POLL: Was Jesus PERFECT?

[Dave L]

I don't know about "best" question. Simply answer one or more of the three questions I posed in post #84.

Here's post #84;

Is anyone confessing to be a follower of Christ to anything like Him or any of the original Apostles He appointed?

Hopefully some are on the approach, but whose job, again I ask you, is it to separate the tares from the wheat?

Are you a qualified reaper given that task by God now?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matt 13:30

None are like the Apostles who were the only Apostles. Especially the shysters claiming to be such today.

If people do not know whether they are among the tares or among the wheat, they are not among the wheat by any stretch.

 

[bbyrd009]

Souls as wheat or tares, God help us

So then you are universalist?

No, those are just Scripture Quotes? "...and not only ours, but the sins of the whole world"

 

[bbyrd009]

In that case none know except those who do not know that they know, which renders all in ignorance. What does it mean? No one knows!

Do you know?

Well, what you say first is not necessarily true based upon the Quote, which is apparently addressing those who say they know? So we would have to start over I guess.

I discovered quite by accident a couple of years ago that the Bible was likely written in a completely diff dialectic (or tongue) than I was reading it from, namely the Eastern, and I already knew that we in the west are raised on the Hegelian dialectic, or the reasoning method which causes us to write sentences like your first and third ones up there, which is quite normal for us, the standard even.

So imo the v is a direct reflection of that, and there are many more less direct ones once you start being aware of them I guess. As you think, so are you right, but most of us do not even know what "Hegelian" means, and after all Hegel was not a contemporary of Christ so that maybe clouds the issue a little, back then it was deemed "satan's dialectic," but I guess the point is basically "an implied winner and the rest losers in any social transaction"

fwiw this reasoning method is still quite a struggle for me, I have to edit like every post after proofreading etc

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm certain that tomorrow I may learn I've been wrong about some thing. Or things. Because I am certain I don't know everything today, and what I do know is incomplete. Yet I'm still willing to take a stand on what I do presently understand, or else how can we preach the gospel? How can we with conviction convince others that God is a God who can be known?
Nehushtan is not a reality for everyone.

Ok, what do you "presently understand" then?
One thing will do for now

and we can address this "preaching (arg) the gospel" and the "knowing God" later maybe ok

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm certain that tomorrow I may learn I've been wrong about some thing

man, I sure do not miss those days, not even a little bit. Thank you Father, that I no longer know jack lol. Everything I say or post is a lie, almost certainly probably

 

[bbyrd009]

Sin is a terminal disease and death is the only cure. I'm not looking to any snake for healing... Whatever consequences the are for past indiscretions I guess will have to be faced, or suffered. And we are in a fallen world so sorrow and pain is inevitable. Tomorrow though, according to promise, is another story

Ha ok "I'll make this determinist statement as if I know and then say I am not looking to Nehushtan in the very next sentence..."

I realize that you are not seeing a snake on a pole, and also that this prolly comes across as like an accusation, from me anyway, but pls understand that all that is just bc I am a jerk who has no patience and doesn't know how to talk ok, the snake on a pole is a universal thing, and if I were doing this right I would prolly be like patiently building a case based upon replies to questions or something.

But anyway I submit that Nehushtan is a reality for anyone who has not broken him up, including me prolly ok. Now I could ask the Qs but they would just be taken as further accusations, and you would not want to answer them, etc, bc they would make it obvious, but maybe suffice it to say for now that we pretty much all seek relief from symptoms?
And I guess also apparent is we all seek to be the winner?

imo confession is a perfect cure,
confession leads to salvation
Romans 10:10
although we read that as "profession" now I guess

 

[bbyrd009]

And we are in a fallen world so sorrow and pain is inevitable.

leave the world

Tomorrow though, according to promise, is another story

"tomorrow comes today"
the first return you get for that should work fine

 

[amadeus]

Thanks Dave for making the effort here to answer...

None are like the Apostles who were the only Apostles. Especially the shysters claiming to be such today.

