Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Please allow the following synopsis:

Daniel 11
Daniel 11 is NOT an ancient prophecy.

1. The 10:1 context demands a Babylonian era.
2. Darius was the LAST Babylonian king, thus he had to be "strengthened".
3. The "three more" and "fourth" speak to the Silver - Medo/Persian; Bronze - Grecian; Iron - Roman; and Clay - "divided".
4. Newton readily discounted a Hellenistic fulfillment, and wrote a Roman fulfillment which also failed. Thus he refused to publish.
5. The prophecy is contiguous. (I.e., there is no "pause" between an ancient fulfillment and an end-time fulfillment.)
6. Daniel 2:39 explains the significance of "Greece".
7. Daniel's Chapters 5, 6, & 9 confirm Darius as a Babylonian king.
8. Daniel 7 agrees that the Lion, Bear, & Leopard (actually a "Tiger") are concurrent, corresponding with the King of the South, the King of the North, and the Kings of the East.
9. Daniel 7 agrees that the "dreadful" will be judged, corresponding with the verse 45 "he", -- United Nations --, judgement.
10. History confirms the Scriptural specifics as a modern interpretation.

Dan 11
1, While you are correct that v.1 establishes the dating for the vision, the Man in Linen (Jesus) says in 10:14 that it concerns the future yet to come.
2. If you're trying to reference "gabar" in Daniel 9:27, you're relying on a flawed King James Version for that word meaning.
3. Negative. The fourth is Alexander the Great and the four kingdoms which result formed afterward during the Greek reign. The generational battles of the Ptolemy and Seleucids over a 150 years are covered in so much succinct detail in vv 5-30, that critics of Daniel cite it as being historical rather than prophetic.
4. Newton is not the defining word on Bible commentary and he's not here to present and defend his ideas.
5. Negative. Gabriel inserts three events which happen after the one 'seven.' The first is the cutting off of the Messiah. The second happened nearly forty years later with the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. The third is still ongoing - war will continue until the end of the one 'seven.' War is still with us today. Gaps exist in prophecy all the time in the Bible. No one narrative complete in listing everything that will happen.
6. The fact that Greek conquered the "whole" world relates only to its affect as it pertains to Israel and its surrounding environs. Neither China, who had just as great as an empire was affected, nor were the Americas or sub-Sahara Africa affected. You have to be careful being a Western-trained person in the technical language of English to read Hebrew in an ultra-literal, legalistic manner. Their standards are not ours. The fact as stated in the Bible is true even though Greece didn't conquer the WHOLE world - AND this does not make Greece the fourth terrible beast. Greece already has an animal symbol for it: the goat, which is a clean animal by the way...
7. And the point you are trying to make is?
8. Actually, none of the reference books I have, the NASB Exhaustive Concordance, Brown-Driver-Briggs, nor Strongs' define the Aramaic H5245 any different than they do H5246 - it is a leopard. You're alone in saying it's a tiger. You will stay that way as I will not join you on just the basis of what you say. Furthermore, I disagree that the three animals in Daniel 7 equate to three directional Kingdoms of the end-times. In Rev 13:2, they are shown to make up the fourth terrible beast, and in Daniel 7:12, the component nations of that greater federation survive the decapitation of the fourth when the anti-Christ and false prophet are captured alive at Armageddon. The King of the North must be victorious at that battle before Jesus and the 144,000 defeat him so as to gain the whole world.
9. While both are speaking of the anti-Christ, you're entirely on your own to assign the United Nations to that role. I do not agree with you. Isaiah 14 describes a single person trudging through the land of the dead on his way to eternal damnation.
10. This statement of yours has no particular point to address; it is just your conclusion in favor of your brand of eschatology, whatever that may be (I don't know - yet).

