Pleniary indulgances : they're baaack!

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michaelvpardo

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According to an article written by Reverand Thomas Nasta, the National Chaplain of the First Catholic Slovak Union of the United States and Canada, the RC church will be offering indulgences to remove part of or all temporal punishment for sin, courtesy of Pope Benedict and his proclamaition of the year of faith. This article is from the front page of the Catholic Fraternal Bi-Weekly "Jednota" dated Wednesday, January 16, 2013, Volume 122 and number 5876. I'm embarrassed to say that I recieve this bi-wweekly paper, but in my own defense, I was put on the mailing list through well meaning relatives who also purchased a small insurance policy in my name which will hopefully pay for the dinners of those few that may eventually attend my funeral services. I do love my family, even though some believe in rather foolish things. How big is the "storehouse of grace?"
In the RC church's defense, there doesn't appear to be any purchase required for the indulgences, only a mandatory participation in some specialized services and other similar works.
I am amazed that the practice which helped fuel the "protestant reformation" is now being used by that church in an attempt to revive "faith." (seems like a bit of an oxymoron)
I generally try not to offend those Roman Catholics that participate in these forums, though I reject most of their doctrines not found in the pages of scripture, however reading of the issuance of indulgences is an offense to me, and certainly an offense to the Spirit of grace, Himself (though not unpardonable of itself.)
I've heard R.C.Sproul give an in depth explanation of the doctrine surrounding indulgances, but I never expected the RC Church to restore the use of them. What I still fail to understand is how anyone could consider this anything but a form of "works" rigthousness. How is grace still grace if it is dispensed in return for performance?
 

Angelina

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Hmmm, R.C. Sproul holds a pretty hard line where it comes to the RC.


I am amazed that the practice which helped fuel the "protestant reformation" is now being used by that church in an attempt to revive "faith." (seems like a bit of an oxymoron)
Wow! :huh:
 

aspen

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indulgences do not offend me. simony for indulgences was wrong in the high middle ages and Luther was right to protest the practice.
 

Axehead

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If I can only get one of the Federal Reserves money printing machines then I'll be set.

Andyy is right, they never went away. Where people have no assurance of salvation, indulgences are a must.
 

Foreigner

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It is still a mystery as to why man thinks they can make these determinations and promise specific outcomes.
God is not bound by man-made decisions on these matters, only God is able to see what truly is in the heart of the sinner, and God's justice is perfect.
The danger here is that the sinner is given a false sense of security in what is going to happen, and that is tragic.
 

Rex

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The Vatican never retracts its papal bulls, it could resort back to its old self tomorrow.
Meaning it could again "by preexisting decrees" justify killing, torchering and pilfering mens lives based on unreformed papal bulls.
 

Selene

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Rex said:
The Vatican never retracts its papal bulls, it could resort back to its old self tomorrow.
Meaning it could again "by preexisting decrees" justify killing, torchering and pilfering mens lives based on unreformed papal bulls.
The teachings of the Church never allowed or justified murder. Just as indulgences never went away, the teachings of the Church have NEVER changed. It has always remained the same. Catholics doing bad things on their own is their own doing. I'm sure you also have people in your own church who also commit sinful things??
 

Rex

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Selene said:
The teachings of the Church never allowed or justified murder. Just as indulgences never went away, the teachings of the Church have NEVER changed. It has always remained the same. Catholics doing bad things on their own is their own doing. I'm sure you also have people in your own church who also commit sinful things??
http://www.agnesbakerpilgrim.org/Page.asp?PID=96

After the return of Columbus, in 1493 Pope Alexander VI issued a declaration
sanctifying the conquest of people who were non-Christian and therefore
“barbarous,” unworthy to own the land where they had been living for
thousands of years. Known as the
“Inter Caetera bull,” this document inspired England’s King Henry VII
to issue his own royal charter of “Discovery” in 1496, and set the
precedent for the domination of indigenous people worldwide under the
vast empires of European nations who could now claim that their theft of
land from native inhabitants was the will of God.


This
papal doctrine has never been withdrawn, so in 1984, the indigenous
human rights organization Tonatierra called for the Pope to revoke it. In 1992, the Indigenous Law Institute in Eugene, Oregon, began a global campaign, and wrote an open letter to Pope John Paul II. By now, indigenous peoples from all over the world are endorsing the revocation of this insulting doctrine. Below
is the text of a resolution from The International Council of 13
Indigenous Grandmothers, and following that, a letter recently written
to a representative of the Vatican.
 

