Predestination: A Calvinist Fairy Tale.

[Robert Pate]

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."
No one was predestinated to heaven or to hell in this scripture. They were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified them he also glorified". No one was predestinated to heaven or to hell in this scripture. They were called, justified and glorified.

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us into the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" No one was predestinated to heaven or to hell in this scripture. They were predestinated unto the adoption of children.

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will". No one was predestinated to heaven or the hell in this scripture. They were predestinated according to his will.

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. Why do Calvinist use these scriptures to prove predestination? They use these scriptures because they are hoping that no one will really examine them. The above also pretrains to all Christians, not just Calvinist.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Why do Calvinist use these scriptures to prove predestination?

You should ask Matt Slick on CARM

 

[Robert Pate]

You should ask Matt Slick on CARM

Who is Matt Slick on CARM?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Who is Matt Slick on CARM?

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[Robert Pate]

Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

If he supports Christ and his Gospel, I am all for him.

 

[Stumpmaster]

If he supports Christ and his Gospel, I am all for him.

You can search subjects of interest from the home page.

 

[Robert Pate]

You can search subjects of interest from the home page.

Thank you, But I have a really neat KJV Bible.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Thank you, But I have a really neat KJV Bible.

John Calvin primarily used the Geneva Bible for his biblical studies and teachings. This English translation, published in the 16th century, was the result of the collaboration of Protestant scholars who sought refuge in Geneva.

 

[Robert Pate]

John Calvin primarily used the Geneva Bible for his biblical studies and teachings. This English translation, published in the 16th century, was the result of the collaboration of Protestant scholars who sought refuge in Geneva.

I don't think that the found much refuge. Google, "The Recorded Atrocities of John Calvin". John Calvin was known as the tyrant from Geneva.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Thank you, But I have a really neat KJV Bible.

I have many Bibles at my disposal including the politically biased but extremely useful KJV. Should I stop reading your posts and just stick to the KJV?

 

[Robert Pate]

I have many Bibles at my disposal including the politically biased but extremely useful KJV. Should I stop reading your posts and just stick to the KJV?

Stick with your KJV. I am not a prophet.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Stick with your KJV. I am not a prophet.

Why have forums like this?

 

[Red Baker]

Election is God's choice of those that He would save (Ephesians 1:4; 2nd Thessalonians 2:13; 2nd Timothy 1:9), and He assigned them to Jesus Christ to be saved (John 6:39; 10:29; John 17:2,5,11, and 24). Jesus declared that He would not lose a single one of God's elect~ He would save every one of them (John 6:39; 17:2). This is called election in the Bible~ God's choice of rebel sinners that He would save (Romans 8:33; 11:7).

Predestination is God's certain plan and purpose for all the elect to end up in heaven ~their final destination. God's predestination of the elect to heaven is so certain that he fellowship with OT saints before Christ died for them~ and, Paul could write about their glorification in the past tense in Romans 8:28-30 which we shall consider. God has adopted each of the elect to be His child and has promised each one an eternal inheritance~both events predestinated Ephesians one.

Quote from: Paul Ephesians 1:4-6~"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Almost in each phrase there's a message within each one, that should be explained before one can get the full impact of Paul's words, but time will not allow us to do so, nor would it serve very much purpose to do so in this thread, since we only desire to consider the doctrine of predestination and its true meaning.

Predestination~

Quote God from all eternity sovereignly ordained and immutably determined the history and destiny of each and all of His creatures." This act of predestination is also referred to as the decree of God.

We will use the singular word "decree" instead of the plural decrees because we see God's work of predestination as "only one act of His infinite mind about future things." We, as human beings, use the plural "decrees" because we can only conceive of the many successive events involving the many objects of His decree. God, who possesses an infinite understanding, does not look at matters in this way as we do. He sees all things as one whole, though this is not to say that He is incapable of distinguishing the individual parts for all things are possible with Him as we all know.

The result of God's predestination is the secret will of God. God's secret will concerns all things and is being accomplished by agencies and means which HE DETERMINES, or, which He ordained. The fulfillment of God's secret will is certain, and cannot fail.

Quote from: THE LORD GOD Isaiah 46:9,10~"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

As one well said many years ago: God can no more be hindered by men or devils than they can prevent the sun from shining." Which we totally agree.

The secret will of God is referred to in Deuteronomy 29:29~ and is to be distinguished from God's revealed will. The revealed will of God is made known in His Word, and it is the standard of man's responsibility. The secret will of God is also referred to as His counsel just quoted above from the prophet Isaiah, the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11); His purpose (Romans 8:28); and His good pleasure (Ephesians 1:9).