 

[shturt678]

Zec 6:1 I looked up again, and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains—mountains of bronze. 2 The first chariot had red horses, the second black, 3 the third white, and the fourth dappled—all of them powerful. 4 I asked the angel who was speaking to me, "What are these, my lord?"
5 The angel answered me, "These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world. 6 The one with the black horses is going toward the north country, the one with the white horses toward the west, and the one with the dappled horses toward the south."
7 When the powerful horses went out, they were straining to go throughout the earth. And he said, "Go throughout the earth!" So they went throughout the earth.
8 Then he called to me, "Look, those going toward the north country have given my Spirit rest in the land of the north."

Zechariah sees these four horsemen coming out of Heaven all together - (Revelation reveals their order) - and no less an authority says they are four spirits of heaven.

I should have said something sooner (always have agaped these visions), ie, Zech.6:1-8 brings back old memories which firmed up Rev.6:2-8 long ago. The colors of the four horses indicate the destination of the chariots, to execute judgment upon the enemies of the "Kingdom of God." Rev.6:2-8, to execute judgment upon the enemies of the "Kingdom of God."

The 4th chariot is drawn by white horses, to point to the glorious victories of the ministers of the divine judgment.

Save the last for my end point: Zech.6:8, the chariots are designed to carry God the Holy Spirit, there was nothing with which they could be more suitably compared than the winds (ruach) of heaven, for these are the most appropriate earthly substratum to symbolize the working of the Divine Spirit (cf. Jer.49:36 & Dan.7:2). In Rev.6:2 it's the Scriptures that ride forth where the Divine Spirit also speaks through the Scriptures.



So between you and an Angel, I'm going to go with the higher authority. Remember: don't believe everything you think.

<snip> only for clarity

Old Jack's opinion

btw all that the N.T. borrows from the O.T. is used in an independent way, and doesn't govern any interpretation in the N.T. The O.T. passages adds 'depth' to the N.T. interpretationS.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

My mistake on Dan 9 #2 - that response was meant for Dan 11's #2 point.

In your original Dan 9 #2 - is refuted by Daniel in 9:2 - HE references the fact that he is reading Jeremiah - which had not yet been accepted as Scriptural at that time - as his source book.

The seven times seventy comes from Leviticus 26:18, but God turns that around to seventy 'sevens.'

Please accept the following response:

1. The years are literal years, as validated by the Prophetic Psalms,

I don't have time to go over all your points, and I'm not going to allow you to have me respond in depth without you addressing my rebuttals to your original points.

Nor is this thread about what you think with all your various 'this means that' and 'that means this' interpretations. I am simply not going to let you tilt the field to your viewpoint.

This thread is about the Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events. If you want to expound on your interpretations, start up your own DaDad thread, and if I wish to respond, I will do it there.

Now if you have some valid, constructive criticism of my Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events - I will gladly look into it after I return from my recurrent training.

I should have said something sooner (always have agaped these visions), ie, Zech.6:1-8 brings back old memories which firmed up Rev.6:2-8 long ago. The colors of the four horses indicate the destination of the chariots, to execute judgment upon the enemies of the "Kingdom of God." Rev.6:2-8, to execute judgment upon the enemies of the "Kingdom of God."

The 4th chariot is drawn by white horses, to point to the glorious victories of the ministers of the divine judgment.

Save the last for my end point: Zech.6:8, the chariots are designed to carry God the Holy Spirit, there was nothing with which they could be more suitably compared than the winds (ruach) of heaven, for these are the most appropriate earthly substratum to symbolize the working of the Divine Spirit (cf. Jer.49:36 & Dan.7:2). In Rev.6:2 it's the Scriptures that ride forth where the Divine Spirit also speaks through the Scriptures.

1. Nothing in the Bible supports your conclusion that these horsemen are there to "execute judgment."

2. The white horsemen is never said to be fourth. Indeed, in Revelation he is called out first.

3. The Angel in Zec 6 does not say they carry God's Holy Spirit. Nor does John write Jesus as saying it's the Scriptures that ride forth.

Now I have answered your points - but you have still to address the topic of this thread which is the Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events. Please stay on topic if you can.