Foreigner

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Selene said:
The teachings of the Church never allowed or justified murder.
-- And what was the Papal-sanctioned Inquisition? The Middle Ages version of the Carnival Cruise Line?
 

Selene

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Foreigner said:
-- And what was the Papal-sanctioned Inquisition? The Middle Ages version of the Carnival Cruise Line?
The following was posted by me in another forum board, so I will post it here as well:


In order to understand the Spanish Inquisition, we must first look at its predecessor, the medieval Inquisition. For medieval people, religion was not something one just did at church. It was their science, their philosophy, their politics, their identity, and their hope for salvation. It was not a personal preference but an abiding and universal truth. Medieval Europeans were not alone in this view. It was shared by numerous cultures around the world.

Secular and ecclesiastical leaders in medieval Europe approached heresy in different ways. Roman law equated heresy with treason. Why? Because kingship was God-given, thus making heresy an inherent challenge to royal authority. Heretics divided people, causing unrest and rebellion. Therefore, Kings had good reason to find and destroy heretics wherever they found them.

One of the most enduring myths of the Inquisition is that it was a tool of oppression imposed on unwilling Europeans by a power-hungry Church. Nothing could be more wrong. When the people of a village rounded up a suspected heretic and brought him before the local lord, how was he to be judged? How could an illiterate layman determine if the accused's beliefs were heretical or not? And how were witnesses to be heard and examined?

The medieval Inquisition began in 1184 when Pope Lucius III sent a list of heresies to Europe's bishops and commanded them to take an active role in determining whether those accused of heresy were, in fact, guilty. Rather than relying on secular courts, local lords, or just mobs, bishops were to see to it that accused heretics in their dioceses were examined by knowledgeable churchmen using Roman laws of evidence. In other words, they were to "inquire" — thus, the term "inquisition."

From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep that had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring those sheep back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls.

Most people accused of heresy by the medieval Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentence suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely departed out of hostility to the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to the secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense.

By the 14th century, the Inquisition represented the best legal practices available. Inquisition officials were university-trained specialists in law and theology. The procedures were similar to those used in secular inquisitions (we call them "inquests" today, but it's the same word). The power of kings rose dramatically in the late Middle Ages. Secular rulers strongly supported the Inquisition because they saw it as an efficient way to ensure the religious health of their kingdoms. If anything, kings faulted the Inquisition for being too lenient on heretics. As in other areas of ecclesiastical control, secular authorities in the late Middle Ages began to take over the Inquisition, removing it from papal oversight. In France, for example, royal officials assisted by legal scholars at the University of Paris assumed control of the French Inquisition. Kings justified this on the belief that they knew better than the faraway pope how best to deal with heresy in their own kingdoms.

These dynamics would help to form the Spanish Inquisition — but there were others as well. Spain was different from the rest of Europe. Conquered by Muslims in the eighth century, Spain had been a place of near constant warfare. Because borders between Muslim and Christian kingdoms shifted rapidly over the centuries, it was in most rulers' interest to practice a fair degree of tolerance for other religions. The ability of Muslims, Christians, and Jews to live together, called convivencia by the Spanish, was a rarity in the Middle Ages. Spain was the most diverse and tolerant place in medieval Europe. England expelled all of its Jews in 1290. France did the same in 1306. Yet in Spain Jews thrived at every level of society.

However, waves of anti-Semitism that swept across medieval Europe would eventually find their way into Spain. During the summer of 1391, urban mobs in Barcelona and other towns poured into Jewish quarters, rounded up Jews, and gave them a choice of baptism or death. Most took baptism. The king of Aragon, who had done his best to stop the attacks, later reminded his subjects of well-established Church doctrine on the matter of forced baptisms — they don't count. He decreed that any Jews who accepted baptism to avoid death could return to their religion.

But most of these new converts, or conversos, decided to remain Catholic. Why? Because some believed that apostasy made them unfit to be Jewish. Others worried that returning to Judaism would leave them vulnerable to future attacks. Still others saw their baptism as a way to avoid the increasing number of restrictions and taxes imposed on Jews. As time passed, the conversos settled into their new religion, becoming just as pious as other Catholics. Their children were baptized at birth and raised as Catholics. But they remained in a cultural netherworld. Most conversos still spoke, dressed, and ate like Jews. Many continued to live in Jewish quarters so as to be near family members.

