Pre Tribulation rapture of the Church

[Eric E Stahl]

Pre Tribulation Rapture

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; [SIZE=16pt]then sudden destruction cometh upon them[/SIZE], as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

[SIZE=14pt](((The church age saints will not go through the tribulation)))[/SIZE]

4[SIZE=16pt]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.[/SIZE]

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11[SIZE=16pt]Wherefore comfort yourselves together[/SIZE], and edify one another, even as also ye do.


2 Peter 3:10-14
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12[SIZE=16pt]Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God[/SIZE], wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

[SIZE=16pt](((Why)))[/SIZE]

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[SIZE=14pt](((So)))[/SIZE]

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[John S]

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture will NOT happen.
Jesus Christ said that "many will be deceived". He wasn't talking about the non-Chriatians or even atheists. He was talking about those people who claimed to be HIS followers.
People who believe in this have ALREADY been deceived and the Tribulation hasn't even started yet. I could state it in harsher terms but, at this time, I'd rather not.

If this line of thinking is NOT allowed on this site, then let me know now, so that I can leave gracefully, without being forced to leave.

 

[Trumpeter]

Lord, are you coming only for those who are looking for You (the Rapture)?



Thus says the Lord YahuShua: I am coming for those who are Mine, who I see of Myself in them, and for those little ones who remain in their innocence.
And of those, who carry Me within them, these look for My coming and know it is nigh, for they are fully awake in Me, and wait anxiously with kinked necks.
And those who truly love Me, yet gaze as one having man’s veil atop their heads, not believing those who are Mine will escape but will endure great tribulation, these shall also be taken according to that which their hearts reveal, in spite of their error, for these have also passed from judgment into the Light of Life. It is only the leaders in the churches of men, who led them astray, according to their own arrogance and false doctrine, who shall be left.

I search the hearts and minds! Says the Lord.​

​

​

Excerpt from:​

I Search the Hearts and Minds ​

http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=I_Search_the_Hearts_and_Minds​

 

[Eric E Stahl]

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture will NOT happen.
Jesus Christ said that "many will be deceived". He wasn't talking about the non-Chriatians or even atheists. He was talking about those people who claimed to be HIS followers.
People who believe in this have ALREADY been deceived and the Tribulation hasn't even started yet. I could state it in harsher terms but, at this time, I'd rather not.

If this line of thinking is NOT allowed on this site, then let me know now, so that I can leave gracefully, without being forced to leave.

John S,

If you speak with respect most forums will permit most points of views that are supported by scripture.

Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.

What is your opinion?

 

[John S]

Eric
1. A site that I just left did NOT allow this line of thinking. You HAD to believe what they wanted you to believe.
2. If I may ask - What part of PA are you from? I'm from Lehigh County.
3. I don't believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. Let's just say that I have reasons that will anger a few people - and since I JUST started here, that would NOT be a good way to start. Let me get a few posts under my belt first. Then I will go into more detail.
4. If anything, there will be a Post-Trib Rapture but by then, a Rapture would be academic - at least in my opinion.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Eric
1. A site that I just left did NOT allow this line of thinking. You HAD to believe what they wanted you to believe.
2. If I may ask - What part of PA are you from? I'm from Lehigh County.
3. I don't believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. Let's just say that I have reasons that will anger a few people - and since I JUST started here, that would NOT be a good way to start. Let me get a few posts under my belt first. Then I will go into more detail.
4. If anything, there will be a Post-Trib Rapture but by then, a Rapture would be academic - at least in my opinion.

I live about 50 miles north of Harrisburg.

This is what I believe.

[SIZE=18pt]Five Phases of the First Resurrection [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The Five Phases of the First Resurrection [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt](1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Psalms 68:18[/SIZE]KJV, Ephesians 4:8KJV

[SIZE=10pt](2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist is given power in the Christian nations. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-12KJV, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17[/SIZE]KJV also see John16:7-8KJV the Comforter in the church will reprove sin.

[SIZE=10pt](3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3, 7-14KJV, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7KJV who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4[/SIZE]KJV, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4KJV

[SIZE=10pt](4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4[/SIZE]KJV

[SIZE=10pt](5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15[/SIZE]KJV



And you were weried. And I can't spell either.

