POLL: Was Jesus PERFECT?

[Naomi25]

To All,

Sometimes church doctrines remove us from the TRUTH of Scripture. They often gloss over specifics and we end up with generalities. So we know that Jesus was sinless, which often equates "sinless" as "perfect", and they're not the same. -- Thus this Poll, and more importantly, the exhortation to read, research, and become intimate with Scripture and thereby our Saviour!

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

Hi Bobby. I voted yes, and I'll give you scripture why:

Christ, while fully man, was still fully God, and we see in scripture that God is perfect:

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. -Matthew 5:48

I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. -John 17:23

We also see in scripture that Christ has many perfect attributes:

But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. -1 Timothy 1:16

And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, -Hebrews 5:9

For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever. -Hebrews 7:28

Also we see that IN Christ, we strive towards perfection ourselves. If Christ is not perfect, how can he possibly bestow it?

For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.-Hebrews 2:10

Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. -1 John 2:4–6

No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. -1 John 4:12

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. -1 John 4:18a

I would also say about the last two verses...how could we not say about Christ that he loved perfectly, abided in God his Father perfectly and cast out fear?

So...yeah...I pretty much think that the bible sort of does say that Christ was perfect. Mostly that's because he was still fully God...he could not part with that side of his nature that much...and, like others have said...had he parted with it that much, sin would have crept in and he would not have been the sinless lamb of God. So...while perhaps you might think there is a technical difference between sinlessness and perfection, I think they run hand in hand.

 

[Dave L]

It is also written in scriptures that "...every man is a liar...". That means you or me as well when we speak a word we believe is true, but it is wrong. All of these thousands of denominations and believers have some errors, which when they speak them aloud to others, God would call lies. I have done it. You have done it. We all have done it. We all have been dishonest even if it was in ignorance. When our ignorance is corrected, should we not thank God for that?

It's possible to avoid all of this by walking in the Spirit.

 

[bbyrd009]

Some things surely we can be certain about... Deterministic if you will. One of those things being that sin brings death... Apart from the numerous animals sacrificed because of man's inability to, or unwillingness to give up sin, that man dies, and most importantly of the wages of sin want death, then Jesus need not have died. Our understanding of why sin brings forth death is maybe lacking, but not the fact that death is the inevitable destiny for mankind. Except for divine intervention

well, I note that I sin but I do not die bl, but imo regardless of our semantics there we have
There is only One Immortal
to clarify all that

 

[bbyrd009]

It is also written in scriptures that "...every man is a liar...". That means you or me as well when we speak a word we believe is true, but it is wrong. All of these thousands of denominations and believers have some errors, which when they speak them aloud to others, God would call lies. I have done it. You have done it. We all have done it. We all have been dishonest even if it was in ignorance. When our ignorance is corrected, should we not thank God for that?

nice A

 

[marksman]

To All,

Sometimes church doctrines remove us from the TRUTH of Scripture. They often gloss over specifics and we end up with generalities. So we know that Jesus was sinless, which often equates "sinless" as "perfect", and they're not the same. -- Thus this Poll, and more importantly, the exhortation to read, research, and become intimate with Scripture and thereby our Saviour!

Thanks,
Bobby Jo

God gave me a revelation one day that Jesus was perfect because he had a perfect relationship with his Father.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Adam gave dominion to Satan, the Prince of this world. Jesus took it back at Calvary. The Meek will inherit the earth after the new creation.

“Adam gave dominion to Satan, the Prince of this world.” can see what you are saying at ‘this world’ the prince of death. Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the Prince of life cast out death. ‘The power of ‘the world to come’ overcomes the powers of this world and death. Acts 3:14-15 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; [15] And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.(Ephesians 5:1-10)

Works of the flesh do not inherit the Kingdom. Fruit of the Spirit inherit the kingdom. That is the question: then why reference dominion given to Adam to subdue when it never happened and never will because the ending there is death? Do the works of God —the fruit of the Spirit which is Life inherit the Kingdom? Or man’s works which is death.