In 1414, a debate was held in Tortosa between Christian and Jewish leaders. Pope Benedict XIII himself attended the debate. On the Christian side was the papal physician, Jeronimo de Santa Fe, who had recently converted from Judaism. The debate brought about a wave of new voluntary conversions. In Aragon alone, 3,000 Jews received baptism. All of this caused a good deal of tension between those who remained Jewish and those who became Catholic.


The vast majority of conversos were good Catholics who simply took pride in their Jewish heritage. Surprisingly, many modern authors — indeed, many Jewish authors — have embraced these anti-Semitic fantasies. It is common today to hear that the conversos really were secret Jews, struggling to keep their faith hidden under the tyranny of Catholicism. Even the American Heritage Dictionary describes "converso" as "a Spanish or Portuguese Jew who converted outwardly to Christianity in the late Middle Ages so as to avoid persecution or expulsion, though often continuing to practice Judaism in secret." This is simply false.

But the constant accusations convinced King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Jews pretending to be Christians should at least be investigated. Responding to their request, Pope Sixtus IV issued a bull on November 1, 1478, allowing the crown to form an inquisitorial tribunal consisting of two or three priests over the age of 40. As was now the custom, the monarchs would have complete authority over the inquisitors and the inquisition. Ferdinand, who had many Jews and con-versos in his court, was not at first overly enthusiastic about the whole thing. Two years elapsed before he finally appointed two men. Thus began the Spanish Inquisition.


In this early stage of the Spanish Inquisition, the tribunals were used as a weapon against the converso. Since the Inquisition's sole purpose was to investigate conversos, the Old Christians had nothing to fear from it. Their fidelity to the Catholic faith was not under investigation. As for the Jews, they were immune to the Inquisition. Remember, the purpose of an inquisition was to find and correct the lost sheep of Christ's flock. It had no jurisdiction over other flocks. Those who get their history from Mel Brooks's History of the World, Part I will perhaps be surprised to learn that all of those Jews enduring various tortures in the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition are nothing more than a product of Brooks's fertile imagination. Spain's Jews had nothing to fear from the Spanish Inquisition.

In the early years, there was plenty of abuse and confusion. Most accused conversos were acquitted, but not all. Well-publicized burnings — often because of blatantly false testimony — frightened other conversos. Those with enemies often fled town before they could be denounced. Everywhere they looked, the inquisitors found more accusers. As the Inquisition expanded into Aragon, the hysteria levels reached new heights. Pope Sixtus IV attempted to put a stop to it. On April 18, 1482, he wrote to the bishops of Spain:

In Aragon, Valencia, Mallorca, and Catalonia the Inquisition has for some time been moved not by zeal for the faith and the salvation of souls but by lust for wealth. Many true and faithful Christians, on the testimony of enemies, rivals, slaves, and other lower and even less proper persons, have without any legitimate proof been thrust into secular prisons, tortured and condemned as relapsed heretics, deprived of their goods and property and handed over to the secular arm to be executed, to the peril of souls, setting a pernicious example, and causing disgust to many.

Sixtus ordered the bishops to take a direct role in all future tribunals. They were to ensure that the Church's well-established norms of justice were respected. The accused were to have legal counsel and the right to appeal their case to Rome.

In the Middle Ages, the pope's commands would have been obeyed. But those days were gone. King Ferdinand was outraged when he heard of the letter. He wrote to Sixtus, openly suggesting that the pope had been bribed with converso gold.

Things have been told me, Holy Father, which, if true, would seem to merit the greatest astonishment . . . To these rumors, however, we have given no credence because they seem to be things which would in no way have been conceded by Your Holiness who has a duty to the Inquisition. But if by chance concessions have been made through the persistent and cunning persuasion of theconversos, I intend never to let them take effect. Take care therefore not to let the matter go further, and to revoke any concessions and entrust us with the care of this question.

That was the end of the papacy's role in the Spanish Inquisition. In 1484 Pope Innocent VIII attempted to allow appeals to Rome against the Inquisition, but Ferdinand in December 1484 and again in 1509 decreed death and confiscation for anyone trying to make use of such procedures without royal permission. With this, the Inquisition became the only institution that held authority across all the realms of the Spanish monarchy, and, in all of them, a useful mechanism at the service of the crown.