 

[ENOCH2010]

Only 2 resurrections The first resurrection at the start of the millennial reign and then 1000 years later The second resurrection

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Only 2 resurrections The first resurrection at the start of the millennial reign and then 1000 years later The second resurrection

The two witnesses will be redeemed in the middle of the tribulation in view of the whole world. Revelation chapter 11.

 

[John S]

Eric - If I read your post correctly, you believe that there will be THREE Raptures - pre - mid - AND post. Is that correct?
Your belief - and the belief of virtually everyone, is that the Elect will consist of 144,000 Jews. That is NOT correct. It will consist of 12,000 Jews and the rest will be Christians. I probably will have to start my thread soon to explain my thinking.

So you live near Williamsport. I don't know how it is near you, but here it is raining fairly hard.

 

[Trumpeter]

Sasha asked this question during study, regarding this quote from The Lord, ”Turn now from the churches for it is finished; the bride is prepared and shall soon be taken out from among them.”: Is this only the people in the churches, or everyone? Because I was thinking of others that don’t go to church, just some random person, they could repent and turn to The Lord today, and be raptured tomorrow... Right? (If the Rapture happened tomorrow).


This is what The Lord says: Beloved, you have seen well, yet only as one who abides in the world, while having blurred vision... No one can see as The Lord sees, nor are you able to look upon the heart. Those prepared and bundled will be taken, both the first and the second of My harvest... Yet of the first, it is finished...


My bride is prepared and awaits My hand...

And lo, My hand is indeed proceeding forth,
Even as My voice calls to her already.


Behold, I tell you a wonderful thing... Your children know already, and have heard, and in their dreams they reach toward Heaven, with arms outstretched... They know Me... And long to return to the place, from which they came and has always been theirs. In the same way, all My children of the first harvest, though they have come of age, know Me, and stretch forth their hands... Some running, while others are just now standing up. Behold, even those in the grave will soon reach forth and fly away.


Therefore, the first of many is finished...

The lowly, of the lowly, will be taken...

Every person, in whom I see of Myself,
And every innocent child, in whom I dwell, having never departed...

Behold, even the mentally handicapped shall be taken,
And made whole in an instant, to the glory of The Father!


Therefore, trust in Me, and believe My words also, though you can only see in part and your understanding is restrained. Believe in ME! Trust in MY ways, for the will of The Father is manifest through Me. And I am that Light, which is shown in the darkness, yet remains apart from the world... For I am set apart in glory, even as The Father is set apart in glory, the power of which has no limits and has always been... Even from everlasting to everlasting, I AM... From which I have also loved you.


Even everyone, who will come to Me, is come already,
And will yet come running...

For those, made for Me, were created in My image, and can in no wise depart...

For they remain with Me, always, where I am...


For I AM, and you are in life because of Me,
And My life has no end.

Excerpt from:
The First of Many
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=The_First_of_Many

 

[Brothertom]

Your holding on to doctrinal dogma, hammering this false believe into your perceived theology. This is what Jesus said, directly & clearly.

"Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [ He does not return twice, does He? ]
Then there is a rapture...a parousia, a gathering......

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

It is direct, clear & simple...& given so that we might fear & prepare & have oil for our lamps in this soon coming dark night. It is not wrath, but a test, a trial, that must come upon the whole Earth.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

To All,

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SIZE=14pt]2 Thessalonians 2:6-12[/SIZE]
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

Eric - If I read your post correctly, you believe that there will be THREE Raptures - pre - mid - AND post. Is that correct?
Your belief - and the belief of virtually everyone, is that the Elect will consist of 144,000 Jews. That is NOT correct. It will consist of 12,000 Jews and the rest will be Christians. I probably will have to start my thread soon to explain my thinking.

So you live near Williamsport. I don't know how it is near you, but here it is raining fairly hard.

I believe there will be 5 phases of the first resurrection for the righteous and 1 resurrection of the sinners.

I live 50 miles north of Harrisburg.

 

[ENOCH2010]

To All,

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SIZE=14pt]2 Thessalonians 2:6-12[/SIZE]
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

I believe there will be 5 phases of the first resurrection for the righteous and 1 resurrection of the sinners.

I live 50 miles north of Harrisburg.