1 Corinthians 15:45-47
[45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

It is the fruit of the Spirit m, the works of God which subdue and overcome the powers of this world. Hebrews 6:4-5
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
—which is not Adam or satan or works of the flesh’s dominion but The quickening Spirit which gives Life(Christ).

Why do we say Adam was given dominion and must have it and finish what he started at ‘to subdue’? When Adam (Man’s) dominion (works of the flesh) is no longer an option to enter into Life?

Philippians 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[amadeus]

Man (Adam) was given dominion yes. But Adam (man’s) dominion was taken away from man?

When did man lose dominion over himself? I do not believe that he did. This is where we can still see the two choices of men which have never been removed. A man may choose to (1) serve [surrender to] God (2) or not.

In the Garden of Eden it boiled down to obeying God by leaving the forbidden tree alone; or disobeying God by partaking of the forbidden tree. Joshua in effect confirms these choices here:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Man still ultimately has only those same two choices. Man has never been able to fix the things that are defiled or wrong within himself,
in spite of his advances in knowledge and technology and science...

Only God can fix the things defiled and wrong within a man, but God cannot break His own Word which gave us dominion. The dominion of a man allows him to work of and for himself which will never alone bring him closer to God. It will never make him a fit place for God to dwell [an inhabitable dwelling place]. That dominion of man does allow each man to man to open himself up [give God permission] to enter into him and do the necessary work of God. We must give that permission, and so God (to make the impossible possible) sent His Son to open the Way to the Tree of Life which was blocked when Adam and Eve disobeyed.

It is no more man’s labour and fruit but the fruit of the Spirit which remains. God’s work.

Yes, God's work within us. I won't go into how He worked for those people whose existence apparently was prior to Jesus' death and resurrection, and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost as per Acts 2 [OT believers] but rather how God can now work in and for you and me and other post-day of Pentecost believers.

God can because Jesus came and opened the Door and the Holy Spirit was sent to do the work within us. We must open the door [give our permission] to our own hearts and allow Him to come in and work. We must NOT quench the Spirit, hindering or stopping Him in the necessary work of cleaning us out and bringing to Life the Flesh of Jesus that we eat.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20

The works of man and the labour of man’s hands are burned (perishes) and comes to nothing. It is the Spirit who has Dominion. Christ as Lord over all. It is no longer Adam who has Dominion but Christ.
Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Does man think he has Dominion. Or does he? Does man keep the Dominion passed from Adam to subdue all. When it is God that subdues all?

Man has what God has given him but what is still habitable by God? Before being put out of the garden man had access to the Tree of Life, but that was lost until Jesus came to make such access again a possibility.

Man still had his two basic choices: God or mammon. Most people most of the time have chosen the latter... This has been the case from the beginning of time for each man.

Man's dominion which remains... is his problem. While he has time, [that allotted to each man], he alone can work in himself, but his work is a wasted effort effectively restricted to work in the ways of death. Man will work at it anyway to whatever goals he thinks chooses, but without God the ultimate end for him is still death.

This is why Jesus was sent to allow another possibility: Life [as God sees Life, not what according what men call life].

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

​

God’s will be done. Not man’s. God’s Dominion. Not man’s. In earth as it is in heaven. In heaven God has dominion not man. Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Daniel 4:25
[25] That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

Whose dominion is it? Who subdues? Does man still retain the dominion given to Adam to subdue?

God's dominion reigns everywhere except in each man while each man has his allotted time of dominion over himself unless...?

God gave a portion of His dominion to each man. Again God cannot break His own Word, but man can surrender his dominion to God. This is the first necessary step. While a man remains thusly surrendered, God can and does work within the man to clear out the garbage to make parts of that man habitable and then filling that habitable space with God's Word. This is why we need to eat the flesh [scripture] and drink the blood [Holy Spirit] of the Word of God [Jesus]. When a person with the Holy Spirit in him quenches that Spirit before the end of his allotted time, God cannot work in that person and that person is eating again from the forbidden tree...