There are, however, things to be learned from the Spanish Inquisition. The Church herself, as evidenced in the Catechism, does not defend the regrettable practices of the Inquisition:
In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors (no. 2298).


Furthermore, the Church does not proclaim that individuals in the Church, merely by being members of the Body of Christ, are infallibly Christ-like in all their actions. Rather,
“the Church . . . clasping sinners to her bosom, at once holy and always in need of purification, follows constantly the path of penance and renewal.” All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners. In everyone, the weeds of sin will still be mixed with the good wheat of the Gospel until the end of time (Catechism, no. 827, quoting Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, no. 8).


With all that said, we must distinguish between the facts of the Inquisition and the fiction. As recent scholarship has shown, both Protestants and secularists, from the 16th century to the present, have wildly exaggerated the evils of the Inquisition in order to further their own ends, creating straw demons of inquisitors and popes alike. Sadly, these errors have been repeated so often that they have become “facts.”

Although such exaggerations have made “facts” from fiction, there is some truth about abuses that Catholics must admit. Unrepentant men found guilty of heresy were handed over to the State for punishment, even though Church authorities did not always agree with the State’s punishments. We must realize that in handing over the condemned heretic to the secular power, the Church knowingly was handing over the condemned for punishments ranging from imprisonment to burning at the stake. Furthermore, even with all the procedural precautions, there were inquisitors who did not follow the laws of the Church and all too readily handed over a significant number of “heretics” to be burned alive. However, anti-Catholic pamphleteers and historians have grossly exaggerated the numbers, asserting that millions died at the stake. Though the actual numbers are far less (3,000-5,000), these deaths are still regrettable.

It is also true, sadly enough, that the Church, following the judicial customs of the day, allowed for torture as a part of the judicial procedure. The approval of torture went all the way to the top, as Pope Innocent IV’s bull Ad exstirpanda (1252) attests. However, the use of torture during judicial inquiry was not, contrary to her many detractors, the invention of the Church.

Just prior to the time of the Inquisition, Roman law had begun to displace the local judicial customs of western Europe. Roman law had allowed judicial torture in some circumstances. Under the medieval understanding of law, the accused in a capital crime could only be convicted if there were full proof of his guilt. This entailed either the testimony of two witnesses, being caught in the act, or personal confession. If the first two were lacking, and everything else pointed to the guilt of the accused, torture was used to extract his confession. To be considered a valid confession, the accused had to confess freely the next day.

In regard to the use of torture as well as capital punishment, the Church did not invent the practice, but regulated and codified these existing civil, judicial practices. In addition, it is important that the overwhelming effect and goal of the Church was to soften the punitive harshness of the secular powers, and correct the abuses of individual inquisitors who were arbitrary and cruel.
 

Selene

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Axehead said:
I tried, but could not bring myself to finish reading your post.

Then why even respond with, "The ends justifies the means?" if you haven't read it. It defeats the whole purpose.
 

HammerStone

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Let's try and steer this back on track.

There are a number of Protestant sects that persecuted as well during the Reformation; if we go down that road we'll do that in another thread. Thanks.
 

michaelvpardo

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Selene said:
The following was posted by me in another forum board, so I will post it here as well:


In order to understand the Spanish Inquisition, we must first look at its predecessor, the medieval Inquisition. For medieval people, religion was not something one just did at church. It was their science, their philosophy, their politics, their identity, and their hope for salvation. It was not a personal preference but an abiding and universal truth. Medieval Europeans were not alone in this view. It was shared by numerous cultures around the world.

Secular and ecclesiastical leaders in medieval Europe approached heresy in different ways. Roman law equated heresy with treason. Why? Because kingship was God-given, thus making heresy an inherent challenge to royal authority. Heretics divided people, causing unrest and rebellion. Therefore, Kings had good reason to find and destroy heretics wherever they found them.

One of the most enduring myths of the Inquisition is that it was a tool of oppression imposed on unwilling Europeans by a power-hungry Church. Nothing could be more wrong. When the people of a village rounded up a suspected heretic and brought him before the local lord, how was he to be judged? How could an illiterate layman determine if the accused's beliefs were heretical or not? And how were witnesses to be heard and examined?

