[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Hi Justin,
Hi DF,
I do think it is important to defend the truth and the truth is that God does not have an issue with polygamy and neither should we.
Adam disobeyed the only negative commandment God had given him, and for that, he and Eve lost their right to eat of the tree of life. Having cursed the ground for Adam's sake, God didn't 'have an issue' with them? When their descendants filled the earth with evil continually, God sent a flood to destroy all but eight people..... but He didn't 'have an issue' with them? Please start taking all the facts into your considerations. :huh:[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] [/background]
When Paul says, 'will not inherit the kingdom of God', it is because God still has an issue with sin.[/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] [/background][/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [/background][/background]
Christians should have no expectation of taking several wives. It
is a salvation issue according to Paul, because we have God's law in our hearts, and the Holy Spirit to enable us to overcome temptation and sin.
I gave as a proof text
Matthew 22:32 which scripturally proves that God accepts polygamists because two of the three people with God at this present time had more than one wife. Nowhere in scripture did either of these men repent for their lifestyle.
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]I acknowledge the text you offered as a 'proof text', which statement was made by Jesus in the context of the Old Covenant. But d[/background]o you realise that not *Abraham, Isaac nor Jacob* lived under the Old Covenant? They were the tenth, eleventh and twelfth generations after the Flood.
Noah's sons were still alive. The total destruction of the 'old world' was still fresh in the minds of those who'd experienced it.
They understood God's judgment in action.
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]In other words, you can't use what Jesus said, to justify polygamy amongst God's people. Jesus was reminding his listeners that those *three men* had both believed Him, and, obeyed His voice.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Regarding repentance, Abraham had sent away Hagar and Ishmael, and, all the sons of his concubines. Wasn't that 'fruit worthy of repentance', as John the Baptist used to put it, [/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]'for' his 'lifestyle'[/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]? Genesis 21:14 [/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Abraham didn't take a second wife until after Sarah had died. I always thought he'd sent his concubines away too, but Genesis 25:6 doesn't say that clearly, and perhaps they were now older - passed child-bearing age - and he had a duty of care to them. Again, Abraham obeyed God's voice. It likely was a difficult thing to do -
to send away all but one son.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws[/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)].[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Interestingly, Jacob, despite his love for the idolatress, Rachel, seems to have known that the blessing of Abraham would come through Judah, who was the last son of his first wife, Leah. Genesis 49:8 - 12.[/background]
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It is important that we not lay more upon Christians or those who would be Christians more than what God does. James the brother of Jesus understood this principle and applied it the gentiles that Paul was ministering to.
I agree. But, let it be God who lays His will upon the conscience of the newly-converted polygamist, and not a humanist.
Under the Old Covenant, there were regulations for how to take and how to dispose of a wife. The same laws which acknowledged polygamy, also provided for divorce. Only in one case (that I can remember), was a man not permitted to divorce. Nevertheless anyway, it is not in God's heart to have more than one wife at a time. Had death not been brought into existence on earth, perhaps we would not be having this discussion.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]There was a cosmic shift in God's dealings with mankind because of the cross, which affects even whether to marry or not:[/background][/background] [/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] [/background][/background]
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Matthew 19: 11 But he said to them, All [men] cannot receive this saying, save [they] to whom it is given. 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].[/background][/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Look at the disciples' reaction when Jesus introduced tighter regulations on divorce:[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Matthew 19:9 And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoso marries her which is put away does commit adultery. 10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with [his] wife, it is not good to marry.[/background]
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Jesus does not approve of sin for He said, "Go and sin no more." However, He also does not like hypocrisy, i.e. those who judge people who themselves are just as guilty. Plus, DF, Jesus said neither do I judge you. I hope you read what I wrote because I said my purpose was not to defend polygamy as right or wrong but to draw attention to the principle that we should not take up stones (which in our day and age are thankfully words and shunning) against those whom we disagree with without carefully considering what we are doing. That is my point in relationship to polygamy.
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]No-one is suggesting that we stone polygamists. Paul said:[/background][/background][/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 1 Timothy 6:3[/background][/background][/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]I feel you are taking judging out of context - unless you are making this personal to you again? John 12:48 [/background]
Men who have received the Holy Spirit, who are in Romans 12:1, 2, should find themselves in agreement with Christ about everthing, including adultery.
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Jesus said 'By their fruits you shall know them'. [/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]We can be sure that Paul accepts Jesus' definition of adultery when he makes his comments in 1 Corinthians 5 about Christian brethren in sin, and, 1 Corinthians 6 about not inheriting the kingdom of God.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Jesus had defended Moses for permitting divorce, because He knew what was in men's hearts. Divorce was not a salvation issue then, and divorce is not a salvation issue now, although much teaching in today's church would make those who have legitimate grounds for divorce feel as if it is a salvation issue. But, in the context of not lusting after a second wife, [/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]adultery is a salvation issue, just as fornication and the other sins listed, which Christians should resist. There can be no second wife for the married Christian, while he is in wedlock with his first wife.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]I fully understand that in evangelism, polygamy is not the first issue. But [/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]I believe God can lead a new believer to understand how he is to provide for the women with whom he can no longer have sexual relationships. [/background]
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[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]If he has entered several marriages through contracts - as Israelites used to do - there is also a way that he can end his marriages with all but one. A man who can afford several wives, can also afford to give them the terms of their contract of marriage with him, upon their divorce. [/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]These decisions must surely be made easier if some of a polygamist's wives become Christians, too; because the Holy Spirit will give grace to those who must leave as much as to the one who must stay.
The point that Rex makes about obedience, is increasing in validity the longer this thread goes on:[/background]
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Genesis 22:18b '... because thou hast obeyed my voice.' John 10:1 - 4.[/background]
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Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and also the Holy Ghost, whom God has given to them that obey him.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]What makes us sons, before we have received the Holy Spirit? I think it may be obedience.[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Hebrews 12:9b '... shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live?[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. [/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not. [/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus said to them, Verily I say to you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
Likewise:
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath [wrath = unbelief], even as others.
Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known [/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]to all nations for the obedience of faith[/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)].[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: 31 Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he has raised him from the dead[/background][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)].[/background]
[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]1 Corinthians 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them without signification.[/background]
There is only one voice John 10:14 - of the good Shepherd - which can lead us safely into eternal life. 1 Timothy 6:7
Justin, if you are genuinely defending
truth, it will line up perfectly with
all the words of Jesus Christ. Matt 7:24
The Father sent the Holy Spirit so that we would be able to
begin to see His things His way. John 3:3, 5.
If you are honest, you have to admit that a married man who then starts looking at any other woman for the purpose of having a sexual relationship with her,
has committed adultery against his spouse. Matt 5:28