POLL: Was Jesus PERFECT?

[amadeus]

which is not yet the whole story, right, David maybe wished he was dead before it was all over, but regardless this puts the below,
value to redeem others having died for sins he did not commit.
in quite a diff light huh? Who said that again, oh ya,
John 18:14 Lexicon: Now Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it was expedient for one man to die on behalf of the people.

and did David just get a pass, or what? David didn't need Christ?
But we can find this anytime someone "admits" in the OT too i guess

I would not worry much about the final end of the man, David. Rather I look at David as the type or shadow of or for you and me. Him and other rather than Jesus for Jesus never stumbled. Jesus never committed murder or adultery. Perhaps we have not either, but we certainly have sinned and come short of the glory of God [Rom 6:23]. This is why looking at David and other men of the OT who pleased God in some way are better types and shadows for us. Jesus is the ideal but how close is our history to His? To please God at all those types and shadows in the OT were perfect according to what God would call perfect. That is also what He expects of us and He has given all that is required to attain to it...

Yes, Caiphas, the High Priest, was also a prophet of God, even though he was perhaps a chief or THE chief conspirator against Jesus.
Was he also a type of shadow of anyone we know about today?

 

[brakelite]

While it is true that Jesus, as a man, had to learn obedience, we have no reason t o believe that even as a child he was ever disobedient. However, did he, as a child, know His Father's voice? I think He had to learn to listen before He could obey. At 12 He showed He was listening. And that what He had learned at His mother's feet and through His own learning of the scriptures, He had grown remarkably quickly.
But is a rosebud any less perfect than a full bloom?

As to what the death of the Son of God meant, I think that's a subject for another thread. Could go on for years.

 

[brakelite]

We know Jesus is now glorified with His Father in heaven. Many would say therefore, ah hah! He must be perfect. BUT, is a Husband without His bride perfect? Or is perfection attained in their mutual relationship? And because the marriage between the Son of God and His bride will be forever, and we will be forever learning, growing, and maturing, will the marriage ever be perfect? If Jesus is perfect now, will the marriage make Him imperfect because of our imperfections?

 

[amadeus]

If Jesus sinned, His death would have paid for his own sin only. As sinless diety, His unneeded death in the Godhood,is enough to stretch out over all humanity.

There. Hopeless jubble?

Actually if Jesus had sinned he could not have paid the price for his sin any more than we could qualify to pay the price for our own sins. The sacrifice had to be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.

This is why Jesus was sent. Adam and Eve killed themselves and all of their offspring. No one qualified so God had to make a different arrangement so that any one could ever be resurrected from the dead. He sent His Son who was without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. None of us could become that until someone had paid the price.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Do you have place in mind where Jesus failed at what He wanted to do? ...

... only as cited. -- But if a MINIMUM of Two Attempts was NECESSARY, -- then NO! HE did everything "PERFECT"!

Bobby Jo

 

[brakelite]

Actually if Jesus had sinned he could not have paid the price for his sin any more than we could qualify to pay the price for our own sins. The sacrifice had to be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.

This is why Jesus was sent. Adam and Eve killed themselves and all of their offspring. No one qualified so God had to make a different arrangement so that any one could ever be resurrected from the dead. He sent His Son who was without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. None of us could become that until someone had paid the price.

If Christ had sinned then His death would indeed have paid for his own sin, because the wages of sin is death. But there would have been no resurrection, and mankind would have been eternally lost.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Was he also a type of shadow of anyone we know about today?

? Obama ?
No, Obama was open in his hate for GOD, this nation, and for Israel. In fact, the most verbose personal curse in ALL of SCRIPTURE* is prophetic for Obama.

* Based upon the premise provided by J.R. Church in his book "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms"

​

Bobby Jo

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

To All,

Sometimes church doctrines remove us from the TRUTH of Scripture. They often gloss over specifics and we end up with generalities. So we know that Jesus was sinless, which often equates "sinless" as "perfect", and they're not the same. -- Thus this Poll, and more importantly, the exhortation to read, research, and become intimate with Scripture and thereby our Saviour!

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

The thought of perfection is expressed through Hebrew terms drawn from such verbs as ka·lalʹ (perfect [compare Eze 27:4]), sha·lamʹ (come to completion [compare Isa 60:20]), and ta·mamʹ (be completed, come to perfection [compare Ps 102:27; Isa 18:5]). In the Christian Greek Scriptures the words teʹlei·os (adjective), te·lei·oʹtes (noun), and te·lei·oʹo (verb) are used similarly, conveying such ideas as bringing to completeness or full measure (Lu 8:14; 2Co 12:9; Jas 1:4), being full grown, adult, or mature (1Co 14:20; Heb 5:14), having attained the appropriate or appointed end, purpose, or goal (Joh 19:28; Php 3:12).

For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called “perfect” is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God. Because of this Jesus could say of his Father: “Nobody is good, except one, God.” (Mr 10:18) Jehovah is incomparable in his excellence, worthy of all praise, supreme in his superb qualities and powers, so that “his name alone is unreachably high.” (Ps 148:1-13; Job 36:3, 4, 26; 37:16, 23, 24; Ps 145:2-10, 21)

 

[Dave L]

I certainly disagree with your equation.

Eventually they [perfect and sinless] will be equal in a person who is always yielding himself to God and looking to God, but, that comes with growth and maturity.