The medieval Inquisition began in 1184 when Pope Lucius III sent a list of heresies to Europe's bishops and commanded them to take an active role in determining whether those accused of heresy were, in fact, guilty. Rather than relying on secular courts, local lords, or just mobs, bishops were to see to it that accused heretics in their dioceses were examined by knowledgeable churchmen using Roman laws of evidence. In other words, they were to "inquire" — thus, the term "inquisition."

From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep that had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring those sheep back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls.

Most people accused of heresy by the medieval Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentence suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely departed out of hostility to the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to the secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense.

By the 14th century, the Inquisition represented the best legal practices available. Inquisition officials were university-trained specialists in law and theology. The procedures were similar to those used in secular inquisitions (we call them "inquests" today, but it's the same word). The power of kings rose dramatically in the late Middle Ages. Secular rulers strongly supported the Inquisition because they saw it as an efficient way to ensure the religious health of their kingdoms. If anything, kings faulted the Inquisition for being too lenient on heretics. As in other areas of ecclesiastical control, secular authorities in the late Middle Ages began to take over the Inquisition, removing it from papal oversight. In France, for example, royal officials assisted by legal scholars at the University of Paris assumed control of the French Inquisition. Kings justified this on the belief that they knew better than the faraway pope how best to deal with heresy in their own kingdoms.

These dynamics would help to form the Spanish Inquisition — but there were others as well. Spain was different from the rest of Europe. Conquered by Muslims in the eighth century, Spain had been a place of near constant warfare. Because borders between Muslim and Christian kingdoms shifted rapidly over the centuries, it was in most rulers' interest to practice a fair degree of tolerance for other religions. The ability of Muslims, Christians, and Jews to live together, called convivencia by the Spanish, was a rarity in the Middle Ages. Spain was the most diverse and tolerant place in medieval Europe. England expelled all of its Jews in 1290. France did the same in 1306. Yet in Spain Jews thrived at every level of society.

However, waves of anti-Semitism that swept across medieval Europe would eventually find their way into Spain. During the summer of 1391, urban mobs in Barcelona and other towns poured into Jewish quarters, rounded up Jews, and gave them a choice of baptism or death. Most took baptism. The king of Aragon, who had done his best to stop the attacks, later reminded his subjects of well-established Church doctrine on the matter of forced baptisms — they don't count. He decreed that any Jews who accepted baptism to avoid death could return to their religion.

But most of these new converts, or conversos, decided to remain Catholic. Why? Because some believed that apostasy made them unfit to be Jewish. Others worried that returning to Judaism would leave them vulnerable to future attacks. Still others saw their baptism as a way to avoid the increasing number of restrictions and taxes imposed on Jews. As time passed, the conversos settled into their new religion, becoming just as pious as other Catholics. Their children were baptized at birth and raised as Catholics. But they remained in a cultural netherworld. Most conversos still spoke, dressed, and ate like Jews. Many continued to live in Jewish quarters so as to be near family members.

In 1414, a debate was held in Tortosa between Christian and Jewish leaders. Pope Benedict XIII himself attended the debate. On the Christian side was the papal physician, Jeronimo de Santa Fe, who had recently converted from Judaism. The debate brought about a wave of new voluntary conversions. In Aragon alone, 3,000 Jews received baptism. All of this caused a good deal of tension between those who remained Jewish and those who became Catholic.


The vast majority of conversos were good Catholics who simply took pride in their Jewish heritage. Surprisingly, many modern authors — indeed, many Jewish authors — have embraced these anti-Semitic fantasies. It is common today to hear that the conversos really were secret Jews, struggling to keep their faith hidden under the tyranny of Catholicism. Even the American Heritage Dictionary describes "converso" as "a Spanish or Portuguese Jew who converted outwardly to Christianity in the late Middle Ages so as to avoid persecution or expulsion, though often continuing to practice Judaism in secret." This is simply false.

But the constant accusations convinced King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Jews pretending to be Christians should at least be investigated. Responding to their request, Pope Sixtus IV issued a bull on November 1, 1478, allowing the crown to form an inquisitorial tribunal consisting of two or three priests over the age of 40. As was now the custom, the monarchs would have complete authority over the inquisitors and the inquisition. Ferdinand, who had many Jews and con-versos in his court, was not at first overly enthusiastic about the whole thing. Two years elapsed before he finally appointed two men. Thus began the Spanish Inquisition.