By His secret will God is governing this world and the universe sovereignly and most unknown to us. The Most High God is ruling His world influenced by and subject to no one. He is absolutely independent, doing always and only and when He pleases. No one can change, stop, or thwart His will and purpose in any way. To believe otherwise is to be deceived by your own deceitful heart. Knowing this truth one confesses that God is God. Anything less would rob Him of that right to be called God since it would remove Him from the throne of the universe and make Him subject to His creation and creatures. With these words of introduction, it is now possible to show the total inclusiveness of the word "all" in the matter of God's predestination or secret will.

 

[Robert Pate]

Election is God's choice of those that He would save (Ephesians 1:4; 2nd Thessalonians 2:13; 2nd Timothy 1:9), and He assigned them to Jesus Christ to be saved (John 6:39; 10:29; John 17:2,5,11, and 24). Jesus declared that He would not lose a single one of God's elect~ He would save every one of them (John 6:39; 17:2). This is called election in the Bible~ God's choice of rebel sinners that He would save (Romans 8:33; 11:7).

Predestination is God's certain plan and purpose for all the elect to end up in heaven ~their final destination. God's predestination of the elect to heaven is so certain that he fellowship with OT saints before Christ died for them~ and, Paul could write about their glorification in the past tense in Romans 8:28-30 which we shall consider. God has adopted each of the elect to be His child and has promised each one an eternal inheritance~both events predestinated Ephesians one.

Almost in each phrase there's a message within each one, that should be explained before one can get the full impact of Paul's words, but time will not allow us to do so, nor would it serve very much purpose to do so in this thread, since we only desire to consider the doctrine of predestination and its true meaning.

Predestination~

We will use the singular word "decree" instead of the plural decrees because we see God's work of predestination as "only one act of His infinite mind about future things." We, as human beings, use the plural "decrees" because we can only conceive of the many successive events involving the many objects of His decree. God, who possesses an infinite understanding, does not look at matters in this way as we do. He sees all things as one whole, though this is not to say that He is incapable of distinguishing the individual parts for all things are possible with Him as we all know.

The result of God's predestination is the secret will of God. God's secret will concerns all things and is being accomplished by agencies and means which HE DETERMINES, or, which He ordained. The fulfillment of God's secret will is certain, and cannot fail.

As one well said many years ago: God can no more be hindered by men or devils than they can prevent the sun from shining." Which we totally agree.

The secret will of God is referred to in Deuteronomy 29:29~ and is to be distinguished from God's revealed will. The revealed will of God is made known in His Word, and it is the standard of man's responsibility. The secret will of God is also referred to as His counsel just quoted above from the prophet Isaiah, the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11); His purpose (Romans 8:28); and His good pleasure (Ephesians 1:9).

By His secret will God is governing this world and the universe sovereignly and most unknown to us. The Most High God is ruling His world influenced by and subject to no one. He is absolutely independent, doing always and only and when He pleases. No one can change, stop, or thwart His will and purpose in any way. To believe otherwise is to be deceived by your own deceitful heart. Knowing this truth one confesses that God is God. Anything less would rob Him of that right to be called God since it would remove Him from the throne of the universe and make Him subject to His creation and creatures. With these words of introduction, it is now possible to show the total inclusiveness of the word "all" in the matter of God's predestination or secret will.

There is no scripture that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell. The "Us" in Ephesians 1:4 is everyone.

 

[Red Baker]

There is no scripture that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell. The "Us" in Ephesians 1:4 is everyone.

Let us see what the word of God said...............

Ephesians 1:4​

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”

The "Us" in Ephesians 1:4 is everyone.

I'm not going to spend much time refuting men who are willingly ignorant of the teachings of God's word.

Us, in verses 4, 5, 8, 9, 19 and several more time in the book of Ephesians~ is limited to these words of Paul:

Ephesians 1:1​

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:”

 

[BlessedPeace]

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

God's Election(predestination) of His Elect certainly does teach that.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."
No one was predestinated to heaven or to hell in this scripture. They were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified them he also glorified". No one was predestinated to heaven or to hell in this scripture. They were called, justified and glorified.

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us into the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" No one was predestinated to heaven or to hell in this scripture. They were predestinated unto the adoption of children.

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will". No one was predestinated to heaven or the hell in this scripture. They were predestinated according to his will.

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. Why do Calvinist use these scriptures to prove predestination? They use these scriptures because they are hoping that no one will really examine them. The above also pretrains to all Christians, not just Calvinist.

