Post your favorite UR verse for inspection

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Charlie24

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This one differentiates between "all people" and "those who believe." (currently)
Stating that "the living God" is "the Savior of all people". (and especially those who believe)

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

I've already explained this but I think it was on the other thread just before I started this thread but I'll explain it again.

God is the Saviour of all men because there is no other Saviour.

Every person in the world will have to come to Him through Christ, He stands alone as the only way, therefore He is the Saviour of all men.

"Especially of those who believe" is laying down the condition of salvation.

God is not the Saviour of all me as the UR interprets this verse. There is a condition to be met in order for him to be your Saviour.

The UR picks out this verse and completely ignores the condition of Salvation which is to believe.
 

Charlie24

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Hello Charlie, was just wondering about the question that I asked but it’s okay if you don’t wanna answer it.

I believe the whole world has been indeed reconciled to God; so please just ask me questions rather than assumptions.

The sin of mankind was for once and since the resurrection the cross and the resurrection have been made known; to those who are not unlearned, to decide to either become part of the Heavenly kingdom or to stay out of it for no desire for God.












Also I’m not so sure how much we really know about the heavenly realm, or the lake of fire to make definite stances, we can ponder and wonders and decide for ourselves between oneself and God.

John suggests to me people living outside the kingdom in my opinion but others differ greatly and that is understandable, best to allow them to let God work on their hearts and minds cause I can not.

The world cannot be reconciled to Him until the resurrection, although He is reconciling man one at a time.

How hard is this to understand? I've shown it to you in Scripture. I guess it's just not what you want and just won't accept!
 

Patrick1966

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Hello Charlie, was just wondering about the question that I asked but it’s okay if you don’t wanna answer it.

I believe the whole world has been indeed reconciled to God; so please just ask me questions rather than assumptions.

The sin of mankind was for once and since the resurrection the cross and the resurrection have been made known; to those who are not unlearned, to decide to either become part of the Heavenly kingdom or to stay out of it for no desire for God.












Also I’m not so sure how much we really know about the heavenly realm, or the lake of fire to make definite stances, we can ponder and wonders and decide for ourselves between oneself and God.

John suggests to me people living outside the kingdom in my opinion but others differ greatly and that is understandable, best to allow them to let God work on their hearts and minds cause I can not.

Sharing scripture with Charlie is a fruitless endeavor.
 

MatthewG

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The world cannot be reconciled to Him until the resurrection, although He is reconciling man one at a time.

How hard is this to understand? I've shown it to you in Scripture. I guess it's just not what you want and just won't accept!

It is what the scripture attributes in to the world being reconciled unto himself, but the question is, how?

By standard the law of Moses was intact while Mary and Joseph were together before the upcoming event of the Son of God being born in the flesh.

Then the Lord had to live under this law, the law had a set system established for them to be used, in was slaughtering of the animals and offering them up to God, but there were also others. The system was that the blood would be brought into the temple of the holy of Holies to see if the offer of blood was accepted in which the person who went in, came back out then the offering was justified and sins were forgiven for one more year.

There was an appearing of also God visiting in the holy of Holies they also would know which would be also a significance of the blood to be accepted.

You having a going in, offering, waiting, accepting, and bring forth the new because you didn’t die in the holy of Holies that your sins are forgiven.

There is this picture of how the earthly temple, also did house a place for God to visit his people in that Instance which is every person to those people whom worshiped Yahweh with all their heart, did a lot of the commandments out of love for God and others, in faith of Gods law being just and right. There was a separation though, here with the old temple, a place where the earth (in which was the land of Jerusalem) and where (heaven consider God came down to the temple), met.

Until the time of the temple being destroyed; there was no verification that a new heaven and earth and came about; with the coming of the Lord to the lost sheep of Israel. This promise of God divorcing the former covenant that he had made now with the promise of the deliverance of his Word, to fulfill the law which had separating all the Jewish people from the rest of the world, in which messiah would become king, over those ordinances which were before but are now taken away with the new covenant being established; today people do live in a new heaven a new earth, it is one where you are not required to do religious duties, or assigned tickets of a church, it is a heaven and earth where God in control, and the Lord Jesus Christ as king of kings and lord of lords. And the devil is defeated, with darkness still existing in the hearts and minds of people to do evil intentions to others, and I believe there are worldly spiritual powers that effect individuals to have “spirit of hatred,”
“Spirit of maliciousness”, “spirit of greed”.

This a world where there is no separation from God and all have access to him, be it through the creation and seeing that there is something bigger than oneself, or discovering off seeing a chik tract, or message someone may be spreading about God or the Lord.

God interacts with the world in many ways, to be seen first is the creation, next is the law, next is the Old Testament prophets, next is the Messiah, next is the Apostles and of course by the holy spirit (leading toward Gods will being done by Christ through you).

And all because of the sin that Jesus paid; he took all their sin away; even though they may choose to sinful willfully against the truth and God gives them over to their own desires; but those who see Jesus as their king, will seek to live by a higher standard which is Christ lead and focused, with prayers to the Father for help with the spirit.