3. & 4. Per Young, Keit, & Kliefoth (per Walvoord, "Daniel The Key To Prophetic Revelation"), Daniel used the unusual "shibiym" inconcise Masculine gender text for the "weeks". For the seventieth, "week" he used "shabuwa" concise Feminie gender text.

Sort of a moot point. Daniel is the only time this word is pluralized in the opposite gender, which may refer to "weeks" rather than "sevens."

...the masculine plural with the meaning "weeks" and not "sevens," has
been discovered in the Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Elisha
Qimron notes that the masculine plural form appears in
the Manual of Discipline (1QS) 10:7,8, alongside the feminine plural
"SEVENTY WEEKS" IN DANIEL 9:24. He also points out that "the masculine plural suffix
-im (-y in construct) is sometimes added to feminine [singular]
nouns. . . .'" In any case, this use of both masculine and feminine
plural terminations in Qumran texts as'well as in the OT indicates
that the Hebrew noun for "weeks" existed in both of the plural gender
forms in postbiblical Hebrew as well as in biblical Hebrew.
This Hebrew usage from Qumran is thus a supporting basis in our
pursuit of the meaning of double-gender plurals.

http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=863&journal=1&type=pdf

Furthermore, when I look at the best Hebrew scholars today from the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament by Harris, Archer Jr,, and Waltke - the accredited author writer, Gary G. Cohen, Th.D. of Clearwater Christian College in Clearwater, Florida, makes no such complaint about the word meaning changing from one instance to the other in relation to the overall prophetic context of the seventy 'sevens' of Daniel 9;24-27.

 

[DaDad]

Hi Marcus,

I don't have time to go over all your points, and I'm not going to allow you to have me respond

I did not intend to derail your Topic, but simply point out that a seven-year Tribulation is a False doctrine, and that your assertions regarding Daniel 11 are based upon a False rendering of that end-time prophecy.

If you wish to ignore this advice, then please do so. If you wish to pursue a single point (without the confusion of addressing multiple points), please do so. If you wish to "trust" me, PLEASE DO NOT, for 1 Cor. 14 tell us to judge the "prophets", and this requires a full hearing of the evidence.



In the meantime, please consider the simplest of proofs, that being the Daniel 2 which I threw into the discussion, to prove to you that if the commentators can't grasp the simple concepts, the difficult will be much more elusive:

And finally, (as an expanse of your presentation), I would propose that the commentators have also misrepresented the Daniel 2 sequence, (and thereby Daniel 7), in which there are not 1,2,3,4a/4b, but FIVE distinct empires:

Dan. 2
41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom
45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE

So which is it, a non-Kingdom as the 4b would assert, or a KINGDOM which verse 41 demands.
And if 4,3,5,2,1, then what is the Intelligent Design of that sequence? -- Is GOD less Intelligent that GM, when they provide a 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2, firing order?!?


But once again, you've done very well with the rest of your presentation!


With Best Regards,
DD



PS If you'll allow, I've posted the Daniel 9 difficulties previously, and provide them here again for your quick reference:

1. Per Walvoord: "...Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”, P.218

2. Per Walvoord: "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

3. Per Walvoord: "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

4. Per Montgomery: "... efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology.", P. 217

5. Per Walvoord: "Some amillenarians, however, use a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks but an indefinite period for the last seven years, as in the case of Philip Mauro...", P. 218

6. Per Montgomery: "... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217

7. Per Young, regarding "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem": "This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." , P. 224 -

John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971


8. Per Newton: "We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewton.ca/daniel_apocalypse/pt1ch10.html

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

[SIZE=medium]Americans want to get to the point. [/SIZE]

10,000 words is not how to get to the point

(with all respect)

 

[shturt678]

My mistake on Dan 9 #2 - that response was meant for Dan 11's #2 point.

In your original Dan 9 #2 - is refuted by Daniel in 9:2 - HE references the fact that he is reading Jeremiah - which had not yet been accepted as Scriptural at that time - as his source book.

The seven times seventy comes from Leviticus 26:18, but God turns that around to seventy 'sevens.'


