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POLL: Have all Old Testament prophecies about the earthly kingdoms of Israel and Judah been fulfille

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by HeRoseFromTheDead, Apr 9, 2013.

  1. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    My vote is YES.

    I am issuing a challenge to everyone to refute this belief by way of scripture. Please post only one verse, or pericope (section of continuous verses) per post, and give your explanation why it hasn't been fulfilled. Long posts with numerous verses are strongly discouraged. Also please read through the entire thread before posting because what you want to post may have already been addressed. No point in rehashing verses that have already been covered.

    I think I have been through every one, but I may have missed something.
     
  2. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    I voted no..

    Yahweh's Kingdom is still coming yet, is it not? And that's here on this earth.
    Also, there is promised land that far exceeds the boundaries of the traditional idea of the land of Israel, so in the Millennium they will get all that.

    Many have been fulfilled however.

    Israel, especially through the house of Joseph, did become many nations and inherited the birthright, thus the reason why we here in the USA are so blessed.

    Israel did become as the sand of the sea because they became many nations, but even in the end times this is promised again.

    Israel in part became a blessing to all the nations because they are preaching the gospel of Yeshua, but this is only for the firstfruits, and a foreshadowing. In the Millennium all nations will flow to it and the Knowledge of the Lord will be far and wide as other nations come to Jerusalem.

    Israel became a military superpower and controlled the gates of their enemies.

    and I can go on and on. Yes, some were fulfilled, but Israel is all throughout the redemptive plan of Yahweh expressed in the feasts, and only Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Pentecost occurred. We have yet to experience Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles and the Last Great Day (fore shadowing the Great White Throne Judgement) in which even more people will be saved.

    I made this as short as possible since the subject is lengthy and "one or two verses" don't answer what the entire bible is basically about.
     
  3. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    By all means, write what you need to. I was just referring to large listings of scripture in one post. Better to break those up into smaller posts.

    Yes the kingdom of GOD is coming, but weren't the kingdoms of Israel and Judah different than the kingdom of GOD? I agree wholeheartedly about the 3 festivals yet to be fulfilled, but won't those be during the kingdom of GOD, and not the other two earthly kingdoms?
     
  4. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    So, then I guess I don't understand what you're driving at. The physical and earthly are forerunners of the spiritual and although can be independent, they can also work in conjunction with each other.

    So... let's just start with one earthly promise to Abraham to simplify things:

    In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram,
    saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the
    great river, the river Euphrates: 19The Kenites, and the Kenizzites,
    and the Kadmonites, 20And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the
    Rephaims, 21And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the
    Girgashites, and the Jebusites.


    This is the map of what that is describing:

    [​IMG]

    when was this ever fulfilled historically?
     
  5. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Well I think that map is a little extreme in that it extends the territory to Turkey and the Black Sea, which I don't think was the case. I think Syria to the Euphrates River was as far north as it went.

    Nevertheless, the land was promised without conditions to Abraham and his seed, who we know from brother Paul is Christ. It was also promised to the children of Israel under conditions. And that promise was met:

    And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Joshua 21:43-45

    They also conquered all of the land from the Nile to the Euphrates River.

    David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates. 2 Samuel 8:3

    And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river [Euphrates] unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life. 1 Kings 4:21

    Jesus said the law and the prophets were until John; from that point forward the kingdom of GOD was proclaimed. Since the two are incompatible, I can hardly see how they can coexist.
     
  6. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Joshua 21:43-45 is a good point, I'll agree. But I am wondering if the context of "There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. " was simply that promised to take the land and established them nationally?

    If we look at the Abrahamic covenant, we also see that they were to become many nations, and also there was the promised kingly lineage of the tribe of Judah. Neither of these came to pass at that point in time. The point of that mention is that they did not possess as their nation that land map I shown at that time, either, but they did conquest that which they were told. So that begs the question, is the "good thing" ALL of the Abrahamic Covenant, or just that which Yahweh promised at that time?

    Now, as for the Law, I don't see how the Abrahamic promises are based on that, and indeed Paul stated the contrary in Galatians. The promises were by faith, in which the Law was the schoolmaster until Yeshua should come. Now again, we have to be careful of what he means by the "Law" as he was addressing the ceremonies and types and shadows depicting the work of Yeshua, not the moral law (e.g. 10 commandments) which are very much in effect even today.
     
  7. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    I don't think the children of Israel were to become many nations, but the promise to Abraham was that he'd be the father of many nations. That would include Israel, Judah and:

    The 12 nations of the sons of Ishmael

    • And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael Nebajoth, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadar, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles, twelve princes according to their nations. Genesis 25:13
    The nation of Edom

    • Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir. Esau is Edom. And these are the generations of Esau, the father of the Edomites in mount Seir. Genesis 36:8
    The seed of Abraham in every nation

    • With these things I saw and beheld a vast multitude which no one was able to number out of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues standing before the throne and before the lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches in their hands. And they cry a great voice saying, "Our God the salvation, the one sitting upon the throne and the lamb." Revelation 7:9
     
  8. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    You are kidding right ?

    There is plenty of unfulfilled OT prophecy pertaining to Israel

    Please tell me you are kidding
     
  9. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Not kidding. Can you provide a prophecy that demonstrates your claim?
     
  10. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
    Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
    Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
    Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
    Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
    Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
    Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
    Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
    Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.


    Isa 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
    Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
    Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    Tell the people in Israel, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Egypt etc that this is fulfilled.

    This site does not have enough bandwidth available to quote all the prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.
     
