Pre Tribulation rapture of the Church

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Eric E Stahl

New Member
May 28, 2013
388
13
0
Pa. USA
Rocky Wiley said:
Retro,

Things we know without a great deal of study.

1. Jesus said he had come to fulfill all that had been written of him. That included Daniel's prophecy.

2. When Jesus told his disciples the temple would be destroyed, thay knew he was speaking of the end of the age for as stated earlier, they ask, 'when will thise things be, what will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age.

3. The age the disciples lived in was in the age of law.

4. We live in the age of grace, or the church age.

5. Jewish theologian, Rachel Adelman, has written an article of Jacob's vision the foundation of the World. Who knows more about the old testament than a Jewish theologian? Certainly not most Christians.
http://www.racheladelman.com/article/

6. Jesus told the Pharisees that judgement was coming upon them and their generation, not our generation.

My opinions don't come from men, they come from God's word. If Jesus said he would return in judgement in the disciples generation and some of them would not have passed away before he had done that, then we need to translate the rest of the bible with understanding that Jesus can not lie and we can not say he did not return just because man did not record it.

Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.

Can we believe Jesus?

The Lord will take control of earth in the middle of the tribulation but not occupy the earth till the end of the tribulation.

[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 11:11-15[/SIZE]
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,190
2,392
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus Christ says that we are to be ready for the Son of Man to return in times like Noah and of Lot. Times were carrying on in everyday context. Men were eating, drinking, working, and marrying... And then two were in the field and one taken. So Christ invites us to "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:8
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 4:3

So, that day comes as a thief in the night to those who 'love his appearing.' I am sure that many will miss this event as they do not look for it. And I will also venture to say that they will endure part of of reign of the Anti-Christ and will likely perish before the pouring of the wrath (after 3.5 years of Anti-Christ reign, as they will have no way to buy or to sell. There will also be those who ignore bible advise and get the mark anyway for their own survival.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

Many are called but few are chosen.
Feb 23, 2013
860
24
18
AUSTRALIA
Axehead said:
II. "Rapture" in premillennial/dispensational eschatology and theology
A. The "catching up" of believers, the Church, was separated in time from the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to earth in the teaching of the Plymouth Brethren of Britain, creating a two-phase Second Coming of Christ.
1. Rapture - Jesus' coming for His saints
2. Revelation - Jesus' coming with His saints


B. Illustrations

rapture.gif


C. History of this interpretation
1. Margaret MacDonald (1830) - personal prophecy in Glasgow
2. Edward Irving (1832) - Scottish charismatic preacher
3. John Nelson Darby - Irish lawyer and Plymouth Brethren leader
4. James H. Brookes - American Presbyterian preacher
5. Dwight L. Moody - Moody Bible Institute
6. C.I. Scofield - Scofield Bible
7. Dallas Theological Seminary (Chafer, Ironside, Ryrie, Walvoord)
8. Hal Lindsey - Late, Great Planet Earth
9. Popular interpretation of fundamentalist evangelicals


D. Variant opinions of the time of "rapture" among premillennialists
1. Pre-tribulation rapture - church removed from tribulation
2. Mid-tribulation rapture - church removed prior to severe tribulation
3. Pre-wrath rapture - (variant of mid-tribulation rapture)
4. Post-tribulation rapture - church endures tribulation
5. Partial tribulation - faithful remnant of Christians removed at beginning of tribulation; others removed later


E. Elements of "rapture" in pretribulation, premillennial dispensationalism
1. Two-phase second-coming
2. Imminence - any time, any moment, soon coming
3. Silent, secret, invisible disappearance of Christians


III. Concluding observations concerning the "rapture"
A. Affirming the reality of being "caught up with Christ" (I Thess. 4:17)
1. Semantic irrelevance of using the word "rapture"
2. Maintaining the hope of Christ's return


