Predestination: A Calvinist Fairy Tale.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Red Baker

Active Member
Jan 10, 2024
285
64
28
75
Easley
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

What is the doctrine of preterition?

The Reformed doctrine of preterition says that God elects some people to salvation and leaves the rest of humanity in their fallen condition. The word preterition means “passing over” and, in the context of theology, “omission from God’s elect.” The word implies that God chose to “pass over” some people and save others. The Westminster Confession of Faith teaches preterition: “The rest of mankind [not the elect] God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice” (Chapter III — Article VII).

Quite simply, preterition says that some people are not chosen for salvation. Preterition is the flip side of predestination. The doctrine of predestination emphasizes the positive aspect of election—some are chosen for heaven. The doctrine of preterition emphasizes the negative aspect of the same doctrine—some are not chosen. It is a logical doctrine. Since not everyone goes to heaven, there must be some who are not elected. Those who are not elected for salvation must perforce be “passed over” in the choosing. If preterition were false, then everyone would be in heaven and no one would be in hell. (I do not hold to the same doctrine that the Reformed community of believers do~I believe the scriptures teaches that the unregenerate, non-elect are in silence in the grave waiting for the judgment of the last day when they shall come forth to be judged and then cast into the lake of fire to perish, or be destroyed~RB)

It is important to differentiate preterition from double predestination.
Double predestination teaches that God proactively elects some to heaven and proactively elects some to hell—it is a balanced predestination in that God is as equally active in choosing people for hell as He is in choosing people for heaven. The problem is that double predestination is not taught in Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that God “elects” people to go to hell; the only election mentioned in the Bible is that which sends people to heaven. Preterition, in contrast, teaches that God actively elects some to heaven and passively allows others to remain in their sin—it is an unbalanced predestination in that God is active toward some and inactive toward others. The doctrine of preterition is careful not to go beyond what the Bible teaches about predestination.

The doctrine of preterition seeks to preserve God’s justice while upholding His sovereignty in election. Since mankind chose to rebel in Eden (and continues to choose to sin), their condemnation is perfectly just. Everyone “stands condemned already” (John 3:18). God cannot be accused of injustice simply because He “passes by” a condemned person and leaves him to the punishment he deserves any more than a governor who “passes by” the last-minute appeal of a death-row inmate and declines to commute the just sentence.

The Bible is clear that God elects or chooses the saved (John 6:37; Romans 9:10–13; Titus 1:1). The dispute over election centers on the basis for it: is election based on God’s foreknowledge of who will respond to the gospel, or is it based solely on God’s sovereign extension of mercy? The relationship between God’s sovereignty and man’s free will has been debated ad infinitum for centuries. The fact is that the Bible teaches God’s sovereignty, wisdom, and mercy in salvation (John 15:16); and it also teaches man’s responsibility to repent and believe (Mark 1:15). We should ultimately be okay with not fully understanding every nuance of God’s work, in the knowledge that His thoughts and ways are infinitely higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8–9)......... (I must respectfully disagree with this section~We know what is in God foreknowledge as I explained above~he knew by his infinite knowledge of knowing the end from the beginning, that if he did not have an election by grace, than no one would have ever been saved, impossible! RB)

The doctrine of preterition teaches that election is one-sided. God extended mercy to some whom He chose (Romans 9:18), leaving others to their fate.
Meanwhile, the gospel is to be extended to all people (Matthew 28:1 –20). Those who believe in Christ are saved, and those who refuse God’s merciful offer are not (Romans 3:10–11, 20–24). Reconciling God’s proactivity in salvation with the need for human faith is something that finite human minds will continue to struggle with. (Again, I respectfully disagree~many minds do struggle, some not so much, if they trust God's word to deliver its truth to them by seeking it with all of their heart, mind and soul.....God does not "offer" his gospel to anyone as though they have the power/spiritual strength to hear, see and believe. RB)
Please consider my highlighted areas.