I don't have time to go over all your points, and I'm not going to allow you to have me respond in depth without you addressing my rebuttals to your original points.

Nor is this thread about what you think with all your various 'this means that' and 'that means this' interpretations. I am simply not going to let you tilt the field to your viewpoint.

This thread is about the Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events. If you want to expound on your interpretations, start up your own DaDad thread, and if I wish to respond, I will do it there.

Now if you have some valid, constructive criticism of my Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events - I will gladly look into it after I return from my recurrent training.


1. Nothing in the Bible supports your conclusion that these horsemen are there to "execute judgment."

2. The white horsemen is never said to be fourth. Indeed, in Revelation he is called out first.

3. The Angel in Zec 6 does not say they carry God's Holy Spirit. Nor does John write Jesus as saying it's the Scriptures that ride forth.

Now I have answered your points - but you have still to address the topic of this thread which is the Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events. Please stay on topic if you can.


Thank you for caring and your response!

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]My litmus test on these threads is when another's back is to the wall, they quickly state - 1st page sort of thing - "stay on topic," ie, Zechariah has always been in my backyard especially regarding the visions and God, the Angel of the Lord in Zechariah. I could simply and easily refute your refute, however will let you slide on this one - I already have too many irritated with me, and don't need another. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Old Jack's opinion [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]btw only to humbly help you sir, ie, Zech.6:2 for example which has to do with "Pre-wrath" (preliminary judgments of God's wrath) due to "black" is he color of grief (cf. "black as sackcloth of hair," Rev.6:12). The rider upon the black horse is Rev.6:5, 6, holds in his hand the emblem of dearness, the milder form of famine. Only to help you sir then will back off so you don't get too irritated. Consequently the colors of the horses indicate the destination of the chariots, "Pre-wrath" (preliminary judgments of God's wrath) to execute judgment upon the enemies of the Kingdom of God and will leave you with the "red horse" as could be conveying "wars" as in Rev.6:4. Will bow out of this thread for now, however will be following along so can learn. Thank you again, ie, appreciate you and your words sir.[/SIZE]

]]Sort of a moot point. Daniel is the only time this word is pluralized in the opposite gender, which may refer to "weeks" rather than "sevens."

...the masculine plural with the meaning "weeks" and not "sevens," has
been discovered in the Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Elisha
Qimron notes that the masculine plural form appears in
the Manual of Discipline (1QS) 10:7,8, alongside the feminine plural
"SEVENTY WEEKS" IN DANIEL 9:24. He also points out that "the masculine plural suffix
-im (-y in construct) is sometimes added to feminine [singular]
nouns. . . .'" In any case, this use of both masculine and feminine
plural terminations in Qumran texts as'well as in the OT indicates
that the Hebrew noun for "weeks" existed in both of the plural gender
forms in postbiblical Hebrew as well as in biblical Hebrew.
This Hebrew usage from Qumran is thus a supporting basis in our
pursuit of the meaning of double-gender plurals.

http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=863&journal=1&type=pdf

Furthermore, when I look at the best Hebrew scholars today from the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament by Harris, Archer Jr,, and Waltke - the accredited author writer, Gary G. Cohen, Th.D. of Clearwater Christian College in Clearwater, Florida, makes no such complaint about the word meaning changing from one instance to the other in relation to the overall prophetic context of the seventy 'sevens' of Daniel 9;24-27.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

10,000 words is not how to get to the point

(with all respect)

Sorry! But compared to 400 hundred pages, I just took you through all the major linear narratives and gave you a complete outline of my Pre-Wrath eschatology.

I did not intend to derail your Topic, but simply point out that a seven-year Tribulation is a False doctrine, and that your assertions regarding Daniel 11 are based upon a False rendering of that end-time prophecy.

If you wish to ignore this advice, then please do so. If you wish to pursue a single point (without the confusion of addressing multiple points), please do so. If you wish to "trust" me, PLEASE DO NOT, for 1 Cor. 14 tell us to judge the "prophets", and this requires a full hearing of the evidence.