B. Questioning the elements of pretribulational premillennial "rapture"
1. Inadequate basis for two-phase Second Coming
a. "caught up," "meet," descend" same time period
b. final judgment
2. Inadequate basis for imminence of expectation
a. His return is impending
b. His return will be sudden, unannounced
c. Christians are to be expectant, prepared, waiting and watching
3. Inadequate basis for secret rapture
a. His return will be public
b. His return will be visible
4. Inadequate basis for silent rapture
a. His return will be with shout
b. His return will be with trumpet
5. Improper claims of new revelation


C. Avoiding the effects of pretribulational premillennial "rapture"
1. divisiveness, intolerance, disunity
2. arrogance, pride, superiority, gnosticism
3. escapist mentality, avoidance, withdrawal
4. negative attitude toward society; disengaged
5. inadequate ecclesiology; ghetto mentality; church relegated to tossing out life-savers


Source: ChristInYou
Thanks for the source. :)
 

TWC

New Member
Dec 1, 2008
141
4
0
40
rockytopva said:
Jesus Christ says that we are to be ready for the Son of Man to return in times like Noah and of Lot. Times were carrying on in everyday context. Men were eating, drinking, working, and marrying... And then two were in the field and one taken. So Christ invites us to "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."
Who got left and who got taken? Interesting how you left that part out.

So, that day comes as a thief in the night to those who 'love his appearing.' I am sure that many will miss this event as they do not look for it. And I will also venture to say that they will endure part of of reign of the Anti-Christ and will likely perish before the pouring of the wrath (after 3.5 years of Anti-Christ reign, as they will have no way to buy or to sell. There will also be those who ignore bible advise and get the mark anyway for their own survival.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-5
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

The "day" in reference is identified by the text as being the Day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

It's very much like the days of Noah and Lot. In Noah's case, the flood began the day Noah entered the ark. Rain. Flood. Water. You know, no one left on the ground. In Lot's case, he fled Sodom as it was being destroyed. Fire. Brimstone. You know, no one left in the city.

So, first you want to say that there's a seven-year tribulation period that follows this. Then you say that people are going to miss this event entirely? Really?
 

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
JB_ said:
Thanks for the source. :)
You are welcome. The best thing I have ever read on the book of Revelation (and I have read many of the views) is found here.

Jesus: Victor over Religion

I believe you will find it very interesting and you will also find yourself agreeing with much of it.

Axehead
 

Rocky Wiley

Active Member
Aug 28, 2012
929
156
43
83
Southeast USA
Eric E Stahl said:
The Lord will take control of earth in the middle of the tribulation but not occupy the earth till the end of the tribulation.

[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 11:11-15[/SIZE]
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Eric,

What you say is correct, but your time line is wrong. The book of Revelation is about Jesus coming in judgement on the Jews that rejected him as their Messiah. That happened in 70AD when Jesus returned to do what he had told his disciples he would do. That the end of the age would come when the temple was destroyed (Mat 24). At that same time the resurrection of the dead took place and those believers that were alive would never die. What we call death is just a transition to our heavenly body.

This is again spoken of in scripture.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Death was destroyed when we were born again!

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The kingdom of God is still spiritual, but we partake of it while still here on earth.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 

Trumpeter

New Member
Mar 6, 2013
332
3
0
Alberta, Canada
TWC said:
Who got left and who got taken? Interesting how you left that part out.
Thus says the Lord YahuShua: I am coming for those who are Mine, who I see of Myself in them, and for those little ones who remain in their innocence.
And of those, who carry Me within them, these look for My coming and know it is nigh, for they are fully awake in Me, and wait anxiously with kinked necks.
And those who truly love Me, yet gaze as one having man’s veil atop their heads, not believing those who are Mine will escape but will endure great tribulation, these shall also be taken according to that which their hearts reveal, in spite of their error, for these have also passed from judgment into the Light of Life. It is only the leaders in the churches of men, who led them astray, according to their own arrogance and false doctrine, who shall be left.



I search the hearts and minds! Says the Lord.