The teaching of preterition is not taught by the Reformed community of believer as it once was taught by them, yet is still by all of the Particular Baptist, among whom I would be considered, (yet we worship at home) and other Christian groups.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BlessedPeace

Robert Pate

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,607
883
113
79
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How do you miss it?
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight in love.


Where do those not chosen by him before the creation of the world go when they die in sin?


Everyone born is predestined to Hell due to their natural born sin nature,as soon as they're accountable for their sins.

Jesus said, no one comes to him, is not going to Hell, unless the Father calls them.

Jesus said,to his disciples as a sign this applies to all whom God calls to himself, they did not choose him. He chose them.

Revelation tells us, those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life that was written before the foundation of the world were thrown into the lake of fire.

That's not in scripture.Nor is it what Jesus taught. John 15:16.

you believe in a God that predestinates people to hell that have not even been born yet. You would have to be spiritually nuts to believe that God does that. I call it blasphemy. Have you not read John 3:16? You would rather believe a demon than believe God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChristisGod

BlessedPeace

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2023
3,929
3,035
113
Bend
akiane.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you believe in a God that predestinates people to hell that have not even been born yet. You would have to be spiritually nuts to believe that God does that. I call it blasphemy. Have you not read John 3:16? You would rather believe a demon than believe God.
No. I take God at his word. I don't excuse what I refuse to accept if that so to insist God's sovereign authority as creator of all is what I prefer to itemize as his creation. Because I will not accept he tells me he is also creator of all things I don't like.

That ideology is known as ,among other labels, Sophistry.
I am not a Sophist. I am a Bible reading God conscious Christian.

And I do not apologize. Nor accept sophist blasphemy as able to abrogate God's a real power and character.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Baker

Red Baker

Active Member
Jan 10, 2024
285
64
28
75
Easley
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you believe in a God that predestinates people to hell that have not even been born yet. You would have to be spiritually nuts to believe that God does that. I call it blasphemy. Have you not read John 3:16? You would rather believe a demon than believe God.
Robert, the spirit which you post with is the spirit of antichrist ~you never, or very seldom use scriptures to defend your position, but use ad hominem. Folks who do so, do this, because they truly have no support from heaven, and it is their only recourse~we see this in the scriptures from the Pharisees, rulers of the Jews, scribes and lawyers against the Lord Jesus, who always brought them back to the word of God to condemned their lack of love for the scriptures ~ their last resort............ they killed him, just as men like you do the character of the just, since you cannot gainsay, or refute their teachings of the scriptures.

John 3:16 does not one thing to support your antichrist doctrine, not one thing.

In John 3:16, Jesus is making declaration of a biblical truth~first, God's love is not limited to the Jewish nation, nor does he love them more than other nations, is love is to all nations, the elect within those nations.

All without distinction, not all without exception as you vainly try to make others believe.

We will add~the declaration is declaring that all who believe will not perish but have everlasting life. There's not even an invitation in this verse, the Lord is doing nothing more than declaring a truth taught all through the scriptures........ Faith is the evidence of eternal life, not the means to cause God to regenerate the sinner as your religion teaches. But what would a man like you know about such precious truths, because you fight truth, and as long as you do, God's truths will be kept hidden from you. All of God's children said Amen, Amen.
 

Robert Pate

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,607
883
113
79
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Robert, the spirit which you post with is the spirit of antichrist ~you never, or very seldom use scriptures to defend your position, but use ad hominem. Folks who do so, do this, because they truly have no support from heaven, and it is their only recourse~we see this in the scriptures from the Pharisees, rulers of the Jews, scribes and lawyers against the Lord Jesus, who always brought them back to the word of God to condemned their lack of love for the scriptures ~ their last resort............ they killed him, just as men like you do the character of the just, since you cannot gainsay, or refute their teachings of the scriptures.

John 3:16 does not one thing to support your antichrist doctrine, not one thing.

In John 3:16, Jesus is making declaration of a biblical truth~first, God's love is not limited to the Jewish nation, nor does he love them more than other nations, is love is to all nations, the elect within those nations.