In this early stage of the Spanish Inquisition, the tribunals were used as a weapon against the converso. Since the Inquisition's sole purpose was to investigate conversos, the Old Christians had nothing to fear from it. Their fidelity to the Catholic faith was not under investigation. As for the Jews, they were immune to the Inquisition. Remember, the purpose of an inquisition was to find and correct the lost sheep of Christ's flock. It had no jurisdiction over other flocks. Those who get their history from Mel Brooks's History of the World, Part I will perhaps be surprised to learn that all of those Jews enduring various tortures in the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition are nothing more than a product of Brooks's fertile imagination. Spain's Jews had nothing to fear from the Spanish Inquisition.

In the early years, there was plenty of abuse and confusion. Most accused conversos were acquitted, but not all. Well-publicized burnings — often because of blatantly false testimony — frightened other conversos. Those with enemies often fled town before they could be denounced. Everywhere they looked, the inquisitors found more accusers. As the Inquisition expanded into Aragon, the hysteria levels reached new heights. Pope Sixtus IV attempted to put a stop to it. On April 18, 1482, he wrote to the bishops of Spain:


In Aragon, Valencia, Mallorca, and Catalonia the Inquisition has for some time been moved not by zeal for the faith and the salvation of souls but by lust for wealth. Many true and faithful Christians, on the testimony of enemies, rivals, slaves, and other lower and even less proper persons, have without any legitimate proof been thrust into secular prisons, tortured and condemned as relapsed heretics, deprived of their goods and property and handed over to the secular arm to be executed, to the peril of souls, setting a pernicious example, and causing disgust to many.
Sixtus ordered the bishops to take a direct role in all future tribunals. They were to ensure that the Church's well-established norms of justice were respected. The accused were to have legal counsel and the right to appeal their case to Rome.

In the Middle Ages, the pope's commands would have been obeyed. But those days were gone. King Ferdinand was outraged when he heard of the letter. He wrote to Sixtus, openly suggesting that the pope had been bribed with converso gold.

>
Things have been told me, Holy Father, which, if true, would seem to merit the greatest astonishment . . . To these rumors, however, we have given no credence because they seem to be things which would in no way have been conceded by Your Holiness who has a duty to the Inquisition. But if by chance concessions have been made through the persistent and cunning persuasion of theconversos, I intend never to let them take effect. Take care therefore not to let the matter go further, and to revoke any concessions and entrust us with the care of this question.

That was the end of the papacy's role in the Spanish Inquisition. In 1484 Pope Innocent VIII attempted to allow appeals to Rome against the Inquisition, but Ferdinand in December 1484 and again in 1509 decreed death and confiscation for anyone trying to make use of such procedures without royal permission. With this, the Inquisition became the only institution that held authority across all the realms of the Spanish monarchy, and, in all of them, a useful mechanism at the service of the crown.

There are, however, things to be learned from the Spanish Inquisition. The Church herself, as evidenced in the Catechism, does not defend the regrettable practices of the Inquisition:
In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors (no. 2298).


Furthermore, the Church does not proclaim that individuals in the Church, merely by being members of the Body of Christ, are infallibly Christ-like in all their actions. Rather,
“the Church . . . clasping sinners to her bosom, at once holy and always in need of purification, follows constantly the path of penance and renewal.” All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners. In everyone, the weeds of sin will still be mixed with the good wheat of the Gospel until the end of time (Catechism, no. 827, quoting Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, no. 8).


With all that said, we must distinguish between the facts of the Inquisition and the fiction. As recent scholarship has shown, both Protestants and secularists, from the 16th century to the present, have wildly exaggerated the evils of the Inquisition in order to further their own ends, creating straw demons of inquisitors and popes alike. Sadly, these errors have been repeated so often that they have become “facts.”

Although such exaggerations have made “facts” from fiction, there is some truth about abuses that Catholics must admit. Unrepentant men found guilty of heresy were handed over to the State for punishment, even though Church authorities did not always agree with the State’s punishments. We must realize that in handing over the condemned heretic to the secular power, the Church knowingly was handing over the condemned for punishments ranging from imprisonment to burning at the stake. Furthermore, even with all the procedural precautions, there were inquisitors who did not follow the laws of the Church and all too readily handed over a significant number of “heretics” to be burned alive. However, anti-Catholic pamphleteers and historians have grossly exaggerated the numbers, asserting that millions died at the stake. Though the actual numbers are far less (3,000-5,000), these deaths are still regrettable.