Likely some people claiming to be something special with God or even to be Apostles are deceivers, but there really are some sincere men of God who are working hard at the job God gave them. They may be few, but don't lump those good ones in with the evil ones. My pastor gave his heart to God in 1936 [born in 1925] and has served God carefully and sincerely for most of his life. He has nothing worth anything so far as the world of men is concerned, but he is rich in the things of God. He'll be 94 this coming July. In spite of natural age and frailty he has three definite trips out of state in the service of God planned before his birthday. In April he will travel from Oklahoma to Birmingham, Alabama. In May he'll travel from Oklahoma to Des Moines, Iowa. In June he will be attending a Camp Meeting in Kentucky. For him, his service to God is his life. He has no natural family anymore since his wife died, but he goes on with God and I know that he will never stop while he is able. But... he would be considered a Pentecostal, one of those you would throw out because they do not fit into your pattern for men of God.

I am 75, 19 years younger than him, but I could not make those three trips as a single driver. It would be too much for me. It is too much for him in the physical but he refuses to quit. He refuses to retire from God's work.

If people do not know whether they are among the tares or among the wheat, they are not among the wheat by any stretch.

That is a judgment that is not yours to make. A person can know and serve God while knowing little about his neighbor. We may be able to see the outer front each person puts on, but how well can we know their hearts?

 

[Dave L]

Thanks Dave for making the effort here to answer...


Likely some people claiming to be something special with God or even to Apostles are deceivers, but there really are some sincere men of God who are working hard at the job God gave them. They may be few, but don't lump those good ones in the evil ones. My pastor gave his heart to God in 1936 [born in 1925] and has served God carefully and sincerely effectively for most of his life. He nothing worth anything so far as the world of men is concerned, but he is rich in the things of God. He'll be 94 this coming July. In spite of natural age and frailty he has three definite trips out of state in the service of God planned before his birthday. In April he will travel from Oklahoma to Birmingham, Alabama. In May he'll travel from Oklahoma to Des Moines, Iowa. In June he will be attending a Camp Meeting in Kentucky. For him, his service to God is his life. He has no natural family anymore since his wife died, but he goes on with God and I know that he will never stop while he is able. But... he would be considered a Pentecostal, one of those you would throw out because they do not fit into your pattern for men of God.

I am 75, 19 years younger than him, but I could not make those three trips as a single driver. It would be too much for me. It is too much for him in the physical but he refuses to quit. He refuses to retire from God's work.



That is a judgment that is not your to make. A person can know and serve God while knowing little about his neighbor. We may be able to the outer front each person puts on, but how well can we know their hearts?

We can know a lot depending on one's grasp of the truth, or their inability to grasp the truth.

 

[amadeus]

We can know a lot depending on one's grasp of the truth, or their inability to grasp the truth.

You are still not admitting the need for the Holy Spirit in a person to know anything at all... especially with regard to the things of God.

At one time many years ago I tried to go that way presuming that if I just read and studied the Bible long enough and hard enough I would or could become like Enoch or like Apostle Paul. That was my goal. It was impossible. I did this for years and then I backslid and did nothing at all purposely about God for about 10 years. When God drew me back to Him in 2002 He showed me the error of my ways and the impossibility of attaining what I had sought in the way that I had sought it.

 

[Dave L]

You are still not admitting the need for the Holy Spirit in a person to know anything at all... especially with regard to the things of God.

At one time many years ago I tried to go that way presuming that if I just read and studied the Bible long enough and hard enough I would or could become like Enoch or like Apostle Paul. That was my goal. It was impossible. I did this for years and then I backslid and did nothing at all purposely about God for about 10 years. When God drew me back to Him in 2002 He showed me the error of my ways and the impossibility of attaining what I had sought in the way that I had sought it.

Apart from the Holy Spirit we cannot read the bible and understand it. This is what I'm saying. These impostors do not have the Holy Spirit or they would not be getting rich on other people's miseries. And they would be in line with the rest of the church on crucial matters. They are phony to a man/woman.

 

[amadeus]

Apart from the Holy Spirit we cannot read the bible and understand it. This is what I'm saying.

With this part I do agree.