Becoming part of the kingdom, and building their spiritual body up for the next realm, building up and storing up heavenly treasures, and being rewarded upon the entrance to heaven.

It seems silly to me, that considering Jesus rose from the dead; that the resurrection will never happen; and the happening in my opinion is judgment at death with reward awaiting and I don’t know what that is gonna feel like, but Jesus had to feel the death and weight of our sin on him.
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
So, rational discussion is sidelining?
While preferring irrational interpretation?
It's second guessing God! Such nonsense as "would a loving God torture man forever" is not rational behavior,
Like a conversation with the doctor who is about to amputate your leg, I suppose.
Will this hurt?, you ask. To which the doctor replies, "Don't you trust me?"
You call that "rational discussion?" I call it stupidity! All of your reasoning will not change what God has said.
And all your whitewashing won't change the fact that you are claiming a loving God will "torture man forever".
Hard to escape the rational conclusion in the message that you are proclaiming.

This is the cognitive dissonance referred to earlier. We all live with it. Me too.
I believe God still heals people today, but not everyone I pray for receives healing. Why?
All I know for sure is that 100% of the people I don't pray for don't receive the healing I intended for them.
So, do I toss in towel because the success rate isn't what I hoped for, our continue and hope for the best?

I own my cognitive dissonance, and you can own yours too.
 

Chadrho

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God is the Saviour of all men because there is no other Saviour.

Every person in the world will have to come to Him through Christ, He stands alone as the only way, therefore He is the Saviour of all men.

"Especially of those who believe" is laying down the condition of salvation

That makes no sense.

He can't be the savior of all unless he saves all.

Your reading is like saying, "Chadrho is the janitor of all buildings, especially of the ones he cleans." If Chadrho doesn't clean all buildings, he's not the janitor of all buildings.

What is needed is an identification of what is peculiar to believers. It's not salvation since he is the savior of all. Hint: belief.
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
This one differentiates between "all people" and "those who believe." (currently)
Stating that "the living God" is "the Savior of all people". (and especially those who believe)

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
I've already explained this but I think it was on the other thread just before I started this thread but I'll explain it again.

God is the Saviour of all men because there is no other Saviour.

Every person in the world will have to come to Him through Christ, He stands alone as the only way, therefore He is the Saviour of all men.
Your doctrine dictates that this can't possibly mean what it plainly says. And for that reason alone.
How can God be the Savior of all people if salvation is dependent on an act of our will?
The Savior of "all" people is off the table if it only applies to some.
"Especially of those who believe" is laying down the condition of salvation.

God is not the Saviour of all me as the UR interprets this verse. There is a condition to be met in order for him to be your Saviour.
The word "especially" indicates a subset of "all". (obviously)
We want "all" our friends to be at your birthday party, and "especially" you, birthday boy.
The UR picks out this verse and completely ignores the condition of Salvation which is to believe.
Conditional Atonement?
God's will for all of humankind dependent on our decision?
Not the way I understand it.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
 

St. SteVen

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Sharing scripture with Charlie is a fruitless endeavor.
Certainly seems so.
My hope and prayer for Charlie is that he will learn that there is more than one way to look at these things.

I have learned that if someone has a biblical defense for what they believe, then it is a biblical belief.
And I don't have to agree with them to recognize and respect them for making the effort to work it out.

What I don't like is the mindless doctrine parroting that we see so much of. Zero respect for that.
 
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Charlie24

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St. SteVen said:
So, rational discussion is sidelining?
While preferring irrational interpretation?

Like a conversation with the doctor who is about to amputate your leg, I suppose.
Will this hurt?, you ask. To which the doctor replies, "Don't you trust me?"

And all your whitewashing won't change the fact that you are claiming a loving God will "torture man forever".
Hard to escape the rational conclusion in the message that you are proclaiming.

This is the cognitive dissonance referred to earlier. We all live with it. Me too.
I believe God still heals people today, but not everyone I pray for receives healing. Why?
All I know for sure is that 100% of the people I don't pray for don't receive the healing I intended for them.
So, do I toss in towel because the success rate isn't what I hoped for, our continue and hope for the best?

I own my cognitive dissonance, and you can own yours too.

Steven is having his little tantrum fit because he can't prove his blessed UR to be true.

So he spits at us who call him out, claiming we support the torturer of man.

I'm sure God is very pleased with you, Steven!
 

Charlie24

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That makes no sense.

He can't be the savior of all unless he saves all.

Your reading is like saying, "Chadrho is the janitor of all buildings, especially of the ones he cleans." If Chadrho doesn't clean all buildings, he's not the janitor of all buildings.

What is needed is an identification of what is peculiar to believers. It's not salvation since he is the savior of all. Hint: belief.

If God saves all men why are many cast into the lake of fire, as the Scripture says?

I've already shown you that "aionois" has no end! So what does that tell you?

It tells me that many go to the Lake and never get out. It also tells me that you are hard of learning!
 