I believe that Job was perfect in the moment of the first cited verse, but not yet sinless. King David was perfect in heart toward God before being sinless. We also may be perfect in the eyes of God in a moment based on what have done with what God has given us.
Will we be so when we have finished our course here?

David spoke these words to his son:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

I believe that in David's words to Solomon God was speaking us so that we might understand how to be what He wants to be. Do we need an interpreter to understand His message?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

The main theme of the NT is Christ's sinlessness. If he sinned even once, he could only pay for his own sin on the cross. The reason he can pay for anyone's sins is because he was sinless. The only reason God could raise him from the dead and remain Just, is because he was sinless.

 

[bbyrd009]

Whole lotta "like this and like that" goin on up there, seems to me. Eva body knows, lol. Ok.
When one of you Quotes
No Son of Man may die for another's sins
I'll start reading again
Just not interested in this "Scripture is a buffet" crap, sorry

If you make your definitions fluid, then why do we discoures?

well, you say "your definitions" but they are not mine, so I am not sure what you are disagreeing with tbh. That was a brief and I guess inadequate synopsis of a lecture you should watch if you want to pursue this line much further I guess; the gist there is that the colorblind guy notices that some balls are slightly smaller than others, and would thus have a diff entropy to describe, and a diff order.

 

[marks]

Hypotheticals aren't real. Either there is entropy of there is not. Either it happens in this way or it does not.

It's that pesky Western Propositional thinking! Those who want it to be surreal never seem to like the objective. I imagine you hear that as an highly subjective statement, as communication fails to exist.

My 2 cents . . .

 

[marks]

... only as cited. -- But if a MINIMUM of Two Attempts was NECESSARY, -- then NO! HE did everything "PERFECT"!

Bobby Jo

Or, that in this case, the two-phased healing was God's perfect plan?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Actually if Jesus had sinned he could not have paid the price for his sin any more than we could qualify to pay the price for our own sins.

Not and survive. Men will pay for their sins, who have not received forgiveness, but they do not come out if it back into life. And they only pay for their own.

Much love!
Mark

 

[bbyrd009]

Hypotheticals aren't real. Either there is entropy of there is not. Either it happens in this way or it does not.

It's that pesky Western Propositional thinking! Those who want it to be surreal never seem to like the objective. I imagine you hear that as an highly subjective statement, as communication fails to exist.

My 2 cents . . .

oh, I am not arguing against the existence of order/entropy at all, and westerners do not engage in propositional thinking at all either I guess, which is why we use the terms "determinist," and note that determinists' "beliefs" are really "absolute truths" as far as they are concerned?

Propositional reasoning is Eastern dialectic, not the Hegelian dialectic we in the west all grow up with. Which is why oriental ppl engaging in a game and causing intentional ties makes no sense to us, etc

incidentally also why we always seem to have enemies, in my life it has gone from Japs to Russkies to Canadians to, now, Muslims

 

[bbyrd009]

I imagine you hear that as an highly subjective statement

not at all, it was very clear.

He who says he knows, does not
at least deserves an address tho imo? ty

 

[bbyrd009]

My God, my God (big, big clue there) why have you forsaken Me?

Is not asked for the reason we are told either, and Jesus addressing Abba as "God" is a clue to a riddle

 

[Bobby Jo]

... only as cited. -- But if a MINIMUM of Two Attempts was NECESSARY, -- then NO! HE did everything "PERFECT"!
Bobby Jo

Or, that in this case, the two-phased healing was God's perfect plan?

Much love!

EXCELLENT. That's the "discovery" which this POLL has thus far generated (at least for ME), and which can compel each of us to study, contemplate, and DECIDE!


Good summary, MarkS!
Bobby Jo

 

[amadeus]

The main theme of the NT is Christ's sinlessness. If he sinned even once, he could only pay for his own sin on the cross. The reason he can pay for anyone's sins is because he was sinless. The only reason God could raise him from the dead and remain Just, is because he was sinless.

You avoided both the OP and what I said in my post because to even consider it might make you consider questioning that which you have set in concrete in your own mind. Consider also returning to the lowest room and letting nothing of yourself determine God's plan. Rather let Him determine it and let Him lift you up in His Truth.

I have seen that you are familiar with the Bible, but you have taken the conclusions of theologians long dead in their flesh and made them your doctrines instead of listening God now. In spite of your thoughts to the contrary He is still speaking to people today... but not many of those claiming to be Christians are listening.

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers" John 10:4-5

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:27

 

[bbyrd009]

Not and survive. Men will pay for their sins, who have not received forgiveness, but they do not come out if it back into life. And they only pay for their own.

Much love!
Mark

ha you are still so sure, huh? But Christ was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, mark, and as you sow, so shall you reap applies to all too I guess

 

[Dave L]

You avoided both the OP and what I said in my post because to even consider it might make you consider questioning that which you have set in concrete in your own mind. Consider also returning to the lowest room and letting nothing of yourself determine God's plan. Rather let Him determine it and let Him lift you up in His Truth.

I have seen that you are familiar with the Bible, but you have taken the conclusions of theologians long dead in their flesh and made them your doctrines instead of listening God now. In spite of your thoughts to the contrary He is still speaking to people today... but not many of those claiming to be Christians are listening.

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers" John 10:4-5

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:27

If you know them by their fruits, why all the scandal in Pentecostal circles that is missing in the main stream churches?