These impostors do not have the Holy Spirit or they would not be getting rich on other people's miseries. And they would be in line with the rest of the church on crucial matters. They are phony to a man/woman.

That there are imposters, I do not doubt. That we are likely to disagree on who they all are is for me a good reason to leave it alone generally while avoiding specifically any we believe to be dishonest. To arbitrarily call a particular group dishonest is not my call and I don't believe it should be yours, but I guess you must do what you believe is the right thing.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

Don’t know here ...the blind man could have seen anything or said anything but inspired by the Holy Spirit...when asked of the Lord what he sees it is “I see men as trees, walking.” We may also disagree at the blind man prevented or resisted the full healing so it took twice because of man’s interference. Man has no power unless it is given of God.

Zechariah 3:1
[1] And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord , and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Satan ‘standing at the right hand to resist him’ ...didn’t go so well for satan to resist...Psalm 109:30-31
[30] I will greatly praise the Lord with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude. [31] For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.

Someone on another post here said that Jesus never failed to do anything that He wanted to do, but this is not true. Consider this very well known verse:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Again assuming it is failure. We have the verses where God is not a respecter of persons. yet He chooses some and not others based solely off Gods Will and not any thing the person did to deserve either heaven or hell.

Right now our outward man perishes...but that is not the end...
2 Corinthians 4:16
[16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

2 Peter 3:9
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Colossians 2:21-22
[21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

 

[Dave L]

With this part I do agree.


That there are imposters, I do not doubt. That we are likely to disagree on who they all are is for me a good reason to leave it alone generally while avoiding specifically any we believe to be dishonest. To arbitrarily call a particular group dishonest is not my call and I don't believe it should be yours, but I guess you must do what you believe is the right thing.

They lie, some unknowingly up to a point, but this makes all of them dishonest.

 

[amadeus]

Don’t know here ...the blind man could have seen anything or said anything but inspired by the Holy Spirit...when asked of the Lord what he sees it is “I see men as trees, walking.” We may also disagree at the blind man prevented or resisted the full healing so it took twice because of man’s interference. Man has no power unless it is given of God.

Zechariah 3:1
[1] And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord , and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Satan ‘standing at the right hand to resist him’ ...didn’t go so well for satan to resist...Psalm 109:30-31
[30] I will greatly praise the Lord with my mouth; yea, I will praise him among the multitude. [31] For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.

People come to an altar, be it is a church building or in a car or at home, and yield to the Lord and experience for the first time in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So they are born from above for that first time and then they need to grow as even Jesus grew. How fast or how far they grow is up to them. The Holy Spirit, we say is from God or is God, but how limited is God? He is only limited by the limits He has put on Himself with regard to his creation, men.

For men were given dominion

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Gen 1:26

This dominion included the ability to go against God or to hinder God in certain things. This is where we see what men call "free will
. Can God overcome man's free will? Can God go against His own Word that He has spoken? I believe the scripture as I understand says, No. This is the limitation God has put upon Himself.

Man has been given abilities, but NOT the ability to alone become again like God. He was made very much like God in the beginning, as the above verse says, "...Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." but man in his disobedience defiled himself so that he moved away from that initial image, that initial likeness.

But then God sent Jesus so that we could again move toward God becoming in "our image" and in "our likeness". Man could do these things, but as it was in the beginning, man still had the dominion over himself. He could still move away from God even after being "born from above" [born again].

When man receives this new birth, he began to drink the blood of Jesus [the Holy Spirit? so as to be able to bring the flesh of Jesus he would consume to Life [the quickening]. Perhaps some [Stephen in Acts 7] move more quickly in the time available to a "face to face" vision of God and things of God. Others moving more slowly, even quenched or blocked the Holy Spirit in them hindering the work of God in them so they rather than seeing men clearly saw them as trees walking.

In the case of the man whose eyes Jesus touched twice, we are reading perhaps of a type or shadow of the real movement toward a "face to face" vision, in that the physical occurrence only gave us a idea as we read the scriptures of the difference between seeing only the "back parts" of God [Exo 33:23 and seeing His face.

