Pope endorses same sex civil unions in new documentary film.

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Josho

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I seen the article elsewhere on here. The important thing to note is that this is an opinion of the Pope, he is not changing Catholic teaching which is against homosexuality. In this interview the Pope only represents himself as this article states:

Is the Catholic Church changing its approach to marriage? Francis’ views on legal civil unions—which he previously expressed while archbishop of Buenos Aires—differ from those of previous popes, but he hasn’t changed Catholic doctrine that marriage is between one man and one woman.

Pope reiterates support for civil unions

and

Vatican backs Biblical view of gender

The problem the Pope needs to stop doing things like this, he forgets himself

Well whatever happens, what God teaches remains solid.

I hope the Pope does not change the teaching of the Catholic denomination though.

But if he does, since there is a real possibility, would there be a split in the Catholic denomination who disagree with any new teaching?

I believe other denominations have split over this issue before.
 

dev553344

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Who is saying that homosexuals should be denied the basic freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights? I haven't heard anyone on this forum saying this.

That is only true if homosexuality is legal. People that commit crimes lose rights. But I think the law should intervene in homosexual relationships if it is going to intervene in Christian marriages. I mean, the law is generic and in a small way patterned after 0BC Rome.

Yet I still don't like the term "civil union".
 

Prayer Warrior

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That is only true if homosexuality is legal. People that commit crimes lose rights. But I think the law should intervene in homosexual relationships if it is going to intervene in Christian marriages. I mean, the law is generic and in a small way patterned after 0BC Rome.

Yet I still don't like the term "civil union".
When was the last time someone was arrested for homosexual behavior between consenting adults? This is a nonissue.
 

dev553344

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Like I said, it's a nonissue, but it is mentioned as though this were happening. This is a logical fallacy--straw man, I think.

I don't think it's totally a fallacy, I mean the Pope is over the entire earth for the church, and homosexuality is still punishable by death in some of his areas. But yeah you're right doesn't currently apply to the USA.
 

Prayer Warrior

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I don't think it's totally a fallacy, I mean the Pope is over the entire earth for the church, and homosexuality is still punishable by death in some of his areas.
Yeah, it is in some Muslim and Communist countries.

I assumed that the poster who mentioned this is an American.
 
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Philip James

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But, @Philip James if people are LITERALLY eating His physical body, he wouldn't have any left to eat.... Or do you believe that His body regenerates after each Mass...? :confused:

Hi PW,

We don't receive bits and pieces of Jesus.
We receive the risen Christ, whole and entire, the Groom giving Himself to His bride, and she receiving Him..
The two made one flesh..

This is a great mystery, but I speak of Christ and His Church

Peace be with you!

 

dev553344

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Hi PW,

We don't receive bits and pieces of Jesus.
We receive the risen Christ, whole and entire, the Groom giving Himself to His bride, and she receiving Him..
The two made one flesh..

This is a great mystery, but I speak of Christ and His Church

Peace be with you!


I see what your saying, could be spiritual and then by miracle turned into Holy Body to heal my body of it's infirmities. That could be the case.
 

Prayer Warrior

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Hi PW,

We don't receive bits and pieces of Jesus.
We receive the risen Christ, whole and entire, the Groom giving Himself to His bride, and she receiving Him..
The two made one flesh..

This is a great mystery, but I speak of Christ and His Church

Peace be with you!

The groom gave Himself on the cross once and for all.

The mystery Paul is talking about in Ephesians 5 compares our oneness with Christ to a husband and wife being joined in marriage. The husband and wife are married once and consummate that marriage, and the two become one flesh at the moment of consummation. Becoming one is not an ongoing process.

Therefore, Jesus said, "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” (Mark 10:7-9).
.
 
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JohnDB

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From what friends are saying...
This Pope is a bad pope...not iligitimate but bad. (Not exactly sure how that works)

This pronouncement was designed to excommunicate certain factions within the church that they feel are destructive to the church. (By claiming that the current pope is iligitimate or just disagreeing with him)

They know that a cleaning period is necessary...it's going to hurt in many ways but the conservative Catholics are looking to "Clean House" so to speak.
They know that they are going to lose people along the way but they would rather be right than popular for the long term existence of the church.
 
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Philip James

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The groom gave Himself on the cross once and for all.

The mystery Paul is talking about in Ephesians 5 compares our oneness with Christ to a husband and wife being joined in marriage. The husband and wife are married once and consummate that marriage, and the two become one flesh at the moment of consummation. Becoming one is not an ongoing process.

Therefore, Jesus said, "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” (Mark 10:7-9).
.

Indeed, the union of a man and woman is the image of the union of Christ and His Church.

But it would be a cold marriage indeed, should the bride never again receive her Husband !

Peace!
 

bukka

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If those Catholics who disagree with the Pope's statement, calling him a heretic and saying the Pope should not be believed or followed in this, doesn't this make these dissenters in effect Protestants?

It would seem that they are protesting the Pope's teaching authority in a manner that reflects the early years of the Reformation when the ex-Catholics were leaving that magisterial authority and moving into something new. Many of these supposed conservative Catholics are actually Protestants of the Old Catholic sect variety. They seem to have the patina of Catholicism but have left it for a Mary-centered liturgical religious cult.