Charlie24

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St. SteVen said:
This one differentiates between "all people" and "those who believe." (currently)
Stating that "the living God" is "the Savior of all people". (and especially those who believe)

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Your doctrine dictates that this can't possibly mean what it plainly says. And for that reason alone.
How can God be the Savior of all people if salvation is dependent on an act of our will?
The Savior of "all" people is off the table if it only applies to some.

The word "especially" indicates a subset of "all". (obviously)
We want "all" our friends to be at your birthday party, and "especially" you, birthday boy.

Conditional Atonement?
God's will for all of humankind dependent on our decision?
Not the way I understand it.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Post #97 applies to you also, Steven! Explain that for me. Oh wait, you can't explain it without admitting I'm right.
 
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Chadrho

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If God saves all men why are many cast into the lake of fire, as the Scripture says?

I've already shown you that "aionois" has no end! So what does that tell you?

It tells me that many go to the Lake and never get out. It also tells me that you are hard of learning!

I agree with Steven that your unwillingness to accept your own interpretation as one of a number of possibilities prevents productive conversation.

You have not shown aionios to always be everlasting because that cannot be shown. You seem uninformed regarding the long history of debate over that word going back to the very earliest commentators on scripture. The fact it continues to be debated means no definitive position can be shown.

What you call "hard of learning" is simply a disagreement with your position.

So what might a productive conversation between us look like? It would begin with our mutual agreement that the ambiguity of the scriptures regarding this issue results in differing interpretations.

In the early church, the Cappadocians disagreed over this issue. Basil the Great held to ECT. Gregory of Nanzianzus was on the fence, basically holding an agnostic position regarding this issue. Gregory of Nyssa and Macrina the Younger held to apokatastasis (universal restoration). And yet, these siblings and friends were deeply committed to the cause of orthodox/Trinitarian faith. They understood the ambiguity in the scriptures regarding this issue, even the debate regarding aionios, and yet they all held the same faith.

Your insistence that those who hold to UR are not faithfully interpreting scripture is disingenuous and uninformed. You might not be willing to relent and accept what I'm saying. But those who might be reading this thread need to know the truth. This issue is debatable precisely because the scriptures are ambiguous, leading to differing positions. That is not a sin, it's not due to a lack of faith or spiritual insight, and to not allow for the possibility that one's position is one of a number (3), can only come from ignorance and hubris.
 

Charlie24

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I agree with Steven that your unwillingness to accept your own interpretation as one of a number of possibilities prevents productive conversation.

You have not shown aionios to always be everlasting because that cannot be shown. You seem uninformed regarding the long history of debate over that word going back to the very earliest commentators on scripture. The fact it continues to be debated means no definitive position can be shown.

What you call "hard of learning" is simply a disagreement with your position.

So what might a productive conversation between us look like? It would begin with our mutual agreement that the ambiguity of the scriptures regarding this issue results in differing interpretations.

In the early church, the Cappadocians disagreed over this issue. Basil the Great held to ECT. Gregory of Nanzianzus was on the fence, basically holding an agnostic position regarding this issue. Gregory of Nyssa and Macrina the Younger held to apokatastasis (universal restoration). And yet, these siblings and friends were deeply committed to the cause of orthodox/Trinitarian faith. They understood the ambiguity in the scriptures regarding this issue, even the debate regarding aionios, and yet they all held the same faith.

Your insistence that those who hold to UR are not faithfully interpreting scripture is disingenuous and uninformed. You might not be willing to relent and accept what I'm saying. But those who might be reading this thread need to know the truth. This issue is debatable precisely because the scriptures are ambiguous, leading to differing positions. That is not a sin, it's not due to a lack of faith or spiritual insight, and to not allow for the possibility that one's position is one of a number (3), can only come from ignorance and hubris.

Notice that "aionios" is defined as "having no end."

Also notice Matt. 25:46 below in the bold. "Aionios" punishment (everlasting punishment) has no end.

Therefore we come to the conclusion that God Is NOT the Saviour of all men in the way you define it!

◄ G166 ►
αἰώνιος

Transliteration
aionios;

Pronunciation
ahee-o'-nee-os

Parts of Speech
adj

Root Word (Etymology)
from 165

Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: TDNT 1:208

KJV Translation Count — 71x
The KJV translates Strongs H1 in the following manner: eternal (42), everlasting (25), the world began 5550 (2), since the world began 5550 (1), for ever (1)

Outline of Biblical Usage
1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801


Strong's Definitions
ahee-o'-nee-os; from (165) (αἰών); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): — eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Concordance Results Using KJV
Matt 18:8
WhereG166e if thy hand or thy foot offend G166e, cut G166m off, and cast G166m from G166e: it is better G166 G166e to enter into life halt or maimed, raG166r than having two hands or two feet to be cast into G166 fire.

KJV
Matt 19:16
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have G166 life?

KJV
Matt 19:29
And G166y one that hath G166saken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or faG166r, or moG166r, or wife, or children, or lands, G166 my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit G166 life.

KJV
Matt 25:41
G166n shall he say also unto G166m on G166 left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into G166 fire, prepared G166 G166 devil and his angels:

KJV
Matt 25:46
And G166se shall go away into G166 punishment: but G166 righteous into life G166.