Jesus certainly did heal the man's physical vision, but He did it in two steps as a type or shadow of the Way God can improve our vision. The vision of God is most important but the early vision is not to be as clear as the vision can become...!

Touch me again Lord!

Satan, as I see it, is working the left hand of God. It always our alternative. The attraction of that alternative will certainly remain with us until we have overcome the world as Jesus overcame the world... that is, if we ever do. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit in us is that a possibility. If we are regularly quenching the Holy Spirit and/or failing to eat the flesh of Jesus the overcoming work of God in us will hindered or even stopped. Does make one think about the importance of NOT blaspheming the Holy Spirit and perhaps Jesus put special emphasis on it... [Matt 12:31-32]

Again assuming it is failure. We have the verses where God is not a respecter of persons. yet He chooses some and not others based solely off Gods Will and not any thing the person did to deserve either heaven or hell.

Right now our outward man perishes...but that is not the end...
2 Corinthians 4:16
[16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

2 Peter 3:9
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Colossians 2:21-22
[21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not; [22] Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Jesus healed the ones whose hearts were open to healing when the time was right according the God's plan. Jesus never failed to heal anyone He tried to heal, but He did not try to heal everyone.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1

"A time to kill, and a time to heal..." Ecc 3:3

No, God is not a respecter of persons, but people will read discrimination into the fact that Jesus healed some but left others alone. That is man's comparison and a very unfair one by someone that does NOT know everything about everybody. God spoke His Word [if that is a correct description] before the foundation of every world of man. Remember what Isaiah wrote about it?

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

God's Word did not miss a thing. Every action or word or step or mis-step or reaction or lack thereof by any man was immediately subject to Word of God with blessing or curses as was appropriate. The written when man understand is [by means of the Holy Spirit] tells man how to do it right and lets him know the consequences if he does it wrong.

Why was it that King David pleased God, but King Saul was rejected by God? The reaction of God was according to what was in the heart of each man. There was no discrimination. God knew exactly what He gave to each man and the reward/punishment for each man was according to what the man did with what he had been given. David gave us a picture of the ways of a man perfect in the eyes God in response to his own errors. Both David and Saul made mistakes but former was always repentant and will to take his medicine, punishment or chastisement. The latter, Saul rather tried to blame someone else [the people or his son] and/or to justify himself. The heart of each was always clear to God... Even so it is with each and every person born to woman on planet Earth.

The whole life of Jesus as told in the 4 gospels has meaning for us, if and when we are able to understand. He always did things God's way in every depicted instance written.

 

[amadeus]

They lie, some unknowingly up to a point, but this makes all of them dishonest.

It is also written in scriptures that "...every man is a liar...". That means you or me as well when we speak a word we believe is true, but it is wrong. All of these thousands of denominations and believers have some errors, which when they speak them aloud to others, God would call lies. I have done it. You have done it. We all have done it. We all have been dishonest even if it was in ignorance. When our ignorance is corrected, should we not thank God for that?

 

[Harvest 1874]

The question was asked, was Jesus perfect?

Yes and No

Let us see what the Scriptures have to say on this matter. In Matthew Chapter 19 verses 16 and 17 we read:

“Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” So He said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Is it possible that our perfect Lord was not good when we have the record that He went about doing good?

What about Adam was he not created perfect prior to his fall?

In the Genesis account (Gen 1:31) we read that at the completion of the sixth day shortly after the creation of Adam the LORD looked over all that he had made and declared it “very good”. Adam was born of God, created by the hand of God, and thus was created a perfect being. Our Lord likewise "proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:42) thus he too was created a perfect being.

Deuteronomy tells us that all His works are perfect, so we would understand that all perfect things may be called good.

So our Lord Jesus as a human being was perfect and thus could be called good, however at the time in which he was addressed by the rich young man as Good Master he had only just recently consecrated himself (his human life to death), and therefore was no longer to be recognized as in the flesh, a human being, but was in the process of developing the new creature in him, and from this stand-point He was not good, for we read in Heb 2:10:

"For it became him (the Father) for whom are all things, and by Whom are all things in bringing many sons unto glory to make the captain of their salvation (our Lord Jesus Christ) perfect through sufferings."

