POLL: Was Jesus PERFECT?

[1stCenturyLady]

and there is NOTHING that Jesus did on earth that we cannot do, except remain without sin.

That is a strange thing to say. Christians better not sin or they are not Christians. But it is nothing we can do in our own strength. That is the major reason for the baptism of the Holy Spirit to receive the seed of the Father so our nature which was crucified with Christ is born again and is a new creature with the laws of God written on our hearts. The "doctrine" of many is so flawed where pastors tell us week after week we are sinners. Well speak for yourself, I am a daughter of God.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. John 8:34-36

1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

We are not saved just from the "punishment" of sin, but from sin, itself. Jesus takes away our sin, He doesn't just cover it and leaves it there.

Romans 8:1-9
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[friend of]

Any notion that Jesus was not perfect (sinless) is heresy.

 

[Deborah_]

In Hebrews it says, "Son though He was, He learned obedience from what He suffered and once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him." (Hebrews 5:8,9)

This is ultimately a debate about definitions. What exactly do we mean by the word 'perfect'? It certainly could mean 'sinless' - but that isn't the sense in which the writer to the Hebrews is using it here. In order for Jesus to be the perfect substitute for us, He had to live a sinless life all the way to the end (which is where "learning obedience" comes in; we don't really understand what obedience means until we are faced with its full cost) - so He wasn't perfectly qualified until His life was completed.

 

[Dave L]

@Bobby Jo
I won't vote because most people make a presumption as what God calls perfect. Job was perfect according to verse 1 of chapter 1 yet did he commit no sins after that?

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

As for Jesus, from what I think I know and understand he would have been both sinless and perfect, but how could I really know unless God had revealed it to me? He has not! Therefore no vote!

How can you have faith your sins are forgiven by Christ's death, if he was sinful and died only for his own sins? It is only because he was sinless that he could credit his death, that he didn't deserve, to sinners who deserve death. Being God, his death was of infinite value.

 

[bbyrd009]

Unless Jesus was the PERFECT LAMB he could not have "Paid it all"

( Although my friend @bbyrd009 will probably not agree with this

mostly bc of the sense in which Scripture does not agree with that, even if "all to Him I owe" is in there and everything. But ppl who seek a scapegoat will have a scapegoat I guess, and "...why have You forsaken Me?" is there whenever one is ready too, right. Bc the accepted reason for that is demonstrably not the real reason, and I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

If we had been taught anything in school, the Greek classics would have given us familiarity with the "God sacrifices Son" theme and this would be a much easier conversation...but it's all in the Bible anyway, 1 Corinthians 3:6 et al, Nehushtan, etc

So if I have an objection to the song, it's that "all to Him i owe" is left way too ambiguous, but then I guess no one would want to sing the song corrected anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

In Hebrews it says, "Son though He was, He learned obedience from what He suffered and once made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him." (Hebrews 5:8,9)

This is ultimately a debate about definitions. What exactly do we mean by the word 'perfect'? It certainly could mean 'sinless' - but that isn't the sense in which the writer to the Hebrews is using it here. In order for Jesus to be the perfect substitute for us, He had to live a sinless life all the way to the end (which is where "learning obedience" comes in; we don't really understand what obedience means until we are faced with its full cost) - so He wasn't perfectly qualified until His life was completed.

another good point on the way to understanding No Son of Man may die for another's sins imo, ya.

 

[bbyrd009]

@Bobby Jo
I won't vote because most people make a presumption as what God calls perfect. Job was perfect according to verse 1 of chapter 1 yet did he commit no sins after that?

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1

As for Jesus, from what I think I know and understand he would have been both sinless and perfect, but how could I really know unless God had revealed it to me? He has not! Therefore no vote!

i didn't vote for I guess a similar reason, that being that I am being called to make a value judgement that I am not qualified to make. But then the riddle of why Jesus (and Paul too for that matter) was deemed innocent after committing several crimes punishable by death is there for anyone who seeks, too. Ppl were regularly executed for much less then, and the story does not make even logical sense bc it is not supposed to.