All without distinction, not all without exception as you vainly try to make others believe.

We will add~the declaration is declaring that all who believe will not perish but have everlasting life. There's not even an invitation in this verse, the Lord is doing nothing more than declaring a truth taught all through the scriptures........ Faith is the evidence of eternal life, not the means to cause God to regenerate the sinner as your religion teaches. But what would a man like you know about such precious truths, because you fight truth, and as long as you do, God's truths will be kept hidden from you. All of God's children said Amen, Amen.
You believe that John 3:16 is anti-Christ? And now you deny John 3:16 by saying that God only loves some, but not all. By your words you will be condemned.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

Romans 8:29, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son."
No one was predestinated to heaven or to hell in this scripture. They were predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified them he also glorified". No one was predestinated to heaven or to hell in this scripture. They were called, justified and glorified.

Ephesians 1:5, "Having predestinated us into the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" No one was predestinated to heaven or to hell in this scripture. They were predestinated unto the adoption of children.

Ephesians 1:11, "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will". No one was predestinated to heaven or the hell in this scripture. They were predestinated according to his will.

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell. Why do Calvinist use these scriptures to prove predestination? They use these scriptures because they are hoping that no one will really examine them. The above also pretrains to all Christians, not just Calvinist.
An example of can't see the forest for teh trees!

It is people who are predestined to be conformed. That means the people are predestined.

Believers are the elect (chosen) before God made the world.

All people are destined for hell because we are conceived as lost! Believers are lost until god activiates their salvation in time. But He will for He chose them in advance. The choice is Gods and not man.

Mankind had nothing to do with their first birth and mankind has nothing to with their rebirth!
 

Robert Pate

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,607
883
113
79
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
An example of can't see the forest for teh trees!

It is people who are predestined to be conformed. That means the people are predestined.

Believers are the elect (chosen) before God made the world.

All people are destined for hell because we are conceived as lost! Believers are lost until god activiates their salvation in time. But He will for He chose them in advance. The choice is Gods and not man.

Mankind had nothing to do with their first birth and mankind has nothing to with their rebirth!
God chooses no one. If God chose some to be saved and others to be lost, he would be unjust and a sinner. When you believe Calvinism you have believed that God is an unjust sinner. Calvinism is self-defeating. You will never see heaven if you believe that God is an unjust sinner.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God chooses no one. If God chose some to be saved and others to be lost, he would be unjust and a sinner. When you believe Calvinism you have believed that God is an unjust sinner. Calvinism is self-defeating. You will never see heaven if you believe that God is an unjust sinner.
See you are mistaken again.

God does not choose any to be lost. All mankind is lost by default due to simply being conceived! All are destined for hell if God did not step in.

But you give philosophical arguments that contradict what the Word of God unambiguously says. I choose what the Word says over human reasoning.

Well as it is you who wishes to foist upon me that God is an unjust sinner when I know He is not- I take and give that piece of garbage the trash bin due it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Baker

Robert Pate

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,607
883
113
79
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No. I take God at his word. I don't excuse what I refuse to accept if that so to insist God's sovereign authority as creator of all is what I prefer to itemize as his creation. Because I will not accept he tells me he is also creator of all things I don't like.

That ideology is known as ,among other labels, Sophistry.
I am not a Sophist. I am a Bible reading God conscious Christian.

And I do not apologize. Nor accept sophist blasphemy as able to abrogate God's a real power and character.
God is sovereign only within his holy, just, righteous nature. God cannot and will not do anything that is not according to his holy, just righteous nature.
 

Robert Pate

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,607
883
113
79
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
See you are mistaken again.

God does not choose any to be lost. All mankind is lost by default due to simply being conceived! All are destined for hell if God did not step in.

But you give philosophical arguments that contradict what the Word of God unambiguously says. I choose what the Word says over human reasoning.

Well as it is you who wishes to foist upon me that God is an unjust sinner when I know He is not- I take and give that piece of garbage the trash bin due it.
If you believe that God predestinates anyone to heaven or to hell, then you believe that God is an unjust sinner.

