Poll: Truth7t7 most famous replies

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're claiming or implying that the only thing that God does with the rod of iron is what Psalm 2:9 says He is going to do - smite them with a rod of iron, and you're claiming that He does not rule/shepherd with a rod of iron.

No, that is not what I'm claiming. I have clarified what I'm claiming more than once so it's not even possible that you are reading everything that I'm saying carefully. What I'm claiming is that ruling/shepherding with a rod of iron relates to destruction rather than what you might normally think that ruling/shepherding would mean. There is a difference between using a wooden staff to keep the sheep in line and using a rod of iron as a weapon to ward of predators and I've made this point more than once as well.

Also, I've made the point that it indicates that the very ones who He smites/breaks/destroys with a rod of iron and treads in the winepress of the wrath of God are the same ones He "rules" with a rod of iron, so from my perspective the onus is on you to explain how it's possible for Him to rule/shepherd people in the way you are thinking of after He has broken/destroyed them.

Note: The iron rod is a metaphor:

Of course it is, but it helps to know what an iron rod was used for in a literal way in order to understand the metaphor.

1. God ruled/shepherded His people of the house of Israel with an iron rod, and the time came when He smote them with the same iron rod, and sent them into exile in the nations, the iron rod in His hand with which He smote them at the time, being the king of Assyria.

2. God ruled/shepherded His people Judah with an iron rod, and the time came when He smote them with the same iron rod, and sent them into exile in Babylon, the iron rod in His hand with which He smote them at the time, being the king of Babylon.

3. God ruled/shepherded His people Judah with an iron rod, and the time came when He smote them with the same iron rod, and sent them into exile in the nations, the iron rod in His hand with which He smote them at the time, being Titus and the Romans.

4. Jesus rules/shepherds His people with an iron rod, and the time is coming when He will smite them with the same iron rod at the hand of the beast, because of the waywardness of His people.

Where does it say that God/Jesus ever ruled/shepherded believers with an iron rod? Is that not what you're trying to claim? It seems so. So, show me where exactly it ever indicates that He did that. According to Psalm 2:8-9 it is "the heathen" that He uses His iron rod on, not believers. This is a key point that you should be willing to address. If you can't show Him ever using a rod of iron on believers, then you have nothing to support your belief about what it means for Him to rule with a rod of iron.

5. The Revelation states that He will rule/shepherd (the Greek word used in the Revelation translates as shepherd) the nations with an iron rod, and He will use the same iron rod to judge the nations when He returns, the iron rod in His hand being Himself.

The prophecy that Revelation references (Psalm 2:8-9) indicates that He will destroy the heathen with His rod of iron. That can't be ignored. This shows that Him ruling and judging the nations ("nations" is a bad translation - should be "heathen") with a rod of iron has to do with Him destroying them.

I found it difficult to believe that someone as knowledgeable of scripture as you are, will actually not know this.

LOL!!! I find it difficult to believe that you weren't already aware that I don't interpret all these things the same way you do. You acted like your interpretation of those things are facts, which is not the case. You have done nothing so far to show that God/Jesus ever has or ever will deal with believers with a rod of iron. We already know from Psalm 2:8-9 that Jesus will destroy unbelievers with it (figuratively speaking, of course).

I really did believe, until now, that you understood the difference between ruling/shepherding, and smiting.

I, of course, since I'm not an idiot, know the general difference between those terms, but ruling/shepherding and smiting with a rod of iron is another story. If you read Psalm 2:8-9 and Revelation 19:15-18 they both paint a picture of complete destruction. How can you just ignore that?

This is why I believed you were merely pretending not to know the difference.

I don't pretend. You should know that by now. I'm a straight shooter and I believe that is quite clear based on my posting style. I don't play games and I don't pretend. I have no reason to do that. I think everyone else here can clearly see that. No one else besides you has ever accused me of something like this.

Forgive me for having been wrong, but judging by what I've seen of your knowledge of scripture, it was an easy assumption to make

No, it absolutely was not. I have never done anything to indicate that I'm just here to play games and pretend to say things that I don't really mean.

- but maybe, once again, the reason why you refuse to understand the difference between ruling/shepherding and smiting when it comes to what is written in the Revelation, is because of your determination to defend a theology (i.e, Amil) which just does not add up under the scrutiny of all scripture), and to instead interpret scripture always in such a way as to comply with that theology.

I refuse to agree with your faulty understanding of those terms in the context of how they are used. You seem to be completely ignoring the context of complete destruction regarding the use of the rod of iron and that isn't my fault. That seems to be due to doctrinal bias. I don't know what else could cause that.

 

[Zao is life]

What I'm claiming is that ruling/shepherding with a rod of iron relates to destruction rather than what you might normally think that ruling/shepherding would mean.