Men after the disobedience of Adam and Eve were dead or defiled and therefore unfit as habitations of God. David writes in the following verses the need that existed in himself and in all of us until Jesus would come to open the Way to make a man a vessel, which had been uninhabitable, inhabitable.

"Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed;
I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids,
Until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob." Ps 132:3-5

In the beginning consider how God created things...

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

But man had defiled himself, he had defiled the place which was to be God's habitation... and now we will see this [now in some of us?] something new prophesied...

"Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men." Prov 8:30-31

How is it we become inhabitable instead of remaining uninhabitable but by the washing away of sin and being filled with the Living Word of God, so as to become a part of the Body of Christ, Jesus himself being the Head. We, you and I, are to be habitable or inhabitable parts of that Body... if we endure with Him to the end of our allotted time.

Consider the type or shadow of men on planet Earth. How much of our planet was easily habitable by men without special protection from the elements and with special work to obtain proper and sufficient places to work and to rest and food to eat?

What part of the planet is the undrinkable water of the oceans?

What part of the planet consists of dry waterless deserts?

What part of the planet consists of frozen waste [e,g, Antarctica]?

What inroads has man made to use some of that uninhabitable space into usable, habitable space?

This is the flesh and its work. What is the work of the Spirit in men?

 

[amadeus]

It's possible to avoid all of this by walking in the Spirit.

Amen! Why didn't you say that before?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When did man lose dominion over himself? I do not believe that he did. This is where we can still see the two choices of men which have never been removed. A man may choose to (1) serve [surrender to] God (2) or not.

In the Garden of Eden it boiled down to obeying God by leaving the forbidden tree alone; or disobeying God by partaking of the forbidden tree. Joshua in effect confirms these choices here:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Man still ultimately has only those same two choices. Man has never been able to fix the things that are defiled or wrong within himself,
in spite of his advances in knowledge and technology and science...

Only God can fix the things defiled and wrong within a man, but God cannot break His own Word which gave us dominion. The dominion of a man allows him to work of and for himself which will never alone bring him closer to God. It will never make him a fit place for God to dwell [an inhabitable dwelling place]. That dominion of man does allow each man to man to open himself up [give God permission] to enter into him and do the necessary work of God. We must give that permission, and so God (to make the impossible possible) sent His Son to open the Way to the Tree of Life which was blocked when Adam and Eve disobeyed.


Yes, God's work within us. I won't go into how He worked for those people whose existence apparently was prior to Jesus' death and resurrection, and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost as per Acts 2 [OT believers] but rather how God can now work in and for you and me and other post-day of Pentecost believers.

God can because Jesus came and opened the Door and the Holy Spirit was sent to do the work within us. We must open the door [give our permission] to our own hearts and allow Him to come in and work. We must NOT quench the Spirit, hindering or stopping Him in the necessary work of cleaning us out and bringing to Life the Flesh of Jesus that we eat.

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Rev 3:20


Man has what God has given him but what is still habitable by God? Before being put out of the garden man had access to the Tree of Life, but that was lost until Jesus came to make such access again a possibility.

Man still had his two basic choices: God or mammon. Most people most of the time have chosen the latter... This has been the case from the beginning of time for each man.

Man's dominion which remains... is his problem. While he has time, [that allotted to each man], he alone can work in himself, but his work is a wasted effort effectively restricted to work in the ways of death. Man will work at it anyway to whatever goals he thinks chooses, but without God the ultimate end for him is still death.

This is why Jesus was sent to allow another possibility: Life [as God sees Life, not what according what men call life].

​

God's dominion reigns everywhere except in each man while each man has his allotted time of dominion over himself unless...?