Excerpt from:
I Search the Hearts and Minds
http://trumpetcallof...earts_and_Minds
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Ain't nobody going anywhere. Christ Jesus is coming HERE. That is the subject of all of God's prophets and Christ's Apostles.

Here, on earth, is where Christ Jesus is coming to setup His Kingdom, reigning over all nations with His elect. For over 1800 years the Christian Church understood this. Only in the 1830's with a group of wierdos that began to push a 'secret rapture' to Heaven did many become deceived about it away from what's actually written in God's Word.

The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period of Revelation 11 is the same timing of the "day of The LORD" when our Lord Jesus returns to defeat the Wicked one and gather His Church to Jerusalem where He will reign from.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, veteran.

veteran said:
Ain't nobody going anywhere. Christ Jesus is coming HERE. That is the subject of all of God's prophets and Christ's Apostles.

Here, on earth, is where Christ Jesus is coming to setup His Kingdom, reigning over all nations with His elect. For over 1800 years the Christian Church understood this. Only in the 1830's with a group of wierdos that began to push a 'secret rapture' to Heaven did many become deceived about it away from what's actually written in God's Word.

The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period of Revelation 11 is the same timing of the "day of The LORD" when our Lord Jesus returns to defeat the Wicked one and gather His Church to Jerusalem where He will reign from.
As much as you've said here, I'm totally in agreement with you.
 

John S

New Member
Jun 4, 2013
268
12
0
71
Pennsylvania
As "veteran" said - "Ain't nobody going anywhere". It's a deception to fool the masses so that the antichrist will go undetected by far too many people for far too long a period of time.
 

BLACK SHEEP

New Member
May 24, 2013
220
8
0
John S said:
As "veteran" said - "Ain't nobody going anywhere". It's a deception to fool the masses so that the antichrist will go undetected by far too many people for far too long a period of time.
The anti-Christ will go undetected anyway since most people are expecting a global dictator. And that's just not going to happen!
As far as a rapture before tribulations goes...GOOD LUCK!
 

John S

New Member
Jun 4, 2013
268
12
0
71
Pennsylvania
Black Sheep - I'm NOT looking for a global dictator. I'm looking for a virtual nobody - probably some kind of mid-level beaurocrat or something like that. The false prophet will introduce him to the world.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Rocky Wiley said:
Retro,

Things we know without a great deal of study.

1. Jesus said he had come to fulfill all that had been written of him. That included Daniel's prophecy.

2. When Jesus told his disciples the temple would be destroyed, thay knew he was speaking of the end of the age for as stated earlier, they ask, 'when will thise things be, what will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age.

3. The age the disciples lived in was in the age of law.

4. We live in the age of grace, or the church age.

5. Jewish theologian, Rachel Adelman, has written an article of Jacob's vision the foundation of the World. Who knows more about the old testament than a Jewish theologian? Certainly not most Christians.
http://www.racheladelman.com/article/

6. Jesus told the Pharisees that judgement was coming upon them and their generation, not our generation.

My opinions don't come from men, they come from God's word. If Jesus said he would return in judgement in the disciples generation and some of them would not have passed away before he had done that, then we need to translate the rest of the bible with understanding that Jesus can not lie and we can not say he did not return just because man did not record it.

Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.

Can we believe Jesus?
Right off the bat, we have a problem.

1. Yeshua` did NOT say that He came to fulfill all that was written about Him. That is a fallacy of your thinking. With a starting premise such as that, you are BOUND to have problems later in your reasoning.

2. When Yeshua` told his students that the temple would be destroyed, they weren't saying they "knew he was speaking of the end of the age" when they asked Him about the end of the age; this were simply asking for more information in ADDITION TO the temple being destroyed. You're reading more into the text than the text gives!