In the meantime, please consider the simplest of proofs, that being the Daniel 2 which I threw into the discussion, to prove to you that if the commentators can't grasp the simple concepts, the difficult will be much more elusive:

PS If you'll allow, I've posted the Daniel 9 difficulties previously, and provide them here again for your quick reference:

Before I start, thank you for the compliments. I don't want it to be lost in the perpetual debate that I appreciate honest criticism and sincere approbation.

First point: this is the second time you've brought up some supposed error on my part about what many refer as the 'tribulation period.' I have not written anything such as that in my "10,000 words," and I am at a loss as to how you could not see that I place the Great Tribulation after the midpoint abomination as Jesus does in the Olivet Discourse, and I truncate it with the sudden, and otherwise unknown Day of The Lord. Thus I cannot adhere to a seven year tribulation as some do. It is not a false doctrine, because it is not a strict doctrinal issue; it is just a common mistake many make in eschatology.

Secondly, I do not share your opinion that a thorough discussion of the prophets is the gist of what Paul is conveying to the young Church at Corinth. Therefore, unwarranted side issues do not demand my immediate attention.

As to Daniel 2, I think I've had this discussion with you before under another moniker and I still disagree with your take on it. Furthermore, Daniel 2, being a broad overview of all the nations that had and will have control over the land of Israel from that time until Christ reigns on the earth, is not part of this sequence of events. I do discuss this in my book and I will gladly start another thread on it and Daniel 7 so as to present my thoughts on it. I included a discussion of the thrust of your 5 Kingdom interpretation and why I still disagree with it. However, that topic is not germane to what I have presented.

Lastly, I am not the least interested in researching what other people think. Of the hundreds or thousands of commentaries out there, lining up respective camps so as to weigh the scales to our favor misses the point that we all have to examine prophecy directly. Again, all I can do is present my side and let the reader consider it. They don't have to accept it and sometimes the best we can do is to know how other people think and find out the basis of why we so often diverge in our conclusions. To that end, I have again considered what you have to say, and I think my interpretation works better. The fact that so many agree with me doesn't matter - this is not a contest.

I wanted to present my work, not only to benefit someone else with a new line of thinking, but also to sharpen my own eschatology.

 

[RANDOR]

Dang.........it just hit..........why I hate reading.....do ya really expect us to read all that stuff....hey..........if you guys like it....more power to ya......
Ya must excuse my 1 st grade education..................at least its 1st grade compared to you scholars

I didn't understand much of it.............

But..........If it glorified Jesus............then it was good..
If it didn't..................................well now................we have a problem

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Randor: You can just go down the final outline. What verbiage I put in was just to "show my work," so to speak.

Eschatology is complicated, and this is a lot shorter than the book.

I'm sorry the posts are so long; I couldn't split them up because the message board kept combining consecutive posts.

 

[DaDad]

Hi Marcus,

all I can do is present my side and let the reader consider it

Certainly each of us must arrive to our own doctrines, but it would seem a simple process to invalidate various tenants based upon simple tests typical of:

Is the Daniel 2:45 -- 4,3,5,2,1 -- Intelligent Design, or was GOD distracted when HE confused the order?

Did GOD intend the Daniel 9 seven and sixty-two as one number, and if so, where is the precedent?

Does Daniel 11 align with a Grecian "three more" and "fourth", or has a false history been contrived?

Was the angel mistaken when he dictated the prophecies as end-time?



It seems easier to build a doctrine, but harder to comply with Scripture. So please feel free to keep the one over the other.


With Best Regards,
DD



,

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

DD: This is not about some number sequence. This thread is about the sequence of events as ordered in the Bible. I can think of nothing so inane as numbering the elements in Nebuchadnezzar's statue as you have done, compare them to the firing order of a V-8 and then ask if this manifests some grand design from God.

