Pre-Destined Elect - simplified.

[Behold]

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

"vessels of wrath fitted for destruction".

You have no idea who this is referring to, so let me show you.
Who is that?
Its you, if you are not born again.
Its me, if i was not born again.
its this verse.........John 3:36

So, all unbelievers are the judged.....they are currently committing the unpardonable sin of UNBELIEF.
This makes them, as they are found right now, the Judged of God, waiting for final Judgment.
We were all this, all of us were these "Vessels", until we were born again.

 

[ChristisGod]

"vessels of wrath fitted for destruction".

You have no idea who this is referring to, so let me show you.
Who is that?
Its you, if you are not born again.
Its me, if i was not born again.
its this verse.........John 3:36

So, all unbelievers are the judged.....they are currently committing the unpardonable sin of UNBELIEF.
This makes them, as they are found right now, the Judged of God, waiting for final Judgment.
We were all this, all of us were these "Vessels", until we were born again.

You have no idea since the passage comes from Romans 9 and you are all over the place everywhere except the CONTEXT of Romans 9.

next....................................

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

ronald



Thats not true, the Holy Spirit dwelt in believers in the OT He was in the Prophets 1 Pet 1 10-12

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow

Isaac was born after the Spirit Gal 4:29

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

First of all, The Spirit is omnipresent, everywhere. In the Old Testament, The Holy Spirit came upon the prophets and select chosen people . He spoke directly to the prophets, audibly, empowered them, guided them, gifted them with wisdom and knowledge, etc. We see the phrase used often “the Spirit came upon me”, “the Spirit is on me”, etc. David said, “do not cast me from your presence …”, “where can I go from your presence?” He came upon those prophets at certain times and they were temporarily filled with the Spirit, for a purpose; but not the rest of the Israelites and certainly not the gentiles, they had to get the message second hand.

Why would God instruct the Israelites to build a Temple for His dwelling, if He dwelled with man? Our new spiritual Temple replaced the old, built with hands.

Since Pentecost, He lives in us – all who believe in Christ. We have personal access to Him, not from a distance, in some Temple or through some prophet.

This was the future hope of the Jews, that all believers would experience this personal relationship, that He would pour out His Spirit on all of them.

“And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh … “ Joel 2:28

“And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and you will keep my Judgments and do them.” Ezek. 36:26-27

 

[brightfame52]

First of all, The Spirit is omnipresent, everywhere. In the Old Testament, The Holy Spirit came upon the prophets and select chosen people . He spoke directly to the prophets, audibly, empowered them, guided them, gifted them with wisdom and knowledge, etc. We see the phrase used often “the Spirit came upon me”, “the Spirit is on me”, etc. David said, “do not cast me from your presence …”, “where can I go from your presence?” He came upon those prophets at certain times and they were temporarily filled with the Spirit, for a purpose; but not the rest of the Israelites and certainly not the gentiles, they had to get the message second hand.

Why would God instruct the Israelites to build a Temple for His dwelling, if He dwelled with man? Our new spiritual Temple replaced the old, built with hands.

Since Pentecost, He lives in us – all who believe in Christ. We have personal access to Him, not from a distance, in some Temple or through some prophet.

This was the future hope of the Jews, that all believers would experience this personal relationship, that He would pour out His Spirit on all of them.

“And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh … “ Joel 2:28

“And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and you will keep my Judgments and do them.” Ezek. 36:26-27

The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets according to Peter. Isaac was born after the Spirit according to Gal 4!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets according to Peter. Isaac was born after the Spirit according to Gal 4!

I just agreed that the prophets had the Spirit.
What you claimed is that God lived in them.

 

[brightfame52]

I just agreed that the prophets had the Spirit.
What you claimed is that God lived in them.

Yes, He was in them, and Isaac was born of the Spirit. Enoch walked with God, so he had to be born again in the Spirit. In fact anyone in the OT who had faith was born of the Spirit because Faith is the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Enoch111]

We were all this, all of us were these "Vessels", until we were born again.

That is patently false, and the context makes it perfectly. "Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are those who are destined for Hell, because they refused to believe God and believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Pharoah who opposed God and Moses is a clear example of a man who refused to repent even though he was given multiple opportunities. He was therefore destined for Hell. But those who have been saved by grace are "vessels of mercy".

 

[ChristisGod]

So, all unbelievers are the judged.....they are currently committing the unpardonable sin of UNBELIEF.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Scripture declares the "unpardonable, unforgivable " sin is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit not unbelief.

Matthew 12:31-32
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

That is patently false, and the context makes it perfectly. "Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are those who are destined for Hell, because they refused to believe God and believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Pharoah who opposed God and Moses is a clear example of a man who refused to repent even though he was given multiple opportunities. He was therefore destined for Hell. But those who have been saved by grace are "vessels of mercy".

You are confused. The Church the Election of Grace were never the vessels of Wrath but always been the vessels of Mercy.

 

[brightfame52]

behold

So, all unbelievers are the judged.....they are currently committing the unpardonable sin of UNBELIEF.

Unbelief is forgiven, if it wasn't, everyone Christ died for could not be forgiven, since they are born into this world as unbelievers. Also the election of grace, God has mercy on their unbelief Rom 11 32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So that which God has mercy upon is not unpardonable !

 

[Enoch111]

You are confused. The Church the Election of Grace were never the vessels of Wrath but always been the vessels of Mercy.

