Pre-Destined Elect - simplified.

[Behold]

Here is a simplified understanding.

God does not pre-destine us to be SAVED, while others are pre-destined to be Damned.
Bottomline.

Let me bring this "pre-destined elect" Theology home to you reader.......
Do you have a mother, do you have a child, children? What if God pre-determined that you get to go to Heaven, while He pre-destined your mother and your children to burn in the lake of fire, and there is nothing they can do about it. They CAN'T BE SAVED because GOD WON'T LET THEM.
So, do you see the "crazy" in this Hyper-Calvinism Theology?
Welcome to "pre-destined elect", "elect" "elect" "elect" "elect" "elect" heresy.
I think this one is the worst of them all, regarding totally rejecting the New Testament.
Imagine a "gospel" that accuses God of ordaining all the "evil" in the world.
Imagine a "gospel" that teaches as its core theological principle that God chooses some for Heaven and chooses to burn others, and you are BORN to this "pre-destiny"
and you have no CHOICE.
This is as crazy as it gets.. theologically.
This horrible theology teaches that some people are born to go to hell. They have No choice to be saved. No way to be saved. No option to be saved. No free-will.. This hellish theology literally teaches that some of you are born to BURN in the Lake of Fire and God chose you to go.
The incredibly deceived who teach this damnable hellish cultish theological poison will tell you that all the evil in the world...... Rape, murder, incest, child porn, the sex industry, the porn industry, all Wars, all of man's inhumanity to man is "ordained by God and is caused to BE, by God".
Their theology and belief functions, as if there is no Devil.

Listen, anyone with an IQ, or a recognition that the Same Beautiful and Loving God who came here to die as... "For God so loved the WORLD< that HE GAVE".. understands that God as Christ on a Cross dying for the "sin of the world", is not a God who later.... saves some and burns others.

The reality is... all this "pre-destined elect" stuff resists Spiritual LOGIC< when we understand that "GOD IS LOVE"....and its certainly in direct opposition to the reality of Free Will... as well as denying a plethora of NT Verses that all say..>"as MANY as will come"..." ALL that call on ME shall be saved"...

See, this is the thing about deception....its very powerful. And Satan blinds the mind so that reason, logic, discernment, common sense, are GONE, and all that is left is God denying illogical carnal nonsense that deceived people will claim is "truth".
And this is true of all theological heresies and the people that own them and rant them.

The ELECT,....
These are those who are Pre-destined, or pre-determined to end up ONLY as conformed into "the image of Christ".
You are "elected" by FAITH, you are the elect: by FAITH.
Faith elects the elect.

Being conformed into the Image of Christ is what is pre-determined, (pre-destined) as the final outcome for all who are born again. (Elect).
No one is "chosen by God to burn", and "others are chosen by God to go to Heaven".
WE, the born again, are ELECTED to become, "the image of Christ, by our FAITH that causes God to give us the New Birth.
Faith Elects.
God Saves.

The Foreknowledge of God, knows, regarding each of us who are born again, .....long before we were, that our end result is to become just like Jesus. (conformed into the image of Christ). This is the final result of Faith. This is the destiny of the Elect.
God also knows before you are born, if you are not going to ever Trust in Christ... But He is not choosing this for anyone....>He only knows what each of us will do with Christ.
God's KNOWING is not God CHOOSING......its just God KNOWING before it happens. = "foreknowledge"....or knowledge be-FORE it happens...."Fore-Knowledge".

WE are a SON of GOD , already.. but the final "pre-destined" revealing will be when we are in heaven, and have the new body and are finally and totally conformed into the image of Christ. This is the "pre destined" outcome that is the end result of our Faith.
This is pre-determined (pre-destined) to occur to everyone who is born again.
That is your pre-destination.
You are Elected by your FAITH to have a final determined outcome....>"conformed into the Image of Christ". = elect.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jde 1:3, Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jde 1:4, For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

From the perspective of time, these men have a choice.

From the perspective of eternity, everything they ever did or will do is foreknown by God.

Since God knew that these men would choose to be false teachers, He ordained them to the condemnation that this deserved...this is predestination unto hell.

 

[atpollard]

Here is a simplified understanding.

God does not pre-destine us to be SAVED, while others are pre-destined to be Damned.
Bottomline.

It is always refreshing when someone that rejects Reformed Theology decides to explain what it teaches.

No one I know that believes TULIP, believes what you have refuted in the OP. So we have the thorough public thrashing of yet another STRAWMAN, while all serious discussion of what Reformed Theology teaches and how that teaching aligns with scripture remains pushed into the closet for another day.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

It is always refreshing when someone that rejects Reformed Theology decides to explain what it teaches.

No one I know that believes TULIP, believes what you have refuted in the OP. So we have the thorough public thrashing of yet another STRAWMAN, while all serious discussion of what Reformed Theology teaches and how that teaching aligns with scripture remains pushed into the closet for another day.

Monster Strawman void of truth indeed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Here is a simplified understanding.