The Bible pre-existed Calvin. And the doctrine of Election did too.

 

[Robert Pate]

God's Election(predestination) of His Elect certainly does teach that.

The Bible pre-existed Calvin. And the doctrine of Election did too.

You failed to come up with a scripture that says God predestinates people to heaven and to hell.

The "Elect" are those that have elected to believe in Jesus.

 

[Robert Pate]

Let us see what the word of God said...............


I'm not going to spend much time refuting men who are willingly ignorant of the teachings of God's word.

Us, in verses 4, 5, 8, 9, 19 and several more time in the book of Ephesians~ is limited to these words of Paul:

Where is the scripture that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell? You would rather believe the words of a demon than to believe God.

 

[BlessedPeace]

You failed to come up with a scripture that says God predestinates people to heaven and to hell.

How do you miss it?
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight in love.


Where do those not chosen by him before the creation of the world go when they die in sin?

Everyone born is predestined to Hell due to their natural born sin nature,as soon as they're accountable for their sins.

Jesus said, no one comes to him, is not going to Hell, unless the Father calls them.

Jesus said,to his disciples as a sign this applies to all whom God calls to himself, they did not choose him. He chose them.

Revelation tells us, those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life that was written before the foundation of the world were thrown into the lake of fire.

The "Elect" are those that have elected to believe in Jesus.

That's not in scripture.Nor is it what Jesus taught. John 15:16.

• Bible Dictionary: Elect

 

[BlessedPeace]

sovereignty/sŏv′ər-ĭn-tē, sŏv′rĭn-/

noun​

1. Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign or sovereign state.
2. Royal rank, authority, or power.
3. Complete independence and self-government.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition •

What is the doctrine of preterition?​

The Reformed doctrine of preterition says that God elects some people to salvation and leaves the rest of humanity in their fallen condition. The word preterition means “passing over” and, in the context of theology, “omission from God’s elect.” The word implies that God chose to “pass over” some people and save others. The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches preterition: “The rest of mankind [not the elect] God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice” (Chapter III — Article VII).

Quite simply, preterition says that some people are not chosen for salvation. Preterition is the flip side of predestination. The doctrine of predestination emphasizes the positive aspect of election—some are chosen for heaven. The doctrine of preterition emphasizes the negative aspect of the same doctrine—some are not chosen. It is a logical doctrine. Since not everyone goes to heaven, there must be some who are not elected. Those who are not elected for salvation must perforce be “passed over” in the choosing. If preterition were false, then everyone would be in heaven and no one would be in hell.

It is important to differentiate preterition from double predestination. Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven. The problem is that double predestination is not taught in Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that God “elects” people to go to hell; the only election mentioned in the Bible is that which sends people to heaven. Preterition, in contrast, teaches that God actively elects some to heaven and passively allows others to remain in their sin—it is an unbalanced predestination in that God is active toward some and inactive toward others. The doctrine of preterition is careful not to go beyond what the Bible teaches about predestination.

The doctrine of preterition seeks to preserve God’s justice while upholding His sovereignty in election. Since mankind chose to rebel in Eden (and continues to choose to sin), their condemnation is perfectly just. Everyone “stands condemned already” (John 3:18). God cannot be accused of injustice simply because He “passes by” a condemned person and leaves him to the punishment he deserves any more than a governor who “passes by” the last-minute appeal of a death-row inmate and declines to commute the just sentence.

The Bible is clear that God elects or chooses the saved (John 6:37; Romans 9:10–13; Titus 1:1). The dispute over election centers on the basis for it: is election based on God’s foreknowledge of who will respond to the gospel, or is it based solely on God’s sovereign extension of mercy? The relationship between God’s sovereignty and man’s free will has been debated ad infinitum for centuries. The fact is that the Bible teaches God’s sovereignty, wisdom, and mercy in salvation (John 15:16); and it also teaches man’s responsibility to repent and believe (Mark 1:15). We should ultimately be okay with not fully understanding every nuance of God’s work, in the knowledge that His thoughts and ways are infinitely higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8–9).

The doctrine of preterition teaches that election is one-sided. God extended mercy to some whom He chose (Romans 9:18), leaving others to their fate. Meanwhile, the gospel is to be extended to all people (Matthew 28:1 –20). Those who believe in Christ are saved, and those who refuse God’s merciful offer are not (Romans 3:10–11, 20–24). Reconciling God’s proactivity in salvation with the need for human faith is something that finite human minds will continue to struggle with.What is the doctrine of preterition?