How could I be confused when that is exactly what I said? Read it again.

 

[brightfame52]

How could I be confused when that is exactly what I said? Read it again.

Ok you said

"Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are those who are destined for Hell, because they refused to believe God and believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

So let me ask, are you saying they were vessels of wrath because they " because they refused to believe God and believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." or they refuse to believe because they were vessels of wrath ?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets according to Peter. Isaac was born after the Spirit according to Gal 4!

Galatians 4:21–31 is an allegory about Abraham's two wives, and the two sons. Paul shows the difference between being born into slavery, by human effort, as opposed to being born into freedom, by the work of God through the Holy Spirit. Ishmael was born into slavery and cast out when the child of promise arrived. Likewise, living under the law became pointless when Christ arrived. Those who trust in Him become children of promise by God's power.

 

[brightfame52]

Galatians 4:21–31 is an allegory about Abraham's two wives, and the two sons. Paul shows the difference between being born into slavery, by human effort, as opposed to being born into freedom, by the work of God through the Holy Spirit. Ishmael was born into slavery and cast out when the child of promise arrived. Likewise, living under the law became pointless when Christ arrived. Those who trust in Him become children of promise by God's power.

I know what Gal 4 is about. Contained in it is the fact that Isaac the child of promise was born after the Spirit. He was born again and persecuted as the born again we're persecuted in Paul's day.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I know what Gal 4 is about. Contained in it is the fact that Isaac the child of promise was born after the Spirit. He was born again and persecuted as the born again we're persecuted in Paul's day.

It appears that a teacher of the Law, did not understand what you are talking about when Jesus said in John 3:3 that you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. He didn't understand. No one was born again until after Christ died for our sins. Then His blood sacrifice was imputed to all the OT saints who lived by faith.
It was always my understanding that the blood sacrifice of animals did not wash, but covered the sins. They sent them out on a scapegoat. The OT sacrificial system was a shadow of the sacrificial Lamb of God who was the only One who could wash away sins.
As far as Enoch walking with God and then he was raptured, I cannot say for sure, only that in the spiritual realm exists outside our time domain and so Christs future sacrifice was imputed to Enoch. ??? Elijah too did not die. Which is why some believe they will be the two witnesses who return, for it is appointed for man to die. ???
So the Holy Spirit guiding, coming upon, filling the prophets was not the same as taking up residence in our Temple. Their sins weren't washed and s far as I know God cannot dwell in the presence of sin. Our spiritual compartment, (our "new" Temple - which is something we sisnt have before ) is without sin, pure, separate from the rest of our soul. It is likened to the OT Temple, Holy of Holies, where God dwelt. The veil separated this area from the outer court.

 

[brightfame52]

It appears that a teacher of the Law, did not understand what you are talking about when Jesus said in John 3:3 that you must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven. He didn't understand. No one was born again until after Christ died for our sins. Then His blood sacrifice was imputed to all the OT saints who lived by faith.
It was always my understanding that the blood sacrifice of animals did not wash, but covered the sins. They sent them out on a scapegoat. The OT sacrificial system was a shadow of the sacrificial Lamb of God who was the only One who could wash away sins.
As far as Enoch walking with God and then he was raptured, I cannot say for sure, only that in the spiritual realm exists outside our time domain and so Christs future sacrifice was imputed to Enoch. ??? Elijah too did not die. Which is why some believe they will be the two witnesses who return, for it is appointed for man to die. ???
So the Holy Spirit guiding, coming upon, filling the prophets was not the same as taking up residence in our Temple. Their sins weren't washed and s far as I know God cannot dwell in the presence of sin. Our spiritual compartment, (our "new" Temple - which is something we sisnt have before ) is without sin, pure, separate from the rest of our soul. It is likened to the OT Temple, Holy of Holies, where God dwelt. The veil separated this area from the outer court.

Rabbit trail

 

[Behold]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Scripture declares the "unpardonable, unforgivable " sin is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit not unbelief.!

Let me help you..

What you are talking about is blasphemy OF....the HS..= the Unpardonable sin, which is what the unsaved Jews were doing in Hebrews 10.....
THey were blaspheming and they were unbelieving.

Speaking against the HS, is blasphemy AGAINST....and Christ Rejection is also the same sin, but it a different technique... its Blasphemy OF..
Same end result. = Hell.

Think of it like this...
A person is drawn....compelled.......wooed, by the Holy Spirit to accept Christ when they HEAR the Gospel.
"faith comes by HEARING"......the word of God......which is a living seed, and not just text on paper in a bible.

So, an example of refusing the Holy Spirit, which is to blaspheme and to reject, is this...

A person is a solid church member. 40 yrs.
For 40 yrs, during the Alter Call, on Sunday, they stand and RESIST being born again.
THey RESIST the Holy Spirit's drawing them to the Cross, leading them to The Christ.
They RESIST the HS for 40 yrs.
This is committing the unpardonable sin. You find Hebrews doing this, in Hebrews 10.
This is John 3:36

When Jesus walked the earth, you had Hebrews who accused Him to His FACE of doing Miracles "by the power of Satan"....and this is Blasphemy AGAINST the Holy Spirit.

So, you have blasphemy OF, which is to reject Jesus, and die a Christ Rejector, = the unpardonable sin
You have blasphemy AGAINST the HS< which is to speak to Jesus, to His FACE, accusing Him of Satan's Work.