What about all the people that read the Bible after the pre-trib rapture, when they read the verse about the comforter never leaving us nor forsaking us. Somebody will have to remove that verse or the word will be untrue. We all know the Bible says Heaven and earth will pass away but my word will never pass away.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

What about all the people that read the Bible after the pre-trib rapture, when they read the verse about the comforter never leaving us nor forsaking us. Somebody will have to remove that verse or the word will be untrue. We all know the Bible says Heaven and earth will pass away but my word will never pass away.

The tribulation saints won't get sealed by the Holy Sirit so he won't leave them.

Your holding on to doctrinal dogma, hammering this false believe into your perceived theology. This is what Jesus said, directly & clearly.

"Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [ He does not return twice, does He? ]
Then there is a rapture...a parousia, a gathering......

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

It is direct, clear & simple...& given so that we might fear & prepare & have oil for our lamps in this soon coming dark night. It is not wrath, but a test, a trial, that must come upon the whole Earth.

Brothertom,

The Lord will come to earth at the middle of the tribulation to make a way for Israel to escape the armies of the world which will be lead by the antichrist and Satan. The mount of Olives will swallow the army of antichrist like the Red Sea swollowed Egypt's army.Revelation 12:15-17


[SIZE=10pt]Zechariah 14:1-5[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]3[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](((At the middle of the tribulation)))[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]4[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]5[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt](((Israel will flee at the middle of the tribulation when Satan is cast to the earth at the middle of the tribulation Revelation 12:7-14)))[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (((At the end of the tribulation)))[/SIZE]

 

[Axehead]

To All,

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SIZE=14pt]2 Thessalonians 2:6-12[/SIZE]
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

I believe there will be 5 phases of the first resurrection for the righteous and 1 resurrection of the sinners.

I live 50 miles north of Harrisburg.

II. "Rapture" in premillennial/dispensational eschatology and theology
A. The "catching up" of believers, the Church, was separated in time from the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to earth in the teaching of the Plymouth Brethren of Britain, creating a two-phase Second Coming of Christ.
1. Rapture - Jesus' coming for His saints
2. Revelation - Jesus' coming with His saints

B. Illustrations

C. History of this interpretation
1. Margaret MacDonald (1830) - personal prophecy in Glasgow
2. Edward Irving (1832) - Scottish charismatic preacher
3. John Nelson Darby - Irish lawyer and Plymouth Brethren leader
4. James H. Brookes - American Presbyterian preacher
5. Dwight L. Moody - Moody Bible Institute
6. C.I. Scofield - Scofield Bible
7. Dallas Theological Seminary (Chafer, Ironside, Ryrie, Walvoord)
8. Hal Lindsey - Late, Great Planet Earth
9. Popular interpretation of fundamentalist evangelicals

D. Variant opinions of the time of "rapture" among premillennialists
1. Pre-tribulation rapture - church removed from tribulation
2. Mid-tribulation rapture - church removed prior to severe tribulation
3. Pre-wrath rapture - (variant of mid-tribulation rapture)
4. Post-tribulation rapture - church endures tribulation
5. Partial tribulation - faithful remnant of Christians removed at beginning of tribulation; others removed later

E. Elements of "rapture" in pretribulation, premillennial dispensationalism
1. Two-phase second-coming
2. Imminence - any time, any moment, soon coming
3. Silent, secret, invisible disappearance of Christians

III. Concluding observations concerning the "rapture"
A. Affirming the reality of being "caught up with Christ" (I Thess. 4:17)
1. Semantic irrelevance of using the word "rapture"
2. Maintaining the hope of Christ's return

B. Questioning the elements of pretribulational premillennial "rapture"
1. Inadequate basis for two-phase Second Coming
a. "caught up," "meet," descend" same time period
b. final judgment
2. Inadequate basis for imminence of expectation
a. His return is impending
b. His return will be sudden, unannounced
c. Christians are to be expectant, prepared, waiting and watching
3. Inadequate basis for secret rapture
a. His return will be public
b. His return will be visible
4. Inadequate basis for silent rapture
a. His return will be with shout
b. His return will be with trumpet
5. Improper claims of new revelation

C. Avoiding the effects of pretribulational premillennial "rapture"
1. divisiveness, intolerance, disunity
2. arrogance, pride, superiority, gnosticism
3. escapist mentality, avoidance, withdrawal
4. negative attitude toward society; disengaged
5. inadequate ecclesiology; ghetto mentality; church relegated to tossing out life-savers

Source: ChristInYou

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Erik,

Having questioned the meaning of 'heaven and earth' when Jesus spoke to the disciples in Matthew 24. It has been determined that Jesus was speaking about the place where man and God would meet. At the time Jesus walked here on earth and until the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem that is what he was speaking about, the temple in Jerusalem. The Jews understood this and most still do today. There were three times it speaks of this place, Abraham went there to sacrifice Isaac, Jacob had his vision there, and the temple was built there.