3 & 4. This "age of law" and "age of grace" nonsense is PURE DISPENSATIONALISM! There's NO SUCH THING as an "age of law" or an "age of grace!" Those are FABRICATED labels! In EVERY "age," God deals with all people exactly the same way: By grace, through faith, and by blood! David knew and spoke about justification through God's declaration of righteousness, and Avraham was justified by His faith! In fact, all of those mentioned in the Faith Chapter (chapter 11) of Hebrews were justified by their faith, not by any deeds done in service of the Torah (the "Law")!

5. Who knows more about the Tanakh than a Jewish theologian? LOTS of Jewish rabbis together as a group! One person can be in error, but a group tends to keep each other in check, like opposing forces on a force table in a physics lab, they counterbalance one another (except in the ONE area they ALL continue to stumble over - the Rock of Offense or the Tripping Stone, Yeshua`)!

6. The 1st century definition of "generation" is a far cry away from the modern definition of the term. For proof of that, simply count the "generations" (as we define the term) in the lineage of Yeshua` through His adopted father, Yosef, comparing what is written in Matthew 1 with the genealogies of the Torah (Genesis through Deuteronomy), Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, and Daniel. You will find several apparent discrepancies in the number of "generations" UNTIL you learn to re-define what a "generation" is.

A generation as the term is used in the first century is anytime there is a change in direction between what God calls "good" and "evil." When one "does what is right in God's sight," and the next person "does what is evil in the sight of God," then that is a "generation," and vice versa. When one "does what is right in God's sight," and the next person does the same, they are still in the same generation. Also, when one "does what is evil in God's sight" and the next person does the same, they too are still in the same generation.

In the northern ten tribes of Isra'el, their kings were ALWAYS doing what was evil in God's sight because NONE of them would remove the idols that Jereboam established in the lands of Efrayim and Dan. This is why they were driven out of the Land first!

However, the kings in the southern kingdom of Y'hudah (Judah or Judaea) were constantly flip-flopping back and forth between right and evil. There, the first century concept of "generation" more closely resembles the modern concept of "generation," ... but not perfectly. Hence, there are apparent "gaps" in the list of "generations," whenever the son keeps the same opinion as that of the father.

Lastly, Yeshua` said that His Kingdom was "not of this world-SYSTEM (Greek: kosmos)," NOT "not of this earth!" In other words, His followers would not be living a dog-eat-dog, scratch-your-way-to-the-top kind of look-out-for-number-one mentality! Instead, Yeshua` said that whoever would be greatest, would be the least and a servant to all. THAT is what He meant, not that His Kingdom was in some ethereal, other-dimension called "Heaven!"

Of COURSE we can believe Yeshua`! We just can't always trust what OTHER PEOPLE SAY that Yeshua` said! The truth is that your opinions come from YOU! Whether you have arrived at your own conclusions based on what sounds right to you or whether you follow what someone else had to say to you and taught you, your opinions are your own. See, Yeshua` did NOT say that He would return in judgment in His disciples' generation. That, too, is a fabricated notion that did NOT come from the Scriptures directly but came from someone's FILTER of the Scriptures!
 

iamlamad

New Member
Jun 9, 2013
150
0
0
John S said:
Black Sheep - I'm NOT looking for a global dictator. I'm looking for a virtual nobody - probably some kind of mid-level beaurocrat or something like that. The false prophet will introduce him to the world.
How sad. I will not be looking for either one. I will be watching for Jesus coming in the clouds, and listening for the trumpet call.
It seems God never overides the human will. It is my belief that anyone looking for the BEAST cannot be watching for His coming, and will be left behind. I repeat, this is only my belief. I cannot find an exact scripture telling us this - only a hint of it. it seems, if someone is determined to go through the days of GT, God will leave them behind. He is coming for those WATCHING for His coming. Can you watch for HIM while you are waiting to see the BEAST? lamad
BLACK SHEEP said:
The anti-Christ will go undetected anyway since most people are expecting a global dictator. And that's just not going to happen!
As far as a rapture before tribulations goes...GOOD LUCK!
Ha ha! We won't need luck, for we can have FAITH in the truth of God's word. He is coming before the 70th week and Day of the Lord for those WATCHING for Him. Read 1 Thes 4 again, but don't stop with chapter 4, read chapter 5 too. Paul tells us when the rapture comes. Lamad
John S said:
As "veteran" said - "Ain't nobody going anywhere". It's a deception to fool the masses so that the antichrist will go undetected by far too many people for far too long a period of time.
And this statement in itself is a deception. OF COURSE some are going: read John 14. Jesus is coming to get us (those watching for Him) to take us to His home in heaven. DON'T be deceived! He could come TOMORROW, or this month or this year, 2013. He will surely come before anyone sees the antichrist beast of Rev. 13. He will surely come before any of the trumpet judgemnts. he will surely come before chapter 8 of Revelation. In fact, He will come for his bride before the great earthquake at the 6th seal.
lamad
Eric E Stahl said:
The Lord will take control of earth in the middle of the tribulation but not occupy the earth till the end of the tribulation.