  11. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    You would be much better off to do your own studies

    I suspect that if someone here quoted ALL the unfulfilled prophecies pertaining to Israel .... you would try to wiggle out of it somehow

    But for the heck of it .... I will test you to see if you really want to learn or not .

    So I ask you ... ChristRoseFromTheDead, .... has Israel signed the 7 year peace agreement with the Antichrist yet ?
     
  12. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    I laughed out load when I read that. That scenario is a fantasy in your mind.
     
  13. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    Here are some more fantasy questions for you laughing man ...

    So I ask you ... ChristRoseFromTheDead, .... the regathering of the Jews to Palestine began in 1948 ..... have all the Jews in the world regathered .... or is the remainder to still come in the future ?

    So I ask you ... ChristRoseFromTheDead, .... Has Israel settled on all the Land God gave his servant Jacob .... or is that yet to come ?

    So I ask you ... ChristRoseFromTheDead, .... God has blinded the minds of the Israeli until the full number of Gentiles has come in ..... has God removed that blindness from Israel yet .... or is it still future ?
     
  14. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Why don't you try presenting your ideas through scripture one at a time instead of just throwing a load of indoctrination at me?


    Well obviously Isaiah 11:1-5 was fulfilled during Christ's life;
    Obviously Isaiah 6-9 didn't happen during Judah's existence (Israel was long gone), so those events pertain to a future fulfillment in the kingdom of GOD even though Isaiah didn't know that it had nothing to do with the Judah he was familiar with.
    Isaiah 11:10-13 began after the cross and has been occurring ever since. Keep in mind that Isaiah was prophesying before the Babylonian captivity and said that GOD would set his hand a second time (Egypt being the first) to gather his people scattered around the world.
    The events of Isaiah 2:1-3 began at the cross and are happening as we speak, and will progress into the coming kingdom of GOD where verse 4 kicks in.
     
  15. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    I threw in a little scripture for you on the last one below ...


    So I ask you ... ChristRoseFromTheDead .... Have the Northern Gog and Magog nations come down to invade the beautiful land yet .... or is that still future

    So I ask you ... ChristRoseFromTheDead .... has the 200 million man army from the east come to invade Palestine yet .... or is that still in the future ?

    So I ask you ... ChristRoseFromTheDead ..... has Jerusalem Israel been rebuilt again , never to be destroyed again ..... or is that still future ?

    ....... Jeremiah 31:38-40 ........... “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.”
     
  16. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Well obviously this can't be referring to any earthly Jerusalem. Jeremiah was looking ahead to the heavenly Jerusalem, even though he didn't know it.
     
  17. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    In order for that to be true the heavenly Jerusalem would require the following attributes .....

    ...... from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will
    stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah.
    40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the
    terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of
    the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord


    Obviously Jeremiah 31:38-40 is talking about the earthly city of Jerusalem
     
  18. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Do you seriously think that an earthly Jerusalem is going to have these attributes? The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown? These things don't exist anymore. Nor will they.

    Jeremiah is describing the whole expanse of the city according to his time. It's to be taken figuratively to indicate that the whole of Jerusalem will be built and not be destroyed again. That can only refer to heavenly Jerusalem. Your logic is self-defeating because the prophecy says that the city will be rebuilt and not destroyed again, but what happens when the New Jerusalem lands on top of it? It will be destroyed.
     
  19. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    God makes a new heaven and a new earth and then the heavenly Jerusalem comes down

    Revelation 21:1-2
    Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

    Jeremiah 31 is about the earthly Jerusalem that will not be destroyed again ..... we should consider that literal .... just like some day Damascus will be destroyed .... never to be rebuilt again ..... Babylon will be destroyed never to be rebuilt again ..... we take those statements as literal .... and they are all still future .

    Notice also in those portions of Jeremiah the regathering to the land (I will gather them from the ends of the earth)(1948) .... so that is a good indication that the message is not for Jeremiahs time.

    Also in Jeremiah 31 is the mention of the new covenant in the future .... and god will forgive Israel (vs 34 “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”) .... obviously not in Jeremiahs time.

    Those portions of Jeremiah do talk about present times for Jeremiah and then jump to the future , and then back again .... that is why sometimes it speaks about "in days to come" ..... these clues are important.

    Most of the major prophets have similar "nuggets" of favorable prophecy for future Israel .... BEFORE the tribulation commences.

    Distinguishing them from historical fulfilled prophecy is not an easy task.

    Absolutely for sure is the mention of the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 which absolutely for sure did not happen in Jeremiah's time ..... start there and read carefully

    Most of the world hates the fact that God has some favorable plans for stubborn disobedient Israel.

    I do not.




    =====================

    ps ..... also meant to mention that the new jerusalem from heaven includes it's own measurements which bear no similarity to Jeremiahs rebuilt jerusalem

    I will be away for a day or two .... and I am probably done with this topic..... I am surprised I even went this far ..... I learned long ago that people who dont want to learn , really dont want to learn , and I could care less.

    Believe whatever you want about Israel ...... but god will do what he wants and for his own reasons .... whether we like it or not
     
  20. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    Would you please show me some historical accounts of Christ slaying the wicked with the breath of His lips?

    And you think that Judah and Ephraim have been reunited as in...

    Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
    Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
    Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
    Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
    Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
    Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
    Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

    You really think the State of Israel fulfills this today?

    Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

    Show me David ruling over a reunited Israel. He is still in His grave awaiting his resurrection...

    Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    He will be in his grave and not resurrected until the second coming of Christ.
     
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