 

[bbyrd009]

Did Jesus offend anyone? yes
On purpose? a bit harder to determine, but apparently
So another conundrum, and imo the point might be to suggest (force) an objective decision reply (Jesus was/was not "perfect") onto a subjective situation...um, how to translate that into English tho lol. Oh ok, you might look for ppl who insist upon one or the other answer--generally speaking just the one though I guess--and determine if Christ offends them, iow take note of their confessions maybe, something like that, and fwiw I would not be holding my breath there either lol

Iow we generally say one way and do another way, and the tests we can devise usually apply to everyone else. How do we test ourselves in this? I'm not sure it could even be done

But obv many ppl vehemently saying they are not offended by Christ who actually are, many will cry "LordLord" and all that, or even "Jesus paid it all," not realizing that the debt was all in their minds too, no diff from the snakes in the wilderness.

Do yourself a favor imo, and understand the only other way "Christ died for my sins" can even be understood, bc I think there is only one other possible way really. Even if you disagree with it after you find it, you will at least have found it then

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus was perfect, the Lamb of God
God (supposedly) "forsook" Him
"but God only did that bc He desired a sacrifice for us"
"but God only did that bc He could not abide sin"
no Son of Man may die for another's sins
I desire mercy, not sacrifice

maybe another reflection that will hopefully fall apart for someone
Oh daughters of Jerusalem, do not find love until you are ready

 

[APAK]

To All,

Sometimes church doctrines remove us from the TRUTH of Scripture. They often gloss over specifics and we end up with generalities. So we know that Jesus was sinless, which often equates "sinless" as "perfect", and they're not the same. -- Thus this Poll, and more importantly, the exhortation to read, research, and become intimate with Scripture and thereby our Saviour!

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

Will try not to make a tome out of this subject…

A written or drawn symbol in any language can have problems in interpretation, meaning and intent. People will not ‘see’ the symbol the same way based on individual data or life experiences. Now the symbolic word called ‘perfect’ is especially a toughie. First it is what you call limiting, bounding and binary symbol. It is either on one extreme or off on another. On target or off target.

So, we ALWAYS need to caveat a symbol like ‘perfect.’ It can lead to wrong conclusions and communication can be easily lost or become chaotic very quickly.

So, for Jesus, the question is asked was (and is) he, perfect or imperfect?

Now we know because Jesus was and is the son of God and he is usually stacked up or compared with his Father. Is Jesus perfect as compared with his Father who is the essence of perfection?

What does scripture say?

Was Jesus super-human or a mini-god in terms of his Father? No

Was Jesus called good? No

Did Jesus have to learn from his Father in order to gain wisdom and understanding? Yes

Even though Jesus was sinless was he the author or source of being sinless? No

Was Jesus omnipotent? No

Was Jesus all-knowing? No

Did Jesus rely on his Father for comfort? Yes, many times.

Did Jesus show weakness before dying on the cross? At least three times: In the Garden before the cross, carrying the cross, and on the cross.

And there’s much more….

In this short conclusion then, Jesus was not perfect when compared to his Father. Jesus was human filled with his Father’s spirit from birth in increasing amounts…

Jesus was perfect as a human could be - yes, indeed, as the image or the perfect human copy, unblemished, and of his Father’s personality and attributes.

God, his Father and ours, is the only perfect spirit and life.

Bless you,

APAK
PS I voted NO!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

mostly bc of the sense in which Scripture does not agree with that, even if "all to Him I owe" is in there and everything. But ppl who seek a scapegoat will have a scapegoat I guess, and "...why have You forsaken Me?" is there whenever one is ready too, right. Bc the accepted reason for that is demonstrably not the real reason, and I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

If we had been taught anything in school, the Greek classics would have given us familiarity with the "God sacrifices Son" theme and this would be a much easier conversation...but it's all in the Bible anyway, 1 Corinthians 3:6 et al, Nehushtan, etc

So if I have an objection to the song, it's that "all to Him i owe" is left way too ambiguous, but then I guess no one would want to sing the song corrected anyway

Desires mercy and not sacrifice. This is all just an opinion and can’t really support it. It was mankind who backed away from a relationship with God at
Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Man’s first attempt to (vainly)cover himself and of course the foreshadow of Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

All the OT laws set so high that no man aside from the Spirit of God would not be able to perform all required. Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Set Purposely by God so high and unreachable to diminish all man’s vain attempts at the bondage of performing rather than returning to fellowship with the One who desires fellowship with Gis creation. Martha and Mary: one was troubled at performing all required of servant. Mary sat at the Lord’s feet.