I think this whole subject of yours is trying to make mountains out of molehills. This does not make a doctrine. If you want to explore this on a thread of yours: knock yourself out. Trust me, I'll let you run wide open on "intelligent design" and I'll stay as far away as possible.

I'd hope for some serious discussion about what I've presented here; I may find it yet, but I haven't in what you've offered up so far.

 

[DaDad]

Hi Marcus,

This is not about some number sequence.

This thread pertains to your sequence of events in Revelation, which cross into the prophecies of Daniel, for which I've provided concrete scholarly input, which you've discounted in deference to "other" commentators. And where Scripture says to let two or three prophets speak and let the others judge, you haven't judged. For if you had, then you'd have no choice to agree with Walvoord's citations, -- because each observation is readily determinable as provided.

As such, I would merely point out that where your Revelation sequence of the horns & trumpets appear to be correct, -- however, the doctrines which cross into Daniel concepts are incorrect. And where you think the Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 is a mistaken text by GOD, -- please find a mirror for the TRUE source of any error.





To All,

Some reach the limits of their understanding and then stumble down a path of ignorance, blaming Scripture and History for ~getting it wrong~.


Is the Daniel 2:45 -- 4,3,5,2,1 -- Intelligent Design, or was GOD distracted when HE confused the order?

Did GOD intend the Daniel 9 seven and sixty-two as one number, and if so, where is the precedent?

Does Daniel 11 align with a Grecian "three more" and "fourth", or has a false history been contrived?

Was the angel mistaken when he dictated the prophecies as end-time?


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[Floyd]

DD: This is not about some number sequence. This thread is about the sequence of events as ordered in the Bible. I can think of nothing so inane as numbering the elements in Nebuchadnezzar's statue as you have done, compare them to the firing order of a V-8 and then ask if this manifests some grand design from God.

I think this whole subject of yours is trying to make mountains out of molehills. This does not make a doctrine. If you want to explore this on a thread of yours: knock yourself out. Trust me, I'll let you run wide open on "intelligent design" and I'll stay as far away as possible.

I'd hope for some serious discussion about what I've presented here; I may find it yet, but I haven't in what you've offered up so far.

Marcus; I have enjoyed your work; and wish to read/study it all again at leisure.
Please let me know where I can purchase a copy of your book.
Floyd.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Floyd:

Thank-you. There is no "copy" of my book - yet; I still have a lot of work to do on it, besides writing the final chapter. The onus is on me to get God's Word right, and that takes a lot of effort - my example of the responsibility I face when I undertake to comment, analyze, and then teach on end-time prophecy comes from Job 42:7.

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.

I think when we have to give an account of our lives, a lot of us will experience a lot of regret for rash words and decisions we make on our own selfish motives, and in that I am still guilty as charged... and at times I willingly forget that to pursue my "pet" sins. Sin is still sin and I have to remind myself of that often.

In the vein of Job though, I know people are passionate about their eschatology; but when faced with honest, sincere correction - how many will re-evaluate what they think, recant, and reshape their thinking to what is shown? Very few do. If I have made a mistake in my eschatology, I'd like to know what it is. Until then, I am jazzed that so much of this outline conforms to Scripture; does not attempt to change it, and indeed preserves each major account's order.

 

[DaDad]

If I have made a mistake in my eschatology, I'd like to know what it is.

Perhaps you'd like to start with the Dan. 2:45 4,3,5,2,1 sequence. and provide an explanation which does not discount GOD's Intelligent Design.


DD

 

[shturt678]

Thank you folks for caring!

I strongly feel we should relook at God's Pre-Wrath Sequence beginning with Dan.7:27 regarding the Antichrist which forms the ground work for the Pre-Wrath Sequence in IIThess.2:11, 12 which has been coming to pass since 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24. No wrath can compare to God's being poured out today when and where He casts "error's working." Where too many think they are worshipping our Lord where in actuality worshipping the authority and power of the man Antichrist in light of IIThess.2:4 today.

btw Rev.8:7-9:21 just expounds IIThess.2:11, 12.