God does not pre-destine us to be SAVED, while others are pre-destined to be Damned.
Bottomline.

The distinction between God "knowing" who will be saved and God determining who will be saved is not anything you've made remotely clear. That being said, I agree that God does not predetermine that people must be consigned to an eternal burning Hell.

For one thing, I don't believe in an eternal burning Hell such as you describe it. Eternal Punishment is simply "Outer Darkness" for me, where people suffer eternal regret and the torment of having spiritual intimacy with God stripped from them. I don't believe anybody will live inside a burning furnace forever and ever--that would be cruel indeed.

A fire can either burn the flesh or destroy one's place in God's Kingdom on earth. I think the Lake of Fire does the latter, and Hell itself--the place of the dead--is thrown into the Lake of Fire as well. The Lost will live on the outskirts of the city, separated by a gulf, some suffering more torment than others, some suffering only a mild punishment. That's what I believe the Scriptures teach.

But I'm also a Predestinarian, and believe that God has chosen an elect, based on His word and based on the outworking of those who have positively responded to that word. Therefore, those who end up lost are known by God, but are the product of human choice.

How it all works out is worked out between God and people. Nobody would predetermine someone to make the wrong choice. But some people end up, by rebellious human choice, putting children in a place where they have no abiding interest in God's word. And so, they naturally live for the world, and turn away from God's word. They are produced outside of the scope of God's original word, and thus are sometimes called "children of the world," or "children of Satan."

Still, even children of the world can participate in God's word to some extent, and can mitigate some of the judgment that will be meted out to them, due to their failure to completely commit to God's word and presence. I'm just telling it like it is. I've seen it over the course of half a century, both inside of and outside of my social group.

 

[justbyfaith]

The holy scriptures are clear on the subject of eternal conscious torment in hell...

Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46, together.

 

[Joseph77]

The holy scriptures are clear on the subject of eternal conscious torment in hell...

Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46, together.

Yes and no.
To most people on earth, they cannot understand holy Scripture at all correctly. The natural man cannot understand anything spiritual ....

 

[Joseph77]

Monster Strawman void of truth indeed.

Curious so a question:

Aren't most discussions of man's made up doctrines and deceptions considered "strawman" arguments by others ?

And aren't most discussions on earth every day, whether on telvision, internet, news, or in person, "void of truth indeed"?

This is perhaps not to lead to anything else, but just for (hopefully) some clarification of strawman and lack of truth in the world.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Curious so a question:

Aren't most discussions of man's made up doctrines and deceptions considered "strawman" arguments by others ?

And aren't most discussions on earth every day, whether on telvision, internet, news, or in person, "void of truth indeed"?

This is perhaps not to lead to anything else, but just for (hopefully) some clarification of strawman and lack of truth in the world.

Hello Joseph ,
I believe biblical doctrine comes from God's word.
Men oppose biblical truth and use carnal reasoning and philosophy to avoid it.
Roman's 1 explains carnal men are truth suppressors

 

[Behold]

The distinction between God "knowing" who will be saved and God determining who will be saved is not anything you've made remotely clear.

I can't learn it for you, Randy.
My Job is to offer it.

So, my Thread is clear.
There are those who teach that God chooses some to go to heaven and chooses others to burn in the lake of fire.
This theology is of the Devil.
If this simple teaching i posted seems difficult for you to grasp, then, i would not be surprised.

 

[justbyfaith]

There are those who teach that God chooses some to go to heaven and chooses others to burn in the lake of fire.
This theology is of the Devil.

So, Jude 1:3-4, is inspired of the devil?

(careful here, you are in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit).

 

[Behold]

Still, even children of the world can participate in God's word to some extent, and can mitigate some of the judgment that will be meted out to them, due to their failure to completely commit to God's word and presence. I'm just telling it like it is. I've seen it over the course of half a century, both inside of and outside of my social group.

Well, my prayer is that you don't end up in Hell as your way to discover that Jesus wasn't Lying about it.

Also, are U claiming that works prove salvation?

Explain this, Randy.

"How does the blood atonement that saved you, keep you saved"?

 

[John Caldwell]

The issue with this discussion is so many go beyond Scripture. Calvinism goes beyond Scripture. Calvinists will often exceed what is written in Scripture by explaining that their theories are taught by Scripture.

But we know this is not correct.

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

 

[Behold]

The issue with this discussion is so many go beyond Scripture. Calvinism goes beyond Scripture. Calvinists will often exceed what is written in Scripture by explaining that their theories are taught by Scripture.

But we know this is not correct.

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

I teach a lot.
And i mean that in both regards......I teach a lot of people, and i do a lot of teaching.
Posting, writing, songs, sermons.........classes.

So, i talk to a lot of people in the States, and all over,.... and regarding this "pre- destined" elect heresy,...this has got to be the worst the devil has ever created.
Its well beyond "Christ and Jesus are Brothers"....as even that Cult does not teach that God Himself is causing some people to burn in the Lake of fire, and that they have no choice but to GO TO HELL.....they are as the "pre-destined" heretics teach..... designed to go....they are BORN to Go to Hell.
This same "pre-destined elect" group, teaches that all the evil in the world is GOD ORDAINED. (caused)
These heretics will lie in public.
They'll deny what they believe if they are "outed".
They'll band together and try to protect each other on forums.
So this devil's theology produces liars as well as devils.