Deuteronomy 33:1-3
[1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. [2] And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. [3] Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Maybe ‘perfect’ ‘complete’ ‘whole’ is not performance and more about fellowship hence those words none want to hear ... Lord, Lord... “I never knew you.”

 

[bbyrd009]

Desires mercy and not sacrifice. This is all just an opinion and can’t really support it. It was mankind who backed away from a relationship with God at
Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Man’s first attempt to (vainly)cover himself and of course the foreshadow of Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

All the OT laws set so high that no man aside from the Spirit of God would not be able to perform all required. Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Set Purposely by God so high and unreachable to diminish all man’s vain attempts at the bondage of performing rather than returning to fellowship with the One who desires fellowship with Gis creation. Martha and Mary: one was troubled at performing all required of servant. Mary sat at the Lord’s feet.

Deuteronomy 33:1-3
[1] And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. [2] And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. [3] Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

Maybe ‘perfect’ ‘complete’ ‘whole’ is not performance and more about fellowship hence those words none want to hear ... Lord, Lord... “I never knew you.”

nice imo, and when Seir and Paran are seen for what they are, more truth is revealed, Seir is a nickname for Egypt, Paran is associated with Hagar, etc

 

[Bobby Jo]

Jesus was and is the son of God and he is usually stacked up or compared with his Father. ...

Just to clarify your statement from my perspective:

Jesus was with GOD and the Holy Spirit from the beginning. As previously provided in Philippians 2:5, Jesus gave up his GOD Nature to become a man. And after his resurrection HE took back his GOD Nature. And so although each have their different roles, they are one just as a husband and wife have different roles but are one.

Or so it seems to me,
Bobby Jo

 

[marks]

To All,

Sometimes church doctrines remove us from the TRUTH of Scripture. They often gloss over specifics and we end up with generalities. So we know that Jesus was sinless, which often equates "sinless" as "perfect", and they're not the same. -- Thus this Poll, and more importantly, the exhortation to read, research, and become intimate with Scripture and thereby our Saviour!

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

I'll say with the others that obviously it depends on what you mean by perfect. Morally excellent? Never missed with a hammer? No birthmarks?

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

and there is NOTHING that Jesus did on earth that we cannot do, except remain without sin.

Why not OP with this?

And on reflection . . . what about forgiving sins?

Much love!
Mark

 

[farouk]

'A Perfect Path of Purest Grace'

"A perfect path of purest grace,
Unblemished and complete,
Was Thine, Thou spotless Nazarite,
Pure, even to the feet.

2. Thy stainless life, Thy lovely walk,
In every aspect true,
From the defilement all around,
No taint of evil drew.

3. No broken service, Lord was Thine,
No change was in Thy way;
Unsullied in Thy holiness,
Thy strength knew no decay.

4. The vow was on Thee—Thou didst come,
To yield Thyself to death;
And consecration marked Thy path,
And spoke in every breath.

5. Morning by morning Thou didst wake,
Amidst this poisoned air;
Yet no contagion touched Thy soul,
No sin disturbed Thy prayer.

6. Thus, Lord we love to trace Thy course,
To mark where Thou hast trod,
And follow Thee with loving eye,
Up to the throne of God."

Wylie MacLeod

 

[marks]

As suggested, I'm using the Dictionary definition of "perfect", not a theological, physiological, psychological, or sociological definition, -- which hopefully excludes "songs".

So please weigh your vote according to Scriptural (thus Historical) evidence that EVERYTHING Jesus did turned out PERFECT.


Bobby Jo

Ah . . . a different question, relying on the so-called wisdom of man.