I think that behind Pope Francis' statements is that he is thinking about the Catholic church's teaching on conscience. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, numbers 1777-1782.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

1777 Moral conscience,48 present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.49 It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.
1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise.... [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.50

1779 It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience. This requirement of interiority is all the more necessary as life often distracts us from any reflection, self-examination or introspection:

Return to your conscience, question it.... Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness.51

1780 The dignity of the human person implies and requires uprightness of moral conscience. Conscience includes the perception of the principles of morality (synderesis); their application in the given circumstances by practical discernment of reasons and goods; and finally judgment about concrete acts yet to be performed or already performed. the truth about the moral good, stated in the law of reason, is recognized practically and concretely by the prudent judgment of conscience. We call that man prudent who chooses in conformity with this judgment.
1781 Conscience enables one to assume responsibility for the acts performed. If man commits evil, the just judgment of conscience can remain within him as the witness to the universal truth of the good, at the same time as the evil of his particular choice. the verdict of the judgment of conscience remains a pledge of hope and mercy. In attesting to the fault committed, it calls to mind the forgiveness that must be asked, the good that must still be practiced, and the virtue that must be constantly cultivated with the grace of God:

We shall . . . reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.52

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."53


I think that the crux of this issue is as follows: Pope Francis is sensitive to religious freedom and the conscience. I think that his idea of an acceptance of civil unions for homosexuals has its roots in the basis of the Catholic teaching regarding conscience, and that matters which involve disputes concerning conscience which have especial weight. I doubt that the Pope is really seriously questioning his church's teaching about marriage as only being between one man and one woman. I think that, ultimately, he is concerned about religious and civil freedom for homosexuals. I think that he views civil unions as civil legal contracts merely and not as marriage in the ecclesiastical sense.
 
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Marymog

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I think that the crux of this issue is as follows: Pope Francis is sensitive to religious freedom and the conscience. I think that his idea of an acceptance of civil unions for homosexuals has its roots in the basis of the Catholic teaching regarding conscience, and that matters which involve disputes concerning conscience which have especial weight. I doubt that the Pope is really seriously questioning his church's teaching about marriage as only being between one man and one woman. I think that, ultimately, he is concerned about religious and civil freedom for homosexuals. I think that he views civil unions as civil legal contracts merely and not as marriage in the ecclesiastical sense.
Very well put. I can see how one would come to that conclusion. Thank you for that insight.

Respectfully, Mary
 

Nancy

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I realize I run the risk of being tarred and feathered for what I'm about to say, but here it goes. I've given this story some thought and I'd like to opine. Speaking as a Christian, I believe homosexuality is a sin, but it is not the only sexual sin people commit against God (adultery, fornication, lust). However, I don't fixate on homosexuality and I don't treat homosexuals with contempt either. If I meet a gay person, then I will treat them with kindness and respect, as I would like for them to treat me. I believe the Golden Rule applies to everyone, regardless of who they are.

Speaking as a Christian and as an American, I don't believe homosexuals should be denied civil rights and equality. I don't believe straight people who commit adultery or fornication should be denied civil rights or equality because of their sexual sins either. I believe that everyone (regardless of their sins, race, age, gender, religion, sexual orientation) should be protected under federal and state laws. I don't believe heterosexuals who also commit sexual sins should be denied protection under federal and state laws, so why should I firmly oppose homosexuals receiving the same protection under these laws? I've sinned against God myself and I don't want to be denied civil rights and equality based on my sins against God.

I certainly value my freedom as an American citizen. I don't know what to say about the Pope's endorsement of same-sex civil unions in regards to Catholic teaching or the impact it will have on the Catholic Church, but I understand his compassionate sentiment toward homosexuals.

Now, that deserves a "follow" 7!
 

Taken

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Pope endorses same sex civil unions in new documentary film.
OP ^

Same Gender Partnerships established by Civil Authorities, in A Civil setting have been around for eons. Petitioning for rights per those partnerships is not a new phenomenon.

What is disturbing with the Pope is his appearance to be catering to SEX, SEX, SEX, affirmation between the same genders.

He is the Catholic Churches Head Representative... and Advocating, or perpetuating the Appearance of Condoning SEX between the same genders is highly suspect of a man who has spent 62 years, in nearly the exclusive company of men.

It is not a Secret people become involved and dedicated to their own personal passions, for personal benefit.

"homoSEXuals deserve the right to be part family" [Pope Francis quote; 10-21-2020 Source: National Public Radio]

Huh??? Gender, Sex, Laws...do not prohibit people from being part of a family!

Weird!

It appears this man (pope) has had untraditional Christian ideas for quite some time...and has been established with a BIG MiC, and is making the most of his Position.
 

Nancy

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But, @Philip James if people are LITERALLY eating His physical body, he wouldn't have any left to eat.... Or do you believe that His body regenerates after each Mass...? :confused:

We are to eat His WORD...His Words are life. And His blood is the atonement for our sins and we must never above all, forget that.
He is already present in our hearts. He left us with The Holy Spirit, not alone! So, He is already present.

"My son, pay attention to what I say; turn your ear to my words"
Do not let them out of your sight, keep them within your heart;
for they are life to those who find them and health to one's whole body."
Proverbs 4:20-22

Exodus 16:15
"And when the children of Israel saw [it], they said one to another, It [is] manna: for they wist not what it [was]. And Moses said unto them, This [is] the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat."

John 6:63
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life."

"I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst." John 6:35

Of course, this is just how I personally see it...not saying I'm correct in all things but, until and unless He opens my eyes differently, this is where I stand on the True Bread Of Life .
Amen! :)
 

WaterSong

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Not at all surprised really. This pope is radical compared to his predecessors.
The good thing about his personal opinion is that it has no effect on church doctrine.