Im on...for example......"Christianforums.com.
This forum is LIVID with "pre-destined" elect heretics.
They are seeping out of the cracks there,,,,,,they grow like dark vines there..
Almost all the Mods on that "christian" forum, are deep into "pre-destined" elect , crazy.
So, im recently arguing about this "God ordains all the evil in the world" with this nutbar PDE MOD and he's livid.
The more i post a response defining what He is saying as "God accusing" and "you are accusing GOD of doing the DEVILS's work ". the angrier he becomes.
So we are deep into it.
He is so angry, .... spitting hate. "YES THATS RIGHT, GOD ORDAINS ALL THE BAD, ALL THE EVIL , ALL THE HATRED, ALL THE HARM IN THE WORLD, THIS HAS TO BE ORDAINED BY GOD, CAUSED BY GOD...THATS RIGHT" !!!!

SO, I Kept responding... pointing out in 25 of his posts to me. .. responding... "you are accusing God of doing the Devil's work....when you say that all EVIL is ordained (caused) of GOD". And i finally tell him that to accuse God of doing the devil's work of "ordaining and causing EVIL", is no different then religious haters of Jesus who said to Jesus... "You are performing miracles, by the power of the Devil".
See, its the SAME THING...

So, things became suddenly Quiet.
No more posts.
10 mins later, another MOD on this site, PM's me. "Behold, you are not staying on topic, and our TOS dictates that you have to stick to the Topic of the Thread....so for this reason.....we are going to remove some of your Posts".

They removed every post he wrote to me, it was 25 of them, where he was defending his "pre destined" theology that God ordains it ALL....including all the evil....."rape, incest, hate, murder, child porn, sex trafficing"..... all this stuff that i posted to him that had to be included in his " God ordains all the evil" theological lunacy.

The moral of the story?
Our discussion started because he FIRST posted to ME, the idea of "God ordains it all".
All i did was respond... and respond.
But now im PM'd and told that im the one not staying on "topic"....and it was this MODERATOR who came to ME with the FIRST post that took us into the topic that im now being blamed for by other MODs.

Welcome to how "christianity" works, on some forums, in case you were curious, and only live on this one., reader.
Normally i just face the same little group of heretics on a forum, but on this one....the MODS came running to perform some damage control, regarding trying to protect a liar, who was lying about GOD Himself.
I can see why they would.... as once you "out" these devils, its an ugly Light they find themselves inside.
And its a HOT one.
Believe it.

 

[justbyfaith]

God has His perfect will; and His active will; and His permissive will.

What Calvinists are trying to defend is the concept that God is sovereign.

In God's permissive will, God allows mankind and angels to make decisions that will bring evil and harm to a situation.

Even though evil does take place, God is still in control.

He works everything out to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

His retributive justice might be seen as evil by some who do not have the whole picture; because the nature of retributive justice is that it translates into evil done to the one who has done evil.

However, because it is justice, it is in fact good.

See Proverbs 28:5.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, my prayer is that you don't end up in Hell as your way to discover that Jesus wasn't Lying about it.

Also, are U claiming that works prove salvation?

Explain this, Randy.

"How does the blood atonement that saved you, keep you saved"?

If you can't tell whether someone is saved or not, are you blind?

 

[justbyfaith]

If you can't tell whether someone is saved or not, are you blind?

No; that would only mean that you don't have the spiritual gift of the discernment of spirits.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I can't learn it for you, Randy.
My Job is to offer it.

So, my Thread is clear.
There are those who teach that God chooses some to go to heaven and chooses others to burn in the lake of fire.
This theology is of the Devil.
If this simple teaching i posted seems difficult for you to grasp, then, i would not be surprised.

No, I understand where you're coming from, and as I said, I don't believe God predestines anybody to the Lake of Fire. The children of this world are born out of human rejection of the word of God, and through the inspiration of Satan. That's why they're called "children of the Devil." They find no place in themselves for God's word, and thus, are produced by the word of men.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No; that would only mean that you don't have the spiritual gift of the discernment of spirits.

Well, we should be able to tell if someone is saved, though not always by their countenance, or halo. Sometimes the prophet or minister of the word has a difficult task, and will not appear to have everybody's welfare in mind. He is subject to God's word and guidance, and that could take him to places where he is rejected. We all should recognize that, since we're all called to obey God's word, right?

 

[Joseph77]

Well, we should be able to tell if someone is saved, though not always by their countenance, or halo. Sometimes the prophet or minister of the word has a difficult task, and will not appear to have everybody's welfare in mind. He is subject to God's word and guidance, and that could take him to places where he is rejected. We all should recognize that, since we're all called to obey God's word, right?

Many are called, but few are chosen.
I'm fairly sure you know this from Scripture.