[SIZE=14pt]Revelation 11:11-15[/SIZE]
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
It seems there is a slight misconception here. Yes, the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our LORD at the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint of the week; but the resurrection of the two witnesses will happen at the 7th vial, although written in chapter 11. It is written as a parenthesis, with no bearing on chronology. They BEGIN their witness 3 1/2 days before the 7th trumpet, continue their testimony for 1260 days, are killed 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial ends the week, and then are resurrected at the 7th vial. Their earthquake is the same earthquake found at the 7th vial. All five of the time periods mentioned in Rev. (42 months, 1260 days, time, times and half of time) will end at or very near the 7th vial that ends the week. Good post, Eric. Lamad
 

Eric E Stahl

New Member
May 28, 2013
388
13
0
Pa. USA
God will choose the antichrist and put him in power by causeing everyone that heard the truth of the gospel and rejected Jesus to believe the antichrist's lies.


2 Thessalonians 2:6-12
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

Rocky Wiley

Active Member
Aug 28, 2012
929
156
43
83
Southeast USA
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Rocky Wiley.


Right off the bat, we have a problem.

1. Yeshua` did NOT say that He came to fulfill all that was written about Him. That is a fallacy of your thinking. With a starting premise such as that, you are BOUND to have problems later in your reasoning.

2. When Yeshua` told his students that the temple would be destroyed, they weren't saying they "knew he was speaking of the end of the age" when they asked Him about the end of the age; this were simply asking for more information in ADDITION TO the temple being destroyed. You're reading more into the text than the text gives!

3 & 4. This "age of law" and "age of grace" nonsense is PURE DISPENSATIONALISM! There's NO SUCH THING as an "age of law" or an "age of grace!" Those are FABRICATED labels! In EVERY "age," God deals with all people exactly the same way: By grace, through faith, and by blood! David knew and spoke about justification through God's declaration of righteousness, and Avraham was justified by His faith! In fact, all of those mentioned in the Faith Chapter (chapter 11) of Hebrews were justified by their faith, not by any deeds done in service of the Torah (the "Law")!

5. Who knows more about the Tanakh than a Jewish theologian? LOTS of Jewish rabbis together as a group! One person can be in error, but a group tends to keep each other in check, like opposing forces on a force table in a physics lab, they counterbalance one another (except in the ONE area they ALL continue to stumble over - the Rock of Offense or the Tripping Stone, Yeshua`)!

6. The 1st century definition of "generation" is a far cry away from the modern definition of the term. For proof of that, simply count the "generations" (as we define the term) in the lineage of Yeshua` through His adopted father, Yosef, comparing what is written in Matthew 1 with the genealogies of the Torah (Genesis through Deuteronomy), Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel, 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, and Daniel. You will find several apparent discrepancies in the number of "generations" UNTIL you learn to re-define what a "generation" is.