God gave a portion of His dominion to each man. Again God cannot break His own Word, but man can surrender his dominion to God. This is the first necessary step. While a man remains thusly surrendered, God can and does work within the man to clear out the garbage to make parts of that man habitable and then filling that habitable space with God's Word. This is why we need to eat the flesh [scripture] and drink the blood [Holy Spirit] of the Word of God [Jesus]. When a person with the Holy Spirit in him quenches that Spirit before the end of his allotted time, God cannot work in that person and that person is eating again from the forbidden tree...

Men after the disobedience of Adam and Eve were dead or defiled and therefore unfit as habitations of God. David writes in the following verses the need that existed in himself and in all of us until Jesus would come to open the Way to make a man a vessel, which had been uninhabitable, inhabitable.

"Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed;
I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids,
Until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob." Ps 132:3-5

In the beginning consider how God created things...

"For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

But man had defiled himself, he had defiled the place which was to be God's habitation... and now we will see this [now in some of us?] something new prophesied...

"Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men." Prov 8:30-31

How is it we become inhabitable instead of remaining uninhabitable but by the washing away of sin and being filled with the Living Word of God, so as to become a part of the Body of Christ, Jesus himself being the Head. We, you and I, are to be habitable or inhabitable parts of that Body... if we endure with Him to the end of our allotted time.

Consider the type or shadow of men on planet Earth. How much of our planet was easily habitable by men without special protection from the elements and with special work to obtain proper and sufficient places to work and to rest and food to eat?

What part of the planet is the undrinkable water of the oceans?

What part of the planet consists of dry waterless deserts?

What part of the planet consists of frozen waste [e,g, Antarctica]?

What inroads has man made to use some of that uninhabitable space into usable, habitable space?

This is the flesh and its work. What is the work of the Spirit in men?

Thank You Amadeus for taking the time to answer with such care. Still would disagree. Sounds too much of what man can do which is nothing.

 

[amadeus]

Thank You Amadeus for taking the time to answer with such care. Still would disagree. Sounds too much of what man can do which is nothing.

What man can do is choose God. If he does and continues to do that [always and without ceasing] with all that really such a choice entails, then there is no limit to what the man surrendered to God can do as there is nothing impossible for God:

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

The only limit is any limit that limits God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What man can do is choose God

John 15:16
[16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

That is all I’m saying. Yes, nothing is impossible for God. ‘For God.’ I’m sorry...I’m not disagreeing for the sake of disagreement but respect where you are coming from. But there is Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Why then make it something man does by man choosing to open the door...when God opened the door at Revelation 4:1-2
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 3:7-8
[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; [8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Revelation 1:18
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John 10:9
[9] I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

It seems pretty clear who opens and shuts the door that no man can open and no man can shut. “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth,...”

Again I’m sorry but it is a long time debate of does man make the first move in choosing to open the door and invite God in. for Paul on the road to Damascus...God choose. Not Paul. It was already decided (by God) what vessel Paul was to be in going to the Gentiles. Acts 9:13-16 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: [14] And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. [15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: [16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When did man lose dominion over himself?

When man is taken off the throne and God has dominion over Him. Man doesn’t have dominion over himself else that way leads to sin and death? Consider it Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

God rules, has dominion over man and he doesn’t fall. Man rules, has dominion and great is his fall. Submission ...how can that be when man claims still dominion over himself?? It is either or... God has dominion over man or man has dominion over man which in the garden led to sin and death. Do you have dominion over yourself?

Romans 7:1
[1] Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

 

[amadeus]

John 15:16
[16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Yes, we are chosen by Him, but we must also choose Him as per the Joshua 24:15 and also as per Genesis where Adam & Eve's choice was to obey or not to obey God.

That is all I’m saying. Yes, nothing is impossible for God. ‘For God.’ I’m sorry...I’m not disagreeing for the sake of disagreement but respect where you are coming from. But there is Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

So I am not certain why you posted that verse about the children. I am not sure I can explain it as you might like...

Does God elect everyone in advance to a definite end for each person that He has already determined without any choice at all on the part of each person? I do not believe so! I believe that He foreknew, but I do not believe that He predestined specifically for each person. But, don't expect me to prove what I only believe.

