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POLL: Have all Old Testament prophecies about the earthly kingdoms of Israel and Judah been fulfille

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by HeRoseFromTheDead, Apr 9, 2013.

  1. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    No, but verse 4 was fulfilled during Jesus' ministry, and verses 8, 9 have been, and are being, fulfilled.
    Verses 6 and 7 are very hard to translate; there is no certainty as to what they really mean. Very possibly could be describing the day of the crucifixion.
    Verses 12 is future.

    Possibly verse 3 has a future fulfillment, or it could refer to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Hebrew syntax of Zechariah 14:3 can be interpreted as YHWH going forth to battle, not against, but IN the nations (בגוים), which is an accurate description of YHWH’s sending forth the consortium of Roman armies and auxiliaries from all nations to battle against Jerusalem on his behalf, as he had forewarned centuries earlier. This interpretation of Zechariah 14:3 fits the context established by the preceding two verses well, creates no temporal discontinuity amongst verses 1-3, and is supported by the fact that the same syntax occurs in Zechariah 14:14, where Judah is described in most bible translations as battling IN Jerusalem (בירושלם), not against it. Same preposition (IN) is used in both cases.
     
  2. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Looks like the nays have it! :lol:
     
  3. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    Joel 3 is still future and has many of the same parallels as Zechariah 14

    And then there is Jeremiah 30 which is clearly future , and clearly about Israel and Judah (4 These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah:)



    Here is what I recommend everybody do

    --- Try reading your bibles searching for evidence that Israel is still important to God and is still in Gods ultimate plans

    ---and see what you come up with.

    That is what I did years ago , and my findings are obvious , as can be seen on this thread.

    I confess to being dragged kicking and screaming (by the bible) to realize that Israel is still central to Gods ultimate plans.

    Previously , I had simply considered them unbelieving Jews who were hopelessly lost because they rejected Christ

    Israel does not deserve anything from God ..... but he will do it anyway .... and for his own reasons.

    We would also be wise to notice how God treats the people and nations according to how they treat (and mis-treat) Israel.

    Look at how disobedient Israel has been in the past .... and how the other nations and people bashed Israel .... yet God destroyed the enemies of Israel .... and has preserved Israel ....... even to this day.

    The WW2 holocaust was the greatest attempt by the devil and the nations to exterminate the Jews once and for all .... and that was only 60 years ago .... look how Israel has prospered since then ..... and they are just getting started .... it has all been prophesied

    Anti-semitism comes straight from the devil .... we should make sure we do not join with him.

    The Nation of Israel has brought us the prophets and the Christ .... and The Christ will return as The King of Kings ... and He lands in Israel .... and the devil hates it ..... because his end is near.

    Choose sides carefully
     
  4. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    So why don't you post a verse or so and lets discuss? That's what this is all about - not long ramblings of your opinion.
     
  5. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    Why dont you read Jeremiah yourself

    If I read it again you will still be the same

    If I quote the whole thing , you will still be the same

    You have decided that you alone are central in Gods Plans

    I know of no remedy for your feelings of special pride and feelings of exclusiveness

    I do not know why you feel you must remove Israel from future events

    ................................................

    I will go on record and tell you the next two things to happen in Israel

    1. God will arise and have favor and compassion on Zion. The appointed time has come.

    2. No longer will Israel be surrounded by nations who are thorns and briars in her side .... They will live there in peace and safety in the land God gave his servant Jacob

    The land he gave his servant Jacob is a lot bigger than that tiny sliver of land Israel occupies today .... the land of Jacob comprises part of Egypt ... Saudi Arabia .... a slice of Jordan .... almost half of Iraq .... the southern parts of Lebanon and Syria

    That is what is next

    The hand of the miraculous will be self evident when those things occur.
     
  6. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    OK I read Jeremiah 30. Here are my thoughts. Jeremiah wrote that prophecy before Judah and Jerusalem were exiled to Babylon. Therefore, any restoration spoken of in his prophecy has to pertain to the restoration from Babylon. Now if you want to discuss specific verses, let's go.
     
  7. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    Yes Jeremiah 30 is written with the Babylonian situation in mind ... and speaks to the restoration to the land after the Babylonian captivity .....

    However within it are the hints of an even future restoration as well .... when they will serve God and David their king .... which is expected to be the Messiah .... (who is often referred to being on Davids throne) (or a descendant of David) ...... the actual King David had been dead many years before Jeremiah did his writing.

    So that is one subtle hint .... not an absolutely clear message , but there nonetheless

    There also will be another future destruction to come for Babylon (in revelation) so a duplicate hint there as well.

    These following verses are duplicated in Jeremiah & Revelation:
    Jeremiah 30:22 .... (at that time) ... you will be my people, and I will be your God.”
    Revelation 21:3 .... (at that time) .... They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God

    There is also mention of ..... "the time of Jacobs trouble" ... long presumed to be endtimes events

    There is a bit more than that , but I am tired and off to bed

    Here is the best description of Jeremiah 30 I have ever heard ..... it was by a devout Jewish-Hebrew scholar

    He was asked if Jeremiah 30 was historical ...... he said absolutely yes !
    He was asked if Jeremiah 30 was still future ..... he said absolutely yes !