It is also true, sadly enough, that the Church, following the judicial customs of the day, allowed for torture as a part of the judicial procedure. The approval of torture went all the way to the top, as Pope Innocent IV’s bull Ad exstirpanda (1252) attests. However, the use of torture during judicial inquiry was not, contrary to her many detractors, the invention of the Church.

Just prior to the time of the Inquisition, Roman law had begun to displace the local judicial customs of western Europe. Roman law had allowed judicial torture in some circumstances. Under the medieval understanding of law, the accused in a capital crime could only be convicted if there were full proof of his guilt. This entailed either the testimony of two witnesses, being caught in the act, or personal confession. If the first two were lacking, and everything else pointed to the guilt of the accused, torture was used to extract his confession. To be considered a valid confession, the accused had to confess freely the next day.

In regard to the use of torture as well as capital punishment, the Church did not invent the practice, but regulated and codified these existing civil, judicial practices. In addition, it is important that the overwhelming effect and goal of the Church was to soften the punitive harshness of the secular powers, and correct the abuses of individual inquisitors who were arbitrary and cruel.


While your post seems factual, at the time of the inquisition, the church of Rome was no simple religious institution, but wielded temporal power over the remnants of the old Roman empire: The church crowned kings. The invasion of the Ottoman turks into Europe polarized the continent into religious factions. And the invasion of Spain by the Moors of north Africa was more of the same. The inquisition in Spain was a weapon of the Spanish royalty in their war against the Moors (known as the reconquista) which officially ended in 1492 with the expulsion of "the jews". While the war was fought for about 900 years and was primarily waged to expell the Moors from the territory now known as Andalusia, the native jews of Spain were also considered a threat to the power of the monarchy. The colonization of the Americas wasn't only about grabbing the land of heathens, but it also was about encouraging "undesirables" to leave europe. Its convenient to divide the actions of the church from the actions of the governments, but both serve the social purposes of organizing the people of the land into managable groups. Both provide guidance and purpose to the extent that men are willing to accept their authority. Both derive their authority from God (according to scripture), but derive their substance from the local population. The "seperation of church and state" is a contrivance of men designed to divide powers between two authorities which are both in reality subject to One. In the US, the intent of the authors of our constitution was to further divide "the authority" over the public between three branches of government, to create more distance between men and absolute power. I'm not overly familiar with church heiarchy in the Roman Catholic faith, but the fact that there is a heirachy and a retained priesthood demonstrates that the RC church also has a structure designed to distance men from their creator. Jesus came to tear down "the wall of seperation," not only that which exists between peoples, but primarily that seperation between God and man that was the consequence of sin. In the sacrifice of His flesh and blood upon the cross, Jesus satisfied God's righteous requirement that sin be judged, and He satisfied it against Himself in the person of His Son, in fulfillment of His covenant oathes. Now since God loves us enough to give Himself in the person of His Son, to die in our place, in our behalf, and to remove that seperation between men and God, do you think that He intended the institutionalization of the church with its heirachy and levels of seperation between Himself and men? Heirarchy and ordered structure are the norm in this world and were ordained by God, but Jesus revealed a heirarchal structure in God's kingdom that is the opposite of that of the world. The least shall be called the greatest. The Master is the servant of all. Is this really what we see in this rebellious world? I heard one "priest" say that Pope Benedict was displaying great humility in resigning his office, in "stepping down" from such lofty position, but isn't it the Lord who humbles the man in his infirmaties? There is a day coming when all hypocracy will end and aristocracy will cease, but we haven't seen it yet.
 

michaelvpardo

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bosco said:
So... the Apostles sinned in creating the deacons?
The scripture defines deacons and elders as overseers and demands a degree of respect afforded to them, but they were also given as "under shepherds, not as overlords:
41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be greatly displeased with James and John. 42 But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 43 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. Mark 10:41-43
Like the Pharisees that preceeded them, church leadership has consistently found ways to circumvent the commandments of God to justify their own disobedience and carnality. The apostles didn't seek pre-eminence, nor did the deacons that they appointed, but they all served the body of Christ as stewards of God's grace, not as merchants of salvation. They didn't barter the gifts of God, nor use them as rewards for obedience, but rather were obedient to provide for the needs of the flock with that provision which they received from God, both physical and spiritual.