--I forget what exactly. Calvin was reportedly so incensed by Servetus' criticism that he threatened to burn Servetus, if he ever showed his face in Geneva. Apparently, Servetus sought to make peace between himself and Calvin, and went to Geneva. There he was arrested by Geneva's officials and sent to the stake under the order of Calvin's henchman. Later, when questioned about the incident, Calvin said that if he had it to do over again, he would make sure they used seasoned (not green) firewood--as a mercy. Calvin also had a nine-year-old girl executed for slapping her mother.

I’m only learning about this now, that is nuts!

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvin was a vicious man. At least 50-something (I never remember the exact total) people were executed for heresy, under his virtual dictatorship over the city of Geneva. Calvin's apologists say that it was the "political leadership" of Geneva who carried out the executions of "heretics and other miscreants" but it was Calvin who ordered them. Of note was the very slow burning at the stake of Michael Servetus (they deliberately used green wood). Servetus was a physician and former friend of Calvin who made the mistake of criticizing something that Calvin wrote. Servetus had some kind of odd theology--I forget what exactly. Calvin was reportedly so incensed by Servetus' criticism that he threatened to burn Servetus, if he ever showed his face in Geneva. Apparently, Servetus sought to make peace between himself and Calvin, and went to Geneva. There he was arrested by Geneva's officials and sent to the stake under the order of Calvin's henchman. Later, when questioned about the incident, Calvin said that if he had it to do over again, he would make sure they used seasoned (not green) firewood--as a mercy. Calvin also had a nine-year-old girl executed for slapping her mother.

I agree. He was not known for his cheerfulness and probably had some kind of mental or emotional problems.

I just don't understand why we look to men of the 1500's for information instead of those that came immediately after Jesus.

I like the men of old!
Up till about 325AD...and not beyond.
Have you ever read the Church Fathers?
There's a 10 volume set I'd love to have, but I can't
get it in English here.

 

[justbyfaith]

JBF,
The idea of entire sanctification in this life, as espoused by John Wesley, for example, has been abandoned even by holiness churches.

That is why we desperately need revival!

Your church has been burned to the ground, bro, the fire is basically even out now, they are abandoned hulks, shadows of their former selves,

Which only proves my point.
.
.
.

but if we expect to become perfect, we have a long fall coming eventually that might take our faith away...AND THAT is what the enemy wants.

Except that the scripture tells us it is possible to never fall...Hebrews 10:14, 2 Peter 1:10, Jude 1:24, 1 John 2:10, 1 John 2:17.

I'm a Christian. I do believe that the Nazarene church is a very pure church.
If you check, you'll find that they do not teach entire sanctification as Wesley taught.

I went to the Nazarene Church for quite a few years; and yes, they do teach the doctrine of entire sanctification.

You seem to be doing this on your own and you're not understanding some concepts.

You are being condescending...but I will retort that I also find that you do not understand some very basic concepts in the holy scriptures.

1 John 2:1 IF anyone sins...means that one CAN sin.

1 John 3:9 would tell us that that person is not born of God.

BTW, it's Holy Spirit.

It's Holy Ghost.

You claim there are no non-essentials ... so treat the apostate heretics as they deserve!

That wouldn't be Christ-like.

Also, I didn't claim there are no non-essentials, I said that we need to strive to find accuracy and unity even in the non-essentials.

I think He said that to the "Rich Young Ruler" because He understood that the man's wealth was an impediment to faith for him.

Jesus applied it across the board in Luke 14:33 (kjv).

Luk 14:33, So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

I'm certain that now you will go to another translation, heaping up for yourself a teacher in the translator of it, to tell you what your itching ears want to hear...

 

[JohnPaul]

That's because you're a NORMAL person!
Not everybody is. People are damaged...
mentally, emotionally. They don't have a center of gravity...they're blown by the wind...here and there.
Ephesians 4:14

You, and all of us, can be thankful that we know God and He keeps us from so much harm in this crazy world.

The ones who seek this lifestyle are mentally ill, the ones who confuse children ought to be put to death, they are vermin.

 

[GodsGrace]

I’m only learning about this now, that is nuts!

You're learning about John Calvin now?
If anyone ever denies what @Lady Crosstalk just posted,,,and they might,
the fact that cannot be disputed is that Calvin could have saved Servetus by presenting some documents to the court, instead he withheld it purposefully.

I say this because there's some doubt as to how responsible he was for the death of Servetus....no matter how much responsibility one wants to assign to Calvin,,,he WAS responsible for the man's death...and many others.

How to trust someone like him?

 

[JohnPaul]

You're learning about John Calvin now?
If anyone ever denies what @Lady Crosstalk just posted,,,and they might,
the fact that cannot be disputed is that Calvin could have saved Servetus by presenting some documents to the court, instead he withheld it purposefully.

I say this because there's some doubt as to how responsible he was for the death of Servetus....no matter how much responsibility one wants to assign to Calvin,,,he WAS responsible for the man's death...and many others.