Also, I've made the point that it indicates that the very ones who He smites/breaks/destroys with a rod of iron and treads in the winepress of the wrath of God are the same ones He "rules" with a rod of iron

According to Psalm 2:8-9 it is "the heathen" that He uses His iron rod on, not believers. This is a key point that you should be willing to address. If you can't show Him ever using a rod of iron on believers, then you have nothing to support your belief about what it means for Him to rule with a rod of iron.

Being ruled/shepherded with an iron rod by Christ is metaphorically telling us about the power, strength and resolve of Christ - the fact that He is no weakling, just because He rules as a loving Shepherd. Disobedience and rebellion of the part of the saints will also be dealt with, Israel and Judah being our examples.

You cannot deny that He will rule the nations with a rod of iron following His return without removing the mention of the nations from the description of the NHNE and New Jerusalem - and the Revelation of Jesus calls them "the nations of those who are saved". Let's look at the following, in context, then compare it with the Revelation's mention of the nations in the NHNE:

Rev.2 25-29
But that which you have, hold fast until I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
And he will rule [poimaino - shepherd] them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

1. The saints are told to keep His works to the end, until He comes.
3. The nations will be broken to pieces as the vessels of a potter when He comes.
2. Those who overcome and keep His works to the end are told that they will be given power over the nations (not before He comes, according to the context).
3. They are told that He (Jesus) will rule [poimaino - shepherd] the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 21:24-27
And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it (New Jerusalem); and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it. And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Who is ruling over the nations in Revelation 21:26?

1. New Jerusalem is also called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" in Rev.21:9.

The context of the nations being ruled with a rod of iron is following the return of Christ, following His crushing His enemies with an iron rod. It's the same context in Rev.19:15:

Rev.19:15
And out of his mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it he should strike the nations: and he shall rule [poimaino] them with a rod of iron: and he treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

1. He will strike the nations when He comes, and He Himself treads the winepress of the wrath of Almighty God.

2. He shall rule [poimaino] the nations with an iron rod.

Bearing the following fact in mind:

Immortality | Eternal life is in Christ alone, who alone is immortal, who alone has (eternal) life in Himself. Believing that they would "not surely die" (implying that Adam's immortality was in himself instead of in Christ alone) is what caused Adam and Eve to consider the deception Satan had put into their minds in the first place.

IMO Amils and most Premils don't get it. The NHNE and the thousand years commence together. Christ will shepherd the nations with a rod of iron - the nations who are mentioned as bringing their glory into New Jerusalem. Satan will go out and deceive the nations at the close of the thousand years, after being released again. The rebellious will be destroyed by fire coming down from God out of heaven. They no doubt had been first deceived by Satan into believing that "they would not surely die", implying that their immortality is in themselves, instead of in Christ alone, who alone is immortal and who alone has life in Himself.

Satan is destroyed only at this point. He will be thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are.

But that which you have, hold fast until I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
And he will rule [poimaino - shepherd] them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Rev.2 25-29.

Most Premils have "the nations" being ruled over being mortals. I disagree. There will be immortals ruling as kings and priests over the nations (immortals):

28 And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The nations of those who are saved - the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve - will be tested once Satan has been released again, just as Adam and Eve were.

Amils ignore many things, such as the context of Rev.2 25-29: "But that which you have, hold fast until I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule [poimaino - shepherd] them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

They also ignore the fact that the nations are mentioned in New Jerusalem (and they ignore many other things).

Most Premils ignore certain things also, such as the fact that there is no mention of a thousand years between what is promised to those who came out from great tribulation in Revelation 7 and what is promised in the NHNE to those who overcome in Revelation 21. So they have the nations being ruled over as mortals and the NHNE following the thousand years and the thousand years following the return of Christ.

Amils have the thousand years preceding the return of Christ. IMO they are both wrong.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Being ruled/shepherded with an iron rod by Christ is metaphorically telling us about the power, strength and resolve of Christ - the fact that He is no weakling, just because He rules as a loving Shepherd. Disobedience and rebellion of the part of the saints will also be dealt with, Israel and Judah being our examples.

You cannot deny that He will rule the nations with a rod of iron following His return without removing the mention of the nations from the description of the NHNE and New Jerusalem - and the Revelation of Jesus calls them "the nations of those who are saved". Let's look at the following, in context, then compare it with the Revelation's mention of the nations in the NHNE:

Rev.2 25-29
But that which you have, hold fast until I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
And he will rule [poimaino - shepherd] them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

1. The saints are told to keep His works to the end, until He comes.
3. The nations will be broken to pieces as the vessels of a potter when He comes.
2. Those who overcome and keep His works to the end are told that they will be given power over the nations (not before He comes, according to the context).
3. They are told that He (Jesus) will rule [poimaino - shepherd] the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 21:24-27
And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it (New Jerusalem); and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it. And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Who is ruling over the nations in Revelation 21:26?