Are children elected to be chosen by God... or not... before they are born? How well, however, do we understand or can we understand God's purpose in even creating man in the first place? We could engage in a philosophical discussion on this, but what would that accomplish? Only God gives any increase that matters!

We either live by faith or we live by what we can figure out by some logical conclusion of our own finite carnal minds. The only things we can really know that matter, as I believe, is according to what God reveals to us as we trust Him. That is by faith indeed, and is only transferrable from one person to another when God is in the transfer and both parties are paying attention.

Why then make it something man does by man choosing to open the door...when God opened the door at Revelation 4:1-2
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

There are two doors and both must be open before a person can really approach God more closely. One is opened by Jesus. The other one is opened by us, the door into our own heart. We could not approach God at all if a Way was not opened for us. This is shown as being closed when Adam and Eve were placed outside the Garden of Eden with the flaming two edged sword guarding the entrance. Jesus is the Door. That sword is Jesus. That sword is the Word of God. Make it even more complicated or simple by saying the Tree of Life is also Jesus which is also the Word of God. It is very complex when we approach it with our minds, even for very smart [according to men] minds. It is very simple when God gives it us without regard for how smart men may believe that we are or that was are not.

Revelation 3:7-8
[7] And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; [8] I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Jesus opened that door when he died on the cross, but as no man can shut it also not just any man can walk through it. We need an invitation. That is the calling by God you mentioned, but not every person called answers and comes running to God. Some of those who do answer try to come running but neglect to obey what God's says to do in spite of what they know. Some don't bother to look into what God says about it and they also are not allowed to enter.

There is also a need for proper garments as explained in the parable written in Matt 22 before being allowed entrance. The proper garments are described by Apostle Paul in Eph 6:13ff.

I can say these things to you or others, but how many will argue or question rather than simply going to God about them. I don't make the rules and sometimes what I say may be wrong. What God says is never wrong, but as our now long missing friend @mjrhealth might say many people cannot be bothered to really ask Him. They presume when that more and deeper study will resolve any doubts giving them what they need.

For many things I have answers, I believe from God, or at least for the moment I may be content. If God sees that I need different answers and I keep going back to the lowest room [Luke 14:9] will not God provide them as well?

Revelation 1:18
[18] I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

John 10:9
[9] I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

It seems pretty clear who opens and shuts the door that no man can open and no man can shut. “he that hath the key of David, he that openeth,...”

Again I’m sorry but it is a long time debate of does man make the first move in choosing to open the door and invite God in. for Paul on the road to Damascus...God choose. Not Paul. It was already decided (by God) what vessel Paul was to be in going to the Gentiles. Acts 9:13-16 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: [14] And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. [15] But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: [16] For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

God makes the first move, but who will respond and how will they respond?

You don't believe that Paul chose God? Paul chose God long before the road to Damascus or there never would have been an encounter on the road to Damascus as I see it. Saul/Paul really loved or at least wanted to love God before he understood what that really meant. He was sincere as an active Pharisee doing the bidding of the Jewish leaders... but he did not yet understand what he was doing. He needed direction and God gave it to him probably in many places, but the one that stands out to us is on the road to Damascus.

I chose to follow God when I was a six year old being baptized in water in a Catholic Church. It was a long time before I began to knew what that meant for me. It was about 26 years after that baptism in water before God called me to the UPC... but He did.

Read about little Samuel. His mother dedicated him to God, but Samuel did not know God when she left him with Eli the disobedient high priests of Israel. Samuel had to be told by that old disobedient priest how to respond to God's call. His first message from God was to confirm to that same priest God's displeasure with the man.

Don't expect to have all the answers there all now. Expect only the answers that you really need when you need them. Let God determine what your needs are.

Give God the glory!