A generation as the term is used in the first century is anytime there is a change in direction between what God calls "good" and "evil." When one "does what is right in God's sight," and the next person "does what is evil in the sight of God," then that is a "generation," and vice versa. When one "does what is right in God's sight," and the next person does the same, they are still in the same generation. Also, when one "does what is evil in God's sight" and the next person does the same, they too are still in the same generation.

In the northern ten tribes of Isra'el, their kings were ALWAYS doing what was evil in God's sight because NONE of them would remove the idols that Jereboam established in the lands of Efrayim and Dan. This is why they were driven out of the Land first!

However, the kings in the southern kingdom of Y'hudah (Judah or Judaea) were constantly flip-flopping back and forth between right and evil. There, the first century concept of "generation" more closely resembles the modern concept of "generation," ... but not perfectly. Hence, there are apparent "gaps" in the list of "generations," whenever the son keeps the same opinion as that of the father.

Lastly, Yeshua` said that His Kingdom was "not of this world-SYSTEM (Greek: kosmos)," NOT "not of this earth!" In other words, His followers would not be living a dog-eat-dog, scratch-your-way-to-the-top kind of look-out-for-number-one mentality! Instead, Yeshua` said that whoever would be greatest, would be the least and a servant to all. THAT is what He meant, not that His Kingdom was in some ethereal, other-dimension called "Heaven!"

Of COURSE we can believe Yeshua`! We just can't always trust what OTHER PEOPLE SAY that Yeshua` said! The truth is that your opinions come from YOU! Whether you have arrived at your own conclusions based on what sounds right to you or whether you follow what someone else had to say to you and taught you, your opinions are your own. See, Yeshua` did NOT say that He would return in judgment in His disciples' generation. That, too, is a fabricated notion that did NOT come from the Scriptures directly but came from someone's FILTER of the Scriptures!
Retro,

Jesus did indeed say that he had come to fulfill all things.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

"heaven and earth" is understood by the Jews to be speaking of God and man, the temple and Jerusalem. Jesus did not correct the disciples for asking the question "when would the end of the age come?" he just went right on explaining the things they would see before it happened.

Let us not split hairs on what 'age of law or age of grace' is, for all understand the meanings The old 'heaven and earth' did pass away but the bible says this age is with end.

Jesus can not tell a lie, that is the one thing God can not do. If we don't agree with God's word it is because we are looking at it from a natural point of view, not a spiritual one. When Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, he meant it is spiritual. Let's try to ask ourselves what the word might mean if it is spiritual, as it really is.
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
Rocky Wiley said:
Retro,

Jesus did indeed say that he had come to fulfill all things.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

"heaven and earth" is understood by the Jews to be speaking of God and man, the temple and Jerusalem. Jesus did not correct the disciples for asking the question "when would the end of the age come?" he just went right on explaining the things they would see before it happened.

Let us not split hairs on what 'age of law or age of grace' is, for all understand the meanings The old 'heaven and earth' did pass away but the bible says this age is with end.

Jesus can not tell a lie, that is the one thing God can not do. If we don't agree with God's word it is because we are looking at it from a natural point of view, not a spiritual one. When Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, he meant it is spiritual. Let's try to ask ourselves what the word might mean if it is spiritual, as it really is.
And what if there are two ages in the journey of each and every disciple?

Luke 20:34-36 RSV
34. And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage;
35. but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
36. for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


Strive therefore to enter through the narrow gate which is an entrance opened to each in his or her own appointed times. :)
 

Rocky Wiley

Active Member
Aug 28, 2012
929
156
43
83
Southeast USA
daq said:
And what if there are two ages in the journey of each and every disciple?

Luke 20:34-36 RSV
34. And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage;
35. but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,
36. for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.


Strive therefore to enter through the narrow gate which is an entrance opened to each in his or her own appointed times. :)
daq,

Jesus responded to them, that the sons of this age (law) marry. To those (of them) accounted worthy to make it to that age (grace) and to the resurrection (which would be at the time of the destruction of the temple) would now have eternal life.

We today can receive eternal life when we are born again of the water and the Spirit.