So in essence our Lord was in developing stages of the new creature, it, the new creature in him had not yet reached perfection. This would not take place until he had thoroughly completed his sacrifice in death.

So to be good (perfect) from the standpoint of spiritual things is impossible on this side of the vail and with us it is impossible from any standpoint except a reckoned one.

Another way of looking at this is illustrated in the Tabernacle picture.

A square, because all its four angles and four sides are equal, is the symbol for “perfection.” Thus in the Tabernacle the Most Holy— represents “perfection.”

By the same token, a rectangle cannot represent “perfection” because although all its angles are equal, its sides are not. It must therefore represent an “imperfect” or “in part” condition, the “perfect” not yet having been attained (See 1 Cor 13:10). For example, the Court condition, which represents justification for the “saint” traveling east to west, is not the ultimate to be attained. The Court itself is a rectangle, not a square. The “saint” next enters the “Holy” which, for him, is the spirit-begotten condition of sanctification. Nor is this yet the ultimate, for the “Holy” is not a square either, but like the Court is also a rectangle. Both the Court and the Holy are “in part” conditions. It is only after the “saint” has passed the “second vail” and entered into the “Most Holy” that he really attains the ultimate condition of glory, honor and immortality—the divine nature. Then that which is “perfect” will have come and that which has been “in part” will be done away.

Our Lord Jesus when in the flesh was indeed perfect, but when he had fully consecrated himself, the flesh was no longer considered, it was the new creature in him that the Father thenceforth recognized, however this new creature was not yet fully developed, it was still in the “imperfect” or “in part” condition not yet perfected, that would require sufferings, trials, testings.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

For men were given dominion

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Gen 1:26

This dominion included the ability to go against God or to hinder God in certain things. This is where we see what men call "free will

Man (Adam) was given dominion yes. But Adam (man’s) dominion was taken away from man? It is no more man’s labour and fruit but the fruit of the Spirit which remains. God’s work. The works of man and the labour of man’s hands are burned (perishes) and comes to nothing. It is the Spirit who has Dominion. Christ as Lord over all. It is no longer Adam who has Dominion but Christ.
Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Does man think he has Dominion. Or does he? Does man keep the Dominion passed from Adam to subdue all. When it is God that subdues all?
Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

God’s will be done. Not man’s. God’s Dominion. Not man’s. In earth as it is in heaven. In heaven God has dominion not man. Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Daniel 4:25
[25] That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.


Whose dominion is it? Who subdues? Does man still retain the dominion given to Adam to subdue?

 

[brakelite]

Man (Adam) was given dominion yes. But Adam (man’s) dominion was taken away from man? It is no more man’s labour and fruit but the fruit of the Spirit which remains. God’s work. The works of man and the labour of man’s hands are burned (perishes) and comes to nothing. It is the Spirit who has Dominion. Christ as Lord over all. It is no longer Adam who has Dominion but Christ.
Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Does man think he has Dominion. Or does he? Does man keep the Dominion passed from Adam to subdue all. When it is God that subdues all?
Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

God’s will be done. Not man’s. God’s Dominion. Not man’s. In earth as it is in heaven. In heaven God has dominion not man. Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Daniel 4:25
[25] That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.


Whose dominion is it? Who subdues? Does man still retain the dominion given to Adam to subdue?

Adam gave dominion to Satan, the Prince of this world. Jesus took it back at Calvary. The Meek will inherit the earth after the new creation.

 

[brakelite]

Ha ok "I'll make this determinist statement as if I know and then say I am not looking to Nehushtan in tea very next sentence..."

Some things surely we can be certain about... Deterministic if you will. One of those things being that sin brings death... Apart from the numerous animals sacrificed because of man's inability to, or unwillingness to give up sin, that man dies, and most importantly of the wages of sin want death, then Jesus need not have died. Our understanding of why sin brings forth death is maybe lacking, but not the fact that death is the inevitable destiny for mankind. Except for divine intervention