1. New Jerusalem is also called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" in Rev.21:9.

The context of the nations being ruled with a rod of iron is following the return of Christ, following His crushing His enemies with an iron rod. It's the same context in Rev.19:15:

Rev.19:15
And out of his mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it he should strike the nations: and he shall rule [poimaino] them with a rod of iron: and he treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

1. He will strike the nations when He comes, and He Himself treads the winepress of the wrath of Almighty God.

2. He shall rule [poimaino] the nations with an iron rod.

Bearing the following fact in mind:

Immortality | Eternal life is in Christ alone, who alone is immortal, who alone has (eternal) life in Himself. Believing that they would "not surely die" (implying that Adam's immortality was in himself instead of in Christ alone) is what caused Adam and Eve to consider the deception Satan had put into their minds in the first place.

IMO Amils and most Premils don't get it. The NHNE and the thousand years commence together. Christ will shepherd the nations with a rod of iron - the nations who are mentioned as bringing their glory into New Jerusalem. Satan will go out and deceive the nations at the close of the thousand years, after being released again. The rebellious will be destroyed by fire coming down from God out of heaven. They no doubt had been first deceived by Satan into believing that "they would not surely die", implying that their immortality is in themselves, instead of in Christ alone, who alone is immortal and who alone has life in Himself.

Satan is destroyed only at this point. He will be thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are.

But that which you have, hold fast until I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
And he will rule [poimaino - shepherd] them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Rev.2 25-29.

Most Premils have "the nations" being ruled over being mortals. I disagree. There will be immortals ruling as kings and priests over the nations (immortals):

28 And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The nations of those who are saved - the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve - will be tested once Satan has been released again, just as Adam and Eve were.

Amils ignore many things, such as the context of Rev.2 25-29: "But that which you have, hold fast until I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule [poimaino - shepherd] them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

They also ignore the fact that the nations are mentioned in New Jerusalem (and they ignore many other things).

Most Premils ignore certain things also, such as the fact that there is no mention of a thousand years between what is promised to those who came out from great tribulation in Revelation 7 and what is promised in the NHNE to those who overcome in Revelation 21. So they have the nations being ruled over as mortals and the NHNE following the thousand years and the thousand years following the return of Christ.

Amils have the thousand years preceding the return of Christ. IMO they are both wrong.​

If I'm understanding your right, you're basically saying that you believe neither Amil nor Premil can be true. Does this mean you are now a Postmil? I don't know what other options there can be. Do you believe that Jesus will return before or after the thousand years? It has to be one or the other, but it seems like you're trying to say it can be neither (impossible), unless you're Postmil. I can't really make any sense out of what you believe at this point.

It's clear to me that Revelation 21 is talking about the eternal new heavens and new earth being ushered in and there being no more death, mourning, pain or sorrow at that point. There won't be saved nations and unsaved nations at that point. There will be saved, immortal people on the new earth and the unsaved will be in the lake of fire. That's it.

 

[Zao is life]

If I'm understanding your right, you're basically saying that you believe neither Amil nor Premil can be true. Does this mean you are now a Postmil? I don't know what other options there can be. Do you believe that Jesus will return before or after the thousand years? It has to be one or the other, but it seems like you're trying to say it can be neither (impossible), unless you're Postmil. I can't really make any sense out of what you believe at this point.

It's clear to me that Revelation 21 is talking about the eternal new heavens and new earth being ushered in and there being no more death, mourning, pain or sorrow at that point. There won't be saved nations and unsaved nations at that point. There will be saved, immortal people on the new earth and the unsaved will be in the lake of fire. That's it.

No one said anything about unsaved nations.

There will still be cycles of seasons, days, weeks, months and years. The first one thousand of the last mentioned cycles has Satan bound and unable to deceive any of the nations (who are all saved).

The first time the devil contradicted God saying, "You will not surely die" (which implies that Adam and Eve's immortality was in themselves, instead of in Christ the Word of God alone, who alone is immortal, who alone has life in Himself), Adam and Eve believed it. Then they did what Satan said they should do, which God had told them not to do because if they did, they would surely die. And so when they believed in their own immortality, they died.

At the close of one thousand cycles of years, when Satan is released again, many among those saved nations in the NHNE will believe their immortality is in themselves instead of in Christ who alone is immortal, who alone has life in Himself, and will follow Satan's deception.

Believing our immortality post-resurrection is in ourselves is believing we will not surely die - because the lie implies that the creature has immortality and (eternal) life in himself, rather than in Christ (the Creator) alone, who alone is immortal, and who alone has eternal life in Himself.

