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Featured Pre-Trib Rapture is Dead!!!

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Rollo Tamasi, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    thanks, but now one more question. if the church is raptured out into heaven in the first resurrection who are the saint in the Beloved city for a thousand years after the first resurrection. for you said in post #14,
    well if they, Meaning the Saint, how are they in the belove city, Christ in heaven with the risen saint there?

    please reply.
     
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  2. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    No one is removed from the earth on or before the Lord's Day of wrath. [A single day of fires, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis caused by a hit upon the earth of a Coronal Mass Ejection, Isaiah 30:26, Psalms 50:1-3, +]
    The Lord does not promise a 'rapture to heaven' on that Day, but His protection for all who stand firm in their faith and call upon His Name. Joel 2"32, Acts 2:21.
     
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  3. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to say this Keraz, but you are expressing confusion about the Day of the LORD, and its significance for the unsaved and the ungodly.
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    OK. Let's look at this a little differently. What is the sequence of events PRIOR TO and AFTER the second coming of Christ? The first thing to understand here is that at the second coming Christ comes WITH His Church saints and angels. But at this time the Tribulation saints have already been martyred (beheaded and killed) by the Antichrist and will be resurrected just before the Millennium.

    SEQUENCE OF EVENTS
    1. The Resurrection/Rapture of the Church [Christ comes for His saints]
    2. The reign of the Antichrist begins ( limited to 3 1/2 years)
    3. The Tribulation or "the time of Jacob's trouble"
    4. The Abomination of Desolation (the image of the best)
    5. The martyrdom of the Tribulation saints
    6. The Great Tribulation [3 1/2 years less a few months]
    7. The cataclysmic cosmic events
    8a. The Marriage of the Lamb (in Heaven)
    8b. The second coming of Christ [Christ comes with His saints and angels]
    9. The battle of Armageddon
    10. The binding of Satan
    11. The resurrection of the Tribulation saints (phase 3 of the first resurrection)
    12. The Millennium
    13. The battle of Gog and Magog
    14. The Great White Throne Judgment (*the rest of the dead* and the second resurrection)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  5. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    It's not ludicrous Enoch.
    Persons and entire populations have been going through tribulation all throughout history. In Africa some Christians have been getting their heads cut off for many years not. Nigeria. And some other countries too. Rwanda in the past.

    The following denominations do not believe in the rapture:
    Lutheran
    Anglican
    Presbytarian
    Reformed
    Catholic
    Orthodox

    Most of Christianity...

    Also, I'd like to point out that the early church had no concept such as the rapture. This is a recent phenomenon, like some other current beliefs which were not known until recently.

    Pre-tribulation rapture theology originated in the eighteenth century, with the Puritan preachers Increase and Cotton Mather, and was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby[12][13] and the Plymouth Brethren,[14] and further in the United States by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible in the early 20th century.[15] Some, including Grant Jeffrey, maintain that an earlier document called Ephraem or Pseudo-Ephraem already supported a pre-tribulation rapture.[16]

    source: Rapture - Wikipedia
     
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  6. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Please show us where it states that Jesus comes TWO times.

    All we know is that He will return from where He left..
    One time.
     
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  7. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    Over 100 Bible prophesies describe the forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath.
    It will be just a one day event, that will literally fulfil all those graphic prophesies.
    It seems that about half of the current worlds population will die, the greatest proportion in the Middle East region. Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17

    There will be no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone on that Day, or later, it will be our test of faith. 1 Peter 4:12 We must stand firm and trust in the Lord for our protection, but we are told to get under cover. Isaiah 26:20-21
     
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  8. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    let's look At 1 & 8, you said,
    if they are with him why are they being raised at his coming, scripture,
    1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

    the saint are here on earth to be raised.

    I believe what you're mixed up on is the spirit are brought, not the souls. scriptures,
    1Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    there are no human souls in heaven before his coming
     
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  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    FOR HIS SAINTS [BUT NOT TO EARTH, IN THE AIR]
    And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Jn 14:3)

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:16,17)

    WITH HIS SAINTS [TO EXECUTE JUDGMENTS UPON EARTH]
    And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech 14:5)

    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15).

    Behold, he cometh with clouds*; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

    *CLOUDS: The saints and angels, all dressed in white, and radiating light, will give the appearance of clouds surrounding Christ.
     
  10. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure...
    Didn't Jesus say that when that day comes, we should run to the hills and that it would be better for babies to die or something like that?

    I've tended to read past things of the future...I'm sorry I can't remember the verse.

    However, this would show that there will be no rapture.
     
  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    What makes you say that? Both the spirits and souls of all the saints are in Heaven.

    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev 6:9-11)
     
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  12. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    the altar is here on EARTH, no blood is shed in heaven. there is no blood in heaven, to cleanse who and what? no, Christ on the CROSS shed his blood here on earth.

    and take note, the souls was "UNDER", "UNDER" the altar here on earth.

    ok, now you can go on about 1 & 8
     
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  13. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You have not been paying attention. The trials and tribulations of Christians (as I already pointed out) are not an expression of God's WRATH. But the Tribulation and Great Tribulation are indeed expressions of WRATH. Do you see the difference or do you not understand that Christians are NOT subject to the wrath of God?

    Please note what the unbelievers and the wicked have to say: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:16,17)

    Do Christians say -- or will say -- "Hide us from the face of Him?"
     
  14. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    E, I used 1 Thesalonians 4:16-17 to show that Jesus is coming back only one time...you're using it to show He's coming back twice.

    We can't both be right.

    Did you notice that most churches to not believe in the rapture?
    Churches base their beliefs on bible scholars with PhD's.
    Also, I rely very much on the fact that the early church theologians did not even have this concept in mind. And some of them were taught by the Apostles; I can think of two just off-hand that knew and were taught by John the Apostle.

    I tend to believe those who were closest to Jesus.
    And THEY did not know about this rapture...
     
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  15. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Wrath is not the punishment, but leads to it. it's like sin and iniquity. sin is not iniquity. look it up, but it can cause it.
    WRATH: G3709 ὀργή orge (or-ǰee') n.
    1. (properly) desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind).
    2. (by analogy) violent passion (ire or (justifiable) abhorrence).
    3. (by implication) punishment.
    [from G3713]
    KJV: anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath

    punishment: G1557 ἐκδίκησις ekdikesis (ek-d̮iy'-kee-sis) n.
    vindication, retribution.
    [from G1556]
    KJV: (a-, re-)venge(-ance), punishment
    Root(s): G1556

    punishment: the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.

    the two are not the same. we need to be aware of this.
     
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  16. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Unbelievers have always been experiencing God's wrath.
    I don't believe there will be a tribulation in the way you describe it.
    I DO believe the end will be full of tribulation...more than the world has ever seen because it'll be world-wide; not because it'll be new in any way.

    All the atrocities man could do to man have already happened in the past and will continue to happen.
     
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  17. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Thumbs up on sin and iniquity...
    !
     
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  18. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The altar mentioned is the altar of incense in Heaven.

    REVELATION 8
    3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
    4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
    5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast itinto the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.


    And the blood of Christ which was shed on earth was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in Heaven. There is a tabernacle, a Holy Place, and a Mercy Seat in Heaven "not made with hands". Along with an altar of incense.

    But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (Heb 9:11,12)

    And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 11:24)

    You should take some time to study the matter THOROUGHLY instead of continuing on with your inaccurate and uninformed statements.
     
  19. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    yes, and thanks, because many christian think it's the sane.
     
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  20. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    Also, you could add transgression to the list.
    Transgression: Breaking a law once it's known.
    :)
     
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