    Clear as mud .... right !! :)

    I think a big hint is also given in the last verse ..... presuming God will fully expend his wrath in the tribulation days to come ...... I find the following statement is another hint it is still future
    Jeremiah 30:23-24
    See, the storm of the Lord will burst out in wrath, a driving wind swirling down on the heads of the wicked.
    The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart.

    In days to come you will understand this.
     
  8. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    @ChristRoseFromTheDead:

    Just for our point of reference, are you a Preterist, or taking that position? That's the only group I ever hear saying that all the prophecies are fulfilled, as if there's liitle, if anything at all to transpire yet in the future.
     
  9. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Partial. I believe all prophecy regarding the earthly kingdoms of Judah and Israel has been fulfilled. They have run their course. Anything not yet fulfilled, or currently being fulfilled, pertains to the kingdom of GOD.
     
  10. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    And they all dropped dead?
    Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
    Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
    Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

    Where is the sanctuary right about now?
    Uh, yeah. In fact there will be more than two...

    First there will be the King of Kings...

    Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Carefully note He is NOT the King of King, and Lord of Lord, He is the King of KingS adn Lord of LordS. Now what does this say...

    Eze 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
    Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

    Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

    Hos 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
    Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

    Now these prophecies were written LONG AFTER David was dead and buried, so they are future.

    Oh and by the way...

    Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


    Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
     
  11. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    This is why I don't debate any longer with Preterists, as I get further teaching my cats calculus. The "Kingdom of God" as you call it has everything to do with Israel's involvement because the Kingdom has inheritance promised, and in turn involved Israel--- that's the fundamental essence of the promises for those who have a grasp on them. And John 8:32's previous post are just some examples because there's nothing that fulfilled them yet. However, even if we said this, Preterists always have a way of conjuring up some sort of "fulfilment" anyway (and usually a bland, anemic one at that), so there's no point.

    I don't have problems with anyone who outright says (such as an atheist) "yeah, that's what it says but I don't believe it." But there's something twisted in claiming you believe the bible and then deny things that obviously weren't fulfilled yet, or worse, invent something. Even atheists can see things clearly predicted that did not come to pass yet, except they just scoff at them.
     
  12. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    They were condemned by the GOD of creation. Figurative speech flies over your head apparently.

    Surely you're not that clueless.

    And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Revelation 11:19

    But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. Hebrews 9:11-12

    David their king is figurative speech for the throne of David, which was just a shadow of the true throne of Christ, the root and offspring of David. Again, it flies over your head.

    The promises were never to natural Israel. They have always been to spiritual Israel. If you like we can get into this aspect which is really a key to prophecy.
     
  13. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Despite the fact there's myriads of scripture specifically naming genealogical lineages for promises.....

    Like I said, these are the fundamental essence of the promises for those who have a grasp on them. And again, inventions.
     
  14. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    Right. The natural seed definitely participated in the promises, but the promises were never to the natural seed. They were always to the spiritual seed whom GOD chose. That is why in the midst of natural Israel you had those who were GOD's people and those who weren't. It is a matter of faith, not natural lineage, even though that is the channel through which the promises were passed until Christ.
     
  15. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba Well-Known Member

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    Like i said .... read Joel chapter 3

    Everybody agrees that it is still future

    And the very first sentence reads ...

    “In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,

    You are following the 1900 year old error of "spiritualizing Israel"

    Those "spiritualizing of Israel" teachings were bullsit then , and are bullsit now.
     
  16. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    I prefer the term 'male bovine fecal matter'. I find it fits Pretersit teaching very appropriately.
     
  17. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    That's bull-splat. First you say "right', and then you say "not so". Sounds like this liberal President we have being a good talker. No substance, absolutely no substance in what you say and you know it. Like I said, this is why I won't bother with Preterists. You just contradicted yourself.

    And we know that's not Kosher. :lol:

    BTW, we miss you "you-know-where". Stop in and say hello to Kriss and me and others. You are highly regarded there.
     
  18. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    That's a perfect example how 'literalists' interpret words only one way, despite the intended meaning. You apparently think I agreed with you and in doing so contradicted myself, but all I was saying was that 'yeah I know what you're saying, I've heard it before, but it's not the reality'.

    I don't know what 'you-know-where' or Kriss are.
     
  19. Polt

    Polt New Member

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    If that fantasy weren't causing so much harm today, it would be laughable.
     
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    What's worse is that many believers trapped in men's doctrines of Preterism don't have a clue as to how false ones are the driving force behind their ideas, to trick believers into supporting the coming New World Order and "one world government" movements, a working that our Lord Jesus is going to completely destroy at His return.

    In Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley's 1960's work Tragedy And Hope, he revealed how western Socialists have enlisted Christian leadership joined with their world socialist one world government plans. The ex-KGB defector to the U.S., Anatoliy Golitsyn, covered the same things in his 1984 book New Lies For Old, about western Christian leaders meeting in religious summits in Moscow. Quigley was supportive of how those Christian leaders think about a future socialist one-world, for they believe they are destined by Christ to literally create His Kingdom on earth now, without Christ being here (some of them go so far as to believe our Lord Jesus' return to this earth to setup His Kingdom isn't actually required).

    In order to be on the same boat with those deceived Christian leaders and their organizations, supporting the world globalist movement, it means to also be supportive of all religions joining together, which is what the inter-faith globalist movement is about. What brethren deceived by that working don't realize is that it's all in prep for the coming pseudo-Christ, to get them to bow in false worship to that false one who comes prior to our Lord Jesus' return.
     
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