How to trust someone like him?

I’ve heard of Calvin, but not that he was nuts.

 

[Grailhunter]

OK GH,,,,here goes.

I can be pretty sure of what the Apostles taught because I read the Early Church Fathers, or the early theologians.

They were taught by an Apostle or by someone that knew the Apostle.
When I need a clarification,,,I like to go check what THEY believed.

For instance....the DID NOT believe in eternal security.

Do YOU think they knew more...or those of a few hundred years ago that came up with the eternal security concept that had NEVER existed in the church till the reformation?

I went thru the following link quickly and all seems OK to me.
I do want to say that most biblical scholars date the didache at about 90 AD.
(although there is debate).

You'll have to scroll down a bit...

What Early Church Fathers Said about Eternal Security - Todd Tomasella | SafeGuardYourSoul

Are you shooting from the hip there lol...Not talking about the quality of the Apostle's teaching....I am talking about the people that stood in front of Christ and the early ministries of the Apostles...even before Paul. The message given to them was very simple and still they could be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

The ones who seek this lifestyle are mentally ill, the ones who confuse children ought to be put to death, they are vermin.

Children are being confused.
Just look at the programs on TV.
Adults RUIN children...and it can't be stopped.
When I was a young person I was involved in TRYING to stop certain things...it doesn't matter what.

I realized way back then that it would make no difference. And it didn't.
This takes hope away from me that things will get better...I don't think they will.
I fear for where we're headed:
Cloning
Euthanasea
Meddling with DNA of veggies and animals
Womb factories ..women having babies for other women
Govt control

Where will it all end?
Before we were busy with wars.
Now it's more peaceful so we have the time to come up with this stuff....

 

[GodsGrace]

I’ve heard of Calvin, but not that he was nuts.

Well, then, it's a good thing you don't know what he taught!
He taught a God that you would not recognize.

 

[JohnPaul]

Children are being confused.
Just look at the programs on TV.
Adults RUIN children...and it can't be stopped.
When I was a young person I was involved in TRYING to stop certain things...it doesn't matter what.

I realized way back then that it would make no difference. And it didn't.
This takes hope away from me that things will get better...I don't think they will.
I fear for where we're headed:
Cloning
Euthanasea
Meddling with DNA of veggies and animals
Womb factories ..women having babies for other women
Govt control

Where will it all end?
Before we were busy with wars.
Now it's more peaceful so we have the time to come up with this stuff....

The world has turned evil, God will put an end to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you shooting from the hip there lol...Not talking about the quality of the Apostle's teaching....I am talking about the people that stood in front of Christ and the early ministries of the Apostles...even before Paul. The message given to them was very simple and still they could be saved.

Of course!
We were discussing eternal security.
If someone is not sure what Jesus taught about it, or Paul,
the best thing to do is to find out what the Early church taugth about it.

 

[JohnPaul]

Well, then, it's a good thing you don't know what he taught!
He taught a God that you would not recognize.

I’ve heard there are Calvinists, people who follow his teachings.

 

[GodsGrace]

The world has turned evil, God will put an end to it.

It sure feels like it would be time.

 

[Grailhunter]

Of course!
We were discussing eternal security.
If someone is not sure what Jesus taught about it, or Paul,
the best thing to do is to find out what the Early church taugth about it.

Ok we can discuss it later.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Could we talk about what it means to receive the Holy Spirit?
I don't speak in tongues, although I know some that do.
When I came to know God, it was like lightening...but it never became more than that in the sense that I felt a second "baptism".

IOW, when one becomes born again and is born from above...
what more could there be?
To me speaking in tongues is a gift (in case we get into it)...NOT proof of reception of the Holy Spirit.

I think every born again believer is indwelt...
YOU do not apprently...I'm referring to this difference above.
If you care to address it.

I think the Holy Spirit baptism IS the born-again experience. The gift of tongues is just one evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul lists eight in 1 Corinthians chapter 12. There are, according to some, as many as 19 different spiritual gifts. I have read that, in the early Church, the laying on of hands by the elders, was a normal part of the baptism of a believer. The Apostle Paul makes reference to it in 1 Timothy 4:14 and says that Timothy received a spiritual gift at that time. Paul said that he spoke in tongues but that not all did. In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul takes up the subject of spiritual gifts again. He said that he would rather have five understandable words to help others than 10,000 words in an unknown language (verse 19). He commends the gift of prophecy and we know from Revelation 19:10 that "the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus." I have seen some pastors who seem to have the gift of prophecy.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Yes, and the ones that refrain from homosexual activity and pray for help and forgiveness there is an exception. Homosexuality is a mental disorder is it not?

I would say that it is a spiritual illness. Jesus seemed to note only two categories of illness--spiritual and physical. There are an enormous number of gay men who admit to suffering sexual abuse as children and pre-adolescent boys. The same is apparently true of lesbians.