Matthew 24 speaks of the destruction of that temple and it happened in 70 AD. One can see that when Jesus said the temple would be destroyed, the disciples asked 'when shall these things be, the sign of thy coming and the end of the age'?

In 1 Thessionians scripture 1-3 you quoted, it speaks of that coming upon 'them', the Jews in Jerusalem.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Eric.

To All,

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SIZE=14pt]2 Thessalonians 2:6-12[/SIZE]
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

I believe there will be 5 phases of the first resurrection for the righteous and 1 resurrection of the sinners.

I live 50 miles north of Harrisburg.

As a person who used to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I sympathize with your confusion. Please allow me to reason with you on this point.

First, in order to understand that the "he that letteth" who will be "taken out of the way" is NOT the Holy Spirit, let's establish a few points:

You say that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, right?
And, you know that the Holy Spirit is God, right?
Do you believe that God is omnipresent - that is, everywhere at the same time?
If not, then we have a problem; that kind of a God is not big enough, according to the Scriptures.
If so, then you must ask yourself, "How did Yeshua` (Jesus) send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, if He's everywhere at the same time?

Your answer to this question will be why He cannot be the "he that letteth" who will be "taken out of the way." He was never "sent" in such a way that He needs to be "taken out of the way."

Thus, the "he that letteth" is ...? (Your turn)

Shabbat shalom, Rocky Wiley.

Erik,

Having questioned the meaning of 'heaven and earth' when Jesus spoke to the disciples in Matthew 24. It has been determined that Jesus was speaking about the place where man and God would meet. At the time Jesus walked here on earth and until the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem that is what he was speaking about, the temple in Jerusalem. The Jews understood this and most still do today. There were three times it speaks of this place, Abraham went there to sacrifice Isaac, Jacob had his vision there, and the temple was built there.

Matthew 24 speaks of the destruction of that temple and it happened in 70 AD. One can see that when Jesus said the temple would be destroyed, the disciples asked 'when shall these things be, the sign of thy coming and the end of the age'?

In 1 Thessionians scripture 1-3 you quoted, it speaks of that coming upon 'them', the Jews in Jerusalem.

"Determined" by whom?! Yeshua` was most definitely NOT talking about the Temple when He said,..

Maththaion 24:35
35 Ho ouranos kai hee gee pareleusetai, hoi de logoi mou ou mee parelthoosin.
The Greek New Testament

35 Ho = 35 The
ouranos = sky
kai = and
hee = the
gee = earth
pareleusetai, = shall-come-near-and-pass-on,
hoi = the
de = but
logoi = words
mou = of-me
ou = not (positively)
mee = not (negatively)
parelthoosin. = shall-come-near-and-pass-on.

35 The sky and the earth shall-come-near-and-pass-on, the but words of-me not (positively) not (negatively) shall-come-near-and-pass-on.

35 The sky and the earth shall come near and pass on, but the words of me shall not at all come near and pass on.

35 The sky and the earth shall come near and pass on, but my words shall in no wise come near and pass on.

Nor was Kefa (Peter):


2 Peter 3:1-13
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Be careful with your opinions! An opinion wrongly stated comes out sounding like a LIE!

 

[Axehead]

Shabbat shalom, Eric.


As a person who used to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I sympathize with your confusion. Please allow me to reason with you on this point.

First, in order to understand that the "he that letteth" who will be "taken out of the way" is NOT the Holy Spirit, let's establish a few points:

You say that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, right?
And, you know that the Holy Spirit is God, right?
Do you believe that God is omnipresent - that is, everywhere at the same time?
If not, then we have a problem; that kind of a God is not big enough, according to the Scriptures.
If so, then you must ask yourself, "How did Yeshua` (Jesus) send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, if He's everywhere at the same time?

Your answer to this question will be why He cannot be the "he that letteth" who will be "taken out of the way." He was never "sent" in such a way that He needs to be "taken out of the way."