 

[amadeus]

When man is taken off the throne and God has dominion over Him. Man doesn’t have dominion over himself else that way leads to sin and death? Consider it Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

God rules, has dominion over man and he doesn’t fall. Man rules, has dominion and great is his fall. Submission ...how can that be when man claims still dominion over himself?? It is either or... God has dominion over man or man has dominion over man which in the garden led to sin and death. Do you have dominion over yourself?

Romans 7:1
[1] Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

What we should be doing as followers of Christ are not necessarily the same thing. Eventually as we grow in God and kill our beasts they should be the same.

The choices are always ours and may be wrong choices until we have completely overcome the little world of ourself:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

The world where those three things exist is not loose in the air of physical planet Earth, but rather within the vessels of each of us until they [our beasts] have by the wisdom of God [the Holy Spirit] in us have been finally and completely killed. This is really killing the "old man":

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We could engage in a philosophical discussion on this, but what would that accomplish? Only God gives any increase that matters!

You are right ...what would it accomplish? Only engaging in this discussion because of Acts 5:38-39
[38] And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [39] But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

As you I can only speak from what I’ve experienced and many times over my life...I choose God and invited Him into my heart. The choosing was of my own doing and my own timing, a work of man and it always, everytime ...came to nothing.

There are two doors and both must be open before a person can really approach God more closely. One is opened by Jesus. The other one is opened by us, the door into our own heart.

Not seeing two doors? Man’s heart and Jesus as the door? One door Jesus opens and the other door man opens? Man and God chooses? Dependent upon both? Then man does something to earn grace through acceptance where another did not accept? Am I understanding correctly?

 

[Enoch111]

Man’s heart and Jesus as the door? One door Jesus opens and the other door man opens?

This would be about right. Jesus said "I AM THE DOOR. By me if any man enter in he shall be saved". He also said "BEHOLD I STAND AT THE DOOR AND KNOCK..."

Getting back to the OP, why would any Christian even ask such a question? Christians believe on Christ because He is perfect in every way, and without believing that He is God, no man can be saved.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This would be about right. Jesus said "I AM THE DOOR. By me if any man enter in he shall be saved". He also said "BEHOLD I STAND AT THE DOOR AND KNOCK..."

Getting back to the OP, why would any Christian even ask such a question? Christians believe on Christ because He is perfect in every way, and without believing that He is God, no man can be saved.

Always heard that was Him standing outside of the church knocking. But I’ve also heard He knocks on the heart and man must open the door. The word says He who has the key of David opens the door NO MAN can open of his own will or NO MAN can shut of his own will but by HIM who has the keys. ‘Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.’ Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them . <so this is only if You first invite Him in and allow Him to give you a new heart.

John 1:13
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This “free will” of man’s dominion over man doesn’t work with John 1:13. It is GOD’s will be done. Not man’s. Yes He is perfect. That is why it is: man submits to God as Lord over all men and it is HIS dominion over man that gives life...not man’s dominion over man with “free will to choose”. Who has dominion over you? The Lord ...

or is it as Adam: man’s dominion over man? We don’t want Adam’s dominion that way leads to death. The dominion we want, all to serve and be ruled by, which is good is John 6:61-63
[61] When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? [62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? [63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

What and if you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the Spirit that quickens(gives life); the flesh profits nothing...does this offend you? That in His mention of ascending up where He was before; He says flesh doesn’t profit but Spirit profits all.

Man does not have dominion over man.
The Lord God Almighty has dominion over man and takes out the disobedient heart of Adam and puts a new heart in man and causes man to walk in God’s ways. With man it is impossible. With God all things are possible. Does this offend?

 

[amadeus]

You are right ...what would it accomplish? Only engaging in this discussion because of Acts 5:38-39
[38] And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [39] But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

As you I can only speak from what I’ve experienced and many times over my life...I choose God and invited Him into my heart. The choosing was of my own doing and my own timing, a work of man and it always, everytime ...came to nothing.