Don't be that concerned as only the opinion of the bottom of the heap, lowest paygrade,

Old Jack

 

[Floyd]

Floyd:

Thank-you. There is no "copy" of my book - yet; I still have a lot of work to do on it, besides writing the final chapter. The onus is on me to get God's Word right, and that takes a lot of effort - my example of the responsibility I face when I undertake to comment, analyze, and then teach on end-time prophecy comes from Job 42:7.

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.

I think when we have to give an account of our lives, a lot of us will experience a lot of regret for rash words and decisions we make on our own selfish motives, and in that I am still guilty as charged... and at times I willingly forget that to pursue my "pet" sins. Sin is still sin and I have to remind myself of that often.

In the vein of Job though, I know people are passionate about their eschatology; but when faced with honest, sincere correction - how many will re-evaluate what they think, recant, and reshape their thinking to what is shown? Very few do. If I have made a mistake in my eschatology, I'd like to know what it is. Until then, I am jazzed that so much of this outline conforms to Scripture; does not attempt to change it, and indeed preserves each major account's order.

OK Marcus; but please keep me informed.
Regarding your comments, and quote; the prayerful effort is what counts; the Holy Spirit will lead when the heart is stayed on Him.
Floyd.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Perhaps you'd like to start with the Dan. 2:45 4,3,5,2,1 sequence. and provide an explanation which does not discount GOD's Intelligent Design.

Perhaps I wouldn't like to start with a single verse when I'm putting together whole narratives.

Looking at a single verse, which is not the gist of the prophecy, is like being on the Lewis and Clark Expedition and declaring you've figured out the whole lay of the western United States from looking a single square foot of dirt!

But let's look at your track record before we look at your verse.
____________________________________

1. You say that in Daniel 7 it's really not "leopard," but "tiger."

• I corrected you and showed my source with two academic reference books which say it is a leopard.
• Furthermore, the word in Revelation 13:2, in the Greek, is again panther/leopard.
• The word "tiger" is NOT in the Bible.
• Leopards roamed ancient Israel.
• Tigers never were in the Middle East - they would be unknown to the ancient Hebrews.
• STILL you insist that you, and you alone are right and everyone else is wrong. -- This is a pattern I discern with you.

2. 1st Corinthians 14 does not tell us to "judge" what the prophets wrote - that is: the Major and Minor Prophets of the Bible. Instead, Paul is excoriating the young church to get away from nonsensical babbling as they all try to imitate talking in tongues (which would be other languages without nonsensical words in that language) and instead to prophesize and have those others in attendance weigh what they say to see if it is logical!

3. Whatever hay you're trying to make out of the order of the metals and clay cannot supplant the greater order established in the linear narrative describing a TIMELINE of kingdoms all of which did or will have hold sway over Israel!

4. You are distinctly in the minority as to the number of Kingdoms represented in Daniel 2. The text does NOT list five parts for the rule of man; the fourth part in its latter time - still iron - just has "clay" "mixed" in with it!

• It is important to note that the Hebrew word for "mixed" is 'arab. As a noun, it means steppe dweller (Saudi Arabia is a steppe). As a verb it means "mixed."
• The double entendre has only recently been recognized with the Arab invasion of European countries post WWII. They make up a sizable percentage (20-25%) and they have not only resisted being integrated - they insist on establishing little Muslim Kingdoms within those countries. A euphemism for the chaos and violence they sow from the Mediterranean to the Scandinavian countries is how the press talks about "angry young men." Those are Muslims.

Now, after seeing the abysmal track record of yours which has led us to this point: let's look at what you say:

You insist that 4, 3, 5, 2, 1 is some sort of intelligent design of God.

• That assumes this is some secret code - which likely only you have the key for because no one else really makes a big deal about it.
• It also assumes that God is the author, or that Daniel is conveying some super-secret message even though he has explained all the other parts of the statue.
• Furthermore, I don't know that God wrote anything per se, the Bible is an inspired text: not handwritten like MENE MENE TEKEL PARSIN.
• So it is an assumption on your part that this even is some "design" of God.