It is only those who had refused to worship the beast who are promised that the second death will have no power over them in Revelation 20:4. And only the apostles + those who overcome and keep Christ's word to the end are promised that they will rule the nations with Christ, under His authority. The text of Revelation 20:4 is silent on all the other saints who had ever died in Christ without ever having been tested in this way, or in the way their ancestors Adam and Eve had been.

Those chosen by God to rule over the nations will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, they were not ruling over "the twelve tribes of the Jews" after Christ died and rose again.

In other words, immortals chosen by God to rule over other immortals, none of whom possess immortality in themselves, which those who follow Satan's final deception before he is destroyed in the lake of fire will tragically discover (the way Adam did when he believed he would not surely die if he did what Satan deceived him into believing would make him like the Most High).

It will come at the close of one thousand cycles of years in the NHNE, when Satan is released into it, just as he was into the Garden of Eden.

IMO you are completely wrong on the false notion that Satan is already bound.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No one said anything about unsaved nations.​

You mentioned "saved nations", so I thought that implied you thought there was also unsaved nations. I don't personally think it's referring to nations at all. The Greek word "ethnos" has several definitions and "nations" is just one of them. I think it's just referring to saved people in general.

There will still be cycles of seasons, days, weeks, months and years. The first one thousand of the last mentioned cycles has Satan bound and unable to deceive any of the nations (who are all saved).​

I have no idea where you get this from. I'm not sure I even care since you seem to have this view all to yourself, but feel free to tell me where you get this idea from if you want.

The first time the devil contradicted God saying, "You will not surely die" (which implies that Adam and Eve's immortality was in themselves, instead of in Christ the Word of God alone, who alone is immortal, who alone has life in Himself), Adam and Eve believed it. Then they did what Satan said they should do, which God had told them not to do because if they did, they would surely die. And so when they believed in their own immortality, they died.

At the close of one thousand cycles of years, when Satan is released again, many among those saved nations in the NHNE will believe their immortality is in themselves instead of in Christ who alone is immortal, who alone has life in Himself, and will follow Satan's deception.

Believing our immortality post-resurrection is in ourselves is believing we will not surely die - because the lie implies that the creature has immortality and (eternal) life in himself, rather than in Christ (the Creator) alone, who alone is immortal, and who alone has eternal life in Himself.​

Where is any of this taught in scripture, though? I don't see it taught anywhere in scripture. I'm also not aware of anyone else who believes this. There are so many people on this forum and similar forums who have beliefs all to themselves. Is that how God works? Does He reveal things like this to only one person? I don't believe so.

It is only those who had refused to worship the beast who are promised that the second death will have no power over them in Revelation 20:4. And only the apostles + those who overcome and keep Christ's word to the end are promised that they will rule the nations with Christ, under His authority. The text of Revelation 20:4 is silent on all the other saints who had ever died in Christ without ever having been tested in this way, or in the way their ancestors Adam and Eve had been.

Those chosen by God to rule over the nations will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, they were not ruling over "the twelve tribes of the Jews" after Christ died and rose again.

In other words, immortals chosen by God to rule over other immortals, none of whom possess immortality in themselves, which those who follow Satan's final deception before he is destroyed in the lake of fire will tragically discover (the way Adam did when he believed he would not surely die if he did what Satan deceived him into believing would make him like the Most High).

It will come at the close of one thousand cycles of years in the NHNE, when Satan is released into it, just as he was into the Garden of Eden.

IMO you are completely wrong on the false notion that Satan is already bound.​

Yes, I'm well aware that you believe that I'm wrong, but at the same time I don't really care that you believe that.

 

[Zao is life]

You mentioned "saved nations", so I thought that implied you thought there was also unsaved nations. I don't personally think it's referring to nations at all. The Greek word "ethnos" has several definitions and "nations" is just one of them. I think it's just referring to saved people in general.

Another example of how you will always interpret scripture and words and the meaning of words in such a way as to ensure that it complies with Amil theology.

To Amils, "Amillennialism = Christianity", and so like scripture itself, the meaning of words must be changed wherever and whenever necessary to force scripture to comply with Amil - a good example being how Satan being "bound so that he is unable to deceive the nations" becomes Satan being "restricted" so that he is "unable to prevent the spread of the gospel and the expansion of the Kingdom of Christ"

etc etc etc

You always prove my point because you always, always change the meaning of scripture and of words in the way you have just shown above (once again) so as to ensure that all scripture and the meaning of words in verses comply with Amil theology.

This is why Amils will always be the last people who will be able to point out any problems with the truth and the fact that the thousand years does not begin before the return of Christ.

PS: I really don't care whether or not you care whether or not I disagree with you.

Nor do I care either for such childish remarks as the one I just made above, which are always nothing more or less than responses to equally childish remarks, which I really don't care for either.