We do keep on seeking His face and as it gets clearer to us we are certainly blessed. And other people are likely used to improve our vision of Him so long as it is about Him and not us. Yes, we should aim to please God because that is what He wants us to do. We will be blessed by it but seeking a blessing for ourselves should never be our focal point.

Not seeing two doors? Man’s heart and Jesus as the door? One door Jesus opens and the other door man opens? Man and God chooses? Dependent upon both? Then man does something to earn grace through acceptance where another did not accept? Am I understanding correctly?

The Door thing can be complicated because He wants to come in so that we can made into a part of the Body of Christ, which is not in us alone, but we are, or are to be, separate parts of the whole thing. Consider these words from Jesus' prayer:

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one
in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." John 17:24

Upon reading those verses consider the difference between one who is and one who is not a part or to be a part of the Body of Christ.

That is what I see. He chooses and we choose. We can try to go into details but sometimes it can also get complicated. What I see is that God has spoke all of His Word before any of us were born. His Word results in blessings or cursings according to what we do or do not do. We can think of waiting for an answer to a prayer request, but God already spoke every possible answer to each and every possible situation. The answer is an interpretation or a current declaration of what He already spoke and therefore already knew.

 

[Enoch111]

Always heard that was Him standing outside of the church knocking. But I’ve also heard He knocks on the heart and man must open the door.

Knocking on a church's door would be meaningless if Christ was not knocking on the doors of the hearts of those inside. And Jesus says "If any MAN will open the door..." not "If the church will open the door".

The word says He who has the key of David opens the door NO MAN can open of his own will or NO MAN can shut of his own will but by HIM who has the keys.

You are attempting to introduce a Scripture which is unrelated to the matter under discussion. Do you even know what the key of David is?

‘Whom the Son sets free is free indeed.’

Yes. But that is only after one gets saved.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them . <so this is only if You first invite Him in and allow Him to give you a new heart.

Correct. This passage is about regeneration -- being born of the Spirit -- and that happens only after people repent and believe on Christ. And this confirms that the sinner must open the door of his heart and invite Christ in as Lord and Savior.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

after people repent and believe on Christ.

God does it. A man can’t even see his sin until the light comes on and God reveals it.

Correct. This passage is about regeneration -- being born of the Spirit -- and that happens only after people repent and believe on Christ. And this confirms that the sinner must open the door of his heart and invite Christ in as Lord and Savior.

The door is Christ and no man comes to the door that is open of Him who opens it unless God draws a man to the door. John 3:7-8 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. [8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
[26] For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called : [27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea , and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: [29] That no flesh should glory in his presence.

For God has chosen —NOT ALL—but the base things, the weak things. The door that is open is the door He opened hence the: He who has ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit says...

If you prefer to say you did something to earn grace over another instead of it being solely a choice of Him who calls...That is your choice. It is a far stretch though to make it about man’s choice so it fits God chooses all but then man decides. Paul said he wasted the church in the Jews religion and prospered but counted it all dung. AFTER God had given Paul the Revelation of Jesus and by it (the Revelation of Jesus Christ) Paul was taught not of men but of God.

Job 34:29-32
When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only: [30] That the hypocrite reign not, lest the people be ensnared. [31] Surely it is meet to be said unto God, I have borne chastisement , I will not offend any more : [32] That which I see not teach thou me: if I have done iniquity, I will do no more.


“That the hypocrite reign not, least the people be ensnared.” (Job 15:33-35) (Isaiah 9:17-18)

Galatians 5:22-23
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Ephesians 5:9-10
[9] (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth[10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

“Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.” What is acceptable to the Lord is that the Spirit of God rules in the heart of man. Not the heart of man which without Christ has always warred against God(Spirit). The Spirit of God has to have dominion ...otherwise the world to come would be no different than this world with man having dominion over man. It has to be Spirit over man. Fruit of the Spirit overcomes works of the flesh. Are you saying it was a work of flesh...or fruit of the Spirit of God who gives ears to hear. Man’s dominion is replaced by the Spirit of God dominion and all flourish and multiply by His fruit.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.