You also say "some reach the limits of their understanding."

• This is meant as an attack statement.
• It also belies a superiority that you don't reach your limit of understanding. A professional is going to have to help you see the error of that kind of ego-driven position.

You say people then "stumble down the path of ignorance..."

• And you still insist H5245 is "tiger."
• I have not only shown my work, but I back up my assertions with valid reference work.
• This insult, meant to put your adversary on the defensive instead belies a weakness on your part that you have to immediately go on the offense in a very personal manner. I have long noted that the personal, ad hominem attack is the hallmark of a person who cannot present a cogent argument in the classical, debate meaning.

And then you say 'those people' "blame Scripture and history for getting it wrong!"

• Well Scripture and history happen to be on my side here...
• You have some strange ideas on the Kingdoms and other passages.
• None of which is germane to the sequence of events I presented for my Pre-Wrath viewpoint.

Good day. I suppose I should wait for the sea levels to rise before I get a retraction on your part on even the smallest of these critiques: leopard or tiger?

 

[DaDad]

Hi Marcus,

1. You say that in Daniel 7 it's really not "leopard," but "tiger."

Revelation 9:7
7 In appearance the locusts were like horses arrayed for battle; on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8 their hair like women’s hair, and their teeth like lions’ teeth; 9 they had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. 10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings, and their power of hurting men for five months lies in their tails.

Revelation 9:17
17 And this was how I saw the horses in my vision: the riders wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulphur, and the heads of the horses were like lions’ heads, and fire and smoke and sulphur issued from their mouths.


If you don't know that Scripture is limited by a simple point of reference, please feel free to ask.



And yes, the "leopard" is actually a "tiger".

With Best Regards,
DD

PS At some time, instead of evading a response to the Daniel 2:45 Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 sequence, (by changing the subject, etc), you might want to take a stand like a man and either explain this INTELLIGENT DESIGN, or admit you have no excuse as to why GOD DEMANDS this sequence and you refuse to conform to HIS Word.

 

[Floyd]

Floyd:

Thank-you. There is no "copy" of my book - yet; I still have a lot of work to do on it, besides writing the final chapter. The onus is on me to get God's Word right, and that takes a lot of effort - my example of the responsibility I face when I undertake to comment, analyze, and then teach on end-time prophecy comes from Job 42:7.

7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.

I think when we have to give an account of our lives, a lot of us will experience a lot of regret for rash words and decisions we make on our own selfish motives, and in that I am still guilty as charged... and at times I willingly forget that to pursue my "pet" sins. Sin is still sin and I have to remind myself of that often.

In the vein of Job though, I know people are passionate about their eschatology; but when faced with honest, sincere correction - how many will re-evaluate what they think, recant, and reshape their thinking to what is shown? Very few do. If I have made a mistake in my eschatology, I'd like to know what it is. Until then, I am jazzed that so much of this outline conforms to Scripture; does not attempt to change it, and indeed preserves each major account's order.

Yours is a valued contribution, with honest approach.
I/we have been involved and passionately interested in Eschatology for much of our Christian life; and to that end wrote a Web-site approx. 12 years ago (with constant editing).
What we have been surprised at is the uptake worldwide (129 countries; and a high hit rate each month).
We make the strong point in the opening Statement, that the work is a study guide, not intended as a definitive statement from Almighty God re word for word accuracy of events etc; but to be taken/studied together with an open Bible; to enhance interest and awareness of coming events.
What is of interest, is the degree of criticism we encounter from many quarters; which we take as encouragement by the Holy Spirit, as being on the right track.
We are always ready to re-evaluate our thinking; but, as yet all the arrows have been hollow; and mainly from either confused statements, erroneous, statements, or from people with views that differ with ours re. Millennial.
That is why we find your work so interesting, as we are so in line.
Our site is www.revelationsmessage.co.uk
Please remember to let us know when your work is published.
Regards.
Floyd.