Thus, the "he that letteth" is ...? (Your turn)

Shabbat shalom, Rocky Wiley.

And to add to that, if the Holy Spirit is taken out then who could be saved? There is no drawing to God or salvation without the Holy Spirit.

Some think Michael the Archangel is the one that is restraining and then "taken out of the way". That is a lot more plausible than the Holy Spirit.

Dan_12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Michael: Dan_10:13; Jud_1:9; Rev_12:7

Michael is much more plausible to me than the Holy Spirit.

Axehead

 

[7angels]

Shabbat shalom, Eric.


As a person who used to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, I sympathize with your confusion. Please allow me to reason with you on this point.

First, in order to understand that the "he that letteth" who will be "taken out of the way" is NOT the Holy Spirit, let's establish a few points:

You say that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, right?
And, you know that the Holy Spirit is God, right?
Do you believe that God is omnipresent - that is, everywhere at the same time?
If not, then we have a problem; that kind of a God is not big enough, according to the Scriptures.
If so, then you must ask yourself, "How did Yeshua` (Jesus) send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, if He's everywhere at the same time?

Your answer to this question will be why He cannot be the "he that letteth" who will be "taken out of the way." He was never "sent" in such a way that He needs to be "taken out of the way."

Thus, the "he that letteth" is ...? (Your turn)

shalom retrobyter

first let go over your questions.

First, in order to understand that the "he that letteth" who will be "taken out of the way" is NOT the Holy Spirit, let's establish a few points:

You say that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, right?
that is correct
And, you know that the Holy Spirit is God, right?
that is correct
Do you believe that God is omnipresent - that is, everywhere at the same time?
yes i agree with this too.
If not, then we have a problem; that kind of a God is not big enough, according to the Scriptures.
If so, then you must ask yourself, "How did Yeshua` (Jesus) send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, if He's everywhere at the same time?
here is where i see the problem occurring. first off remember that when Jesus told us that he must leave so the comforter can come that Jesus was a man at that time. Jesus was not all knowing and everywhere at the same time while he was a man. when Jesus died and went back to being God is when he gained back the abilities of God. the Holy Spirit was sent to comfort us while Jesus was finishing up what was required of him to go back to being with the father.

God bless

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Shabbat shalom, Rocky Wiley.


"Determined" by whom?! Yeshua` was most definitely NOT talking about the Temple when He said,..

Maththaion 24:35
35 Ho ouranos kai hee gee pareleusetai, hoi de logoi mou ou mee parelthoosin.
The Greek New Testament

35 Ho = 35 The
ouranos = sky
kai = and
hee = the
gee = earth
pareleusetai, = shall-come-near-and-pass-on,
hoi = the
de = but
logoi = words
mou = of-me
ou = not (positively)
mee = not (negatively)
parelthoosin. = shall-come-near-and-pass-on.

35 The sky and the earth shall-come-near-and-pass-on, the but words of-me not (positively) not (negatively) shall-come-near-and-pass-on.

35 The sky and the earth shall come near and pass on, but the words of me shall not at all come near and pass on.

35 The sky and the earth shall come near and pass on, but my words shall in no wise come near and pass on.

Nor was Kefa (Peter):


2 Peter 3:1-13
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV

Be careful with your opinions! An opinion wrongly stated comes out sounding like a LIE!

Retro,

Things we know without a great deal of study.

1. Jesus said he had come to fulfill all that had been written of him. That included Daniel's prophecy.

2. When Jesus told his disciples the temple would be destroyed, thay knew he was speaking of the end of the age for as stated earlier, they ask, 'when will thise things be, what will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age.

3. The age the disciples lived in was in the age of law.

4. We live in the age of grace, or the church age.

5. Jewish theologian, Rachel Adelman, has written an article of Jacob's vision the foundation of the World. Who knows more about the old testament than a Jewish theologian? Certainly not most Christians.
http://www.racheladelman.com/article/

6. Jesus told the Pharisees that judgement was coming upon them and their generation, not our generation.

My opinions don't come from men, they come from God's word. If Jesus said he would return in judgement in the disciples generation and some of them would not have passed away before he had done that, then we need to translate the rest of the bible with understanding that Jesus can not lie and we can not say he did not return just because man did not record it.

Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world.

Can we believe Jesus?