God does all things good. Did you have something in mind that God has failed at? The twice anointed blind man? Who is to say that was not perfectly what God wanted.

The disciples asked Jesus about a blind man, was he born blind for his sins, or his parents? For the glory of God. Jesus said He only does what He sees His Father do. Does that include failing? Did Jesus ever fail in His ministry? Did he ever make a crooked table? Maybe. Did He fail to serve as His Father intended? I don't think so.

Was Jesus perfect? Yes! By golf rules? I don't see the connection.

Was Jesus trying for an hole in one, and had to settle for an eagle? Or was Jesus anointing this man twice for reasons we don't know? And if for reasons we don't know, why assume it was out of "Jesus' failure"? If we don't know?

Much love!
Mark

 

[APAK]

Just to clarify your statement from my perspective:

Jesus was with GOD ad the Holy Spirit from the beginning. As previously provided in Philippians 2:5, Jesus gave up his GOD Nature to become a man. And after his resurrection HE took back his GOD Nature. And so although each have their different roles, they are one just as a husband and wife have different roles but are one.

Or so it seems to me,
Bobby Jo

No..that would not be scriptural.

These types of words originate from key sayings and traditions of human thinking stemming back from folks that were not led by the Spirit of God, imo...example Phil 2:6a I believe you meant, does not say Jesus actually gave up any innate nature as of God. Jesus was the perfect copy/image of God, of the external appearance and form of God, and never his own Father's nature. An image or external mosaic is never the original! Many folks just simply ignore this fact as if it never was written in scripture. And in Phil 2:6b and there are two prevailing translations" 1. Jesus did not think it was robbery to be equal with God or 2. Jesus did not grasp/ or attempt to seize himself as being equal with God, his Father or to say he was God. Jesus would never do that as he was his obedient servant and loved his Father. Either translation never suggests that Jesus had God's NATURE at any time before, present or future That is a stretch to fit a hypothesis with an agenda, and a common one unfortunately.

Bless you,


APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

I'll say with the others that obviously it depends on what you mean by perfect. Morally excellent? Never missed with a hammer? No birthmarks?

Much love!
Mark

the video about "time" on my page addresses this,@ "entropy," which is also subjective, as the lecturer goes on to show, but briefly, red and green balls separated by color but in the same box, one on one side and one on the other, = "order," whereas mixed they = "entropy."

Except to someone who is red/green colorblind, to whom order and entropy in that context would have a completely diff definition! Iow "order" and "entropy" are subjective, as are "evil" and "sin" defined with two eyes, and more obviously perhaps "offense" is also quite subjective, as is "suffering" I guess

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In this account, it took Jesus TWO passes (an "eagle" in golf) at healing this man. And the lesson is that when Jesus came to earth as a man, he set aside his DIVINITY:

Mark 8:22 And they came to Beth-sa′ida. And some people brought to him a blind man, and begged him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the village; and when he had spit on his eyes and laid his hands upon him, he asked him, “Do you see anything?” 24 And he looked up and said, “I see men; but they look like trees, walking.” 25 Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and saw everything clearly.

Assuming maybe it wasn’t a ‘hole-in-one’...

power comes from God so doubtfully the Father’s power to heal (by the Son)changed in thoroughness in this instance but was purposely so...

Can’t remember the passage but the Lord spitting on the blind man’s eyes is explained in the OT? 1) He led the blind man out of the village. 2) Touched the ‘blind’ man twice: once for physical sight and second for spiritual sight. Don’t all have to been touched of God once for physical sight, but then again for Spiritual sight... to be made whole and complete? “Restored”? Does it not require both sights? So much in the word about trees ...one in garden that grew and shrouded all others, exaulted himself and fell. “I see men; but they look like trees, walking.”

Isaiah 61:3
[3] To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord , that he might be glorified.

Trees of righteousness planted...planted doesn’t mean stationary and not moving ...but trees walking?

*maybe backwards in He touches the Spiritually blind to restore sight before man can ever see clearly men? Can man see clearly without Spiritual sight?