Salvation has been provided for every one, by the doing and the dying of Jesus, but nothing is ours unless it is received by faith, Hebrews 2:9.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you believe that God predestinates anyone to heaven or to hell, then you believe that God is an unjust sinner.

Salvation has been provided for every one, by the doing and the dying of Jesus, but nothing is ours unless it is received by faith, Hebrews 2:9.
Repeating this lie doesn't make it any more truer than the first time you wrote it!

Of course we receive it by faith, but the faith to believe comes from god and is not part of our sinful nature.

Let me repeat again so you will not imply your lie to me again. god does not elect people to hell. He only elects people to heaven, to be conformed to the image of Jesus! God doe snot have to elect people to hell. If God did not choose to save some, none would be saved!

Romans 9:14-24

King James Version

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Please ponder verses 16 and 24 carefully.

It is not man, who, using his will gets saved But those whom God calls.

Ephesians 1

King James Version

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 
  • Like
Reactions: Red Baker

Robert Pate

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,607
883
113
79
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Repeating this lie doesn't make it any more truer than the first time you wrote it!

Of course we receive it by faith, but the faith to believe comes from god and is not part of our sinful nature.

Let me repeat again so you will not imply your lie to me again. god does not elect people to hell. He only elects people to heaven, to be conformed to the image of Jesus! God doe snot have to elect people to hell. If God did not choose to save some, none would be saved!

Romans 9:14-24​

King James Version​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Please ponder verses 16 and 24 carefully.

It is not man, who, using his will gets saved But those whom God calls.

Ephesians 1​

King James Version​

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
It appears to me that you believe that God can do anything that he wants because he is sovereign. God is sovereign only within his holy just, righteous character. Example, God cannot do anything that is contrary to his law. This is why predestination is not of God. Predestination makes God an unjust sinner. If you believe that God is unjust, then you don't have saving faith.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It appears to me that you believe that God can do anything that he wants because he is sovereign. God is sovereign only within his holy just, righteous character. Example, God cannot do anything that is contrary to his law. This is why predestination is not of God. Predestination makes God an unjust sinner. If you believe that God is unjust, then you don't have saving faith.
Well you make that appearance. God can do anything He wills, but we know He is perfect. Predestination is of God for the bible says He predestinates people and chose them before the foundation of the world.
 

Robert Pate

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,607
883
113
79
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well you make that appearance. God can do anything He wills, but we know He is perfect. Predestination is of God for the bible says He predestinates people and chose them before the foundation of the world.
There is no scripture that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no scripture that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.
Once again, God does not predestine people to hell. Only to be HIs children which means they go to heaven. I have shown you teh verses. If you will not accept them, the problem is yours.
 

Robert Pate

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,607
883
113
79
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Once again, God does not predestine people to hell. Only to be HIs children which means they go to heaven. I have shown you teh verses. If you will not accept them, the problem is yours.
Then if God predestinates people to heaven where do the unsaved go?
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
3,561
1,447
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You should ask Matt Slick on CARM

He's a huckster... which is why his name is Matt SLICK laughing.gif


If he supports Christ and his Gospel, I am all for him.

He's a calvinist and tries to make good sounding arguments that sound like he;'s not... but he definitely teaches the tenants of calvinism.

There's a lot of folk that claim they are not calvinists... but they teach tenants of calvinism so they are even more deceptive than calvinists since they are sneaking calvin's teachings in under the guise "I'm not a calvinist"
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
3,561
1,447
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no scripture that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

There is scripture that teaches God has predestined men to be conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ.

Did you see that one yet?

In other words, when God created all men, it was His desire for them to live for Him and join in in eternity.
 

Robert Pate

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,607
883
113
79
Washington
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is scripture that teaches God has predestined men to be conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ.

Did you see that one yet?

In other words, when God created all men, it was His desire for them to live for Him and join in in eternity.
Right. But no scripture that says God has chosen some and damned others.