Predestination and Free Will.

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Sigma

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— INTRODUCTORY NOTE —
In his Epistle to the Romans, St. Paul states: "...those whom [God] foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified" [Rom 8:29-30]. And again he says: "What if God... has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory?" [Rom 9:22-23].

Much ink has been spilled by many theologians down the ages over this conundrum of predestination. The perplexity of this mystery as it relates to salvation has, not surprisingly, given rise to the heresy of "predes- tinarianism", of which Calvinism is one of its chief advocates.1 This heretical understanding of St. Paul's teaching concerning "those whom [God] has predestined..." is based on two fundamental errors:

  • the absolute will of God as the sole cause of the salvation or damnation of the individual, regardless of his merits or demerits;
  • as to the elect, it denies the freedom of the will under the influence of efficacious grace and puts the reprobate under the necessity of committing sin because of the absence of grace.
In the following brief extract translated here from Valtorta's recently published [2006] Quadernetti collection, we are given the Divine explanation of predestination. This brief Dictation given by Christ to Valtorta in response to her own interior reflections on this perplexing subject, will hopefully be a needed correction of the errors it has occasioned. — Translator

On Predestination
All men without exception are predestined to grace, since I died for all.

Those who remain faithful—at least to the natural law of the Good—are predestined to glory. Thus at the end of the ages, each one who has lived as a just man, will have his reward.

God knows from eternity those who are destined for glory before they are born into life—that is, "predestined". Pay attention, then, for here is the point for understanding with justice the justice of God.

There are those who are predestined, certainly. And God knows them before time [even] exists for them. But they are not predestined because God, with evident injustice, gives them every means to become glorious, and by every means prevents any traps for them of the demon, of the world, and of the flesh. No. God gives them what He gives to all. But they use the gifts of God with justice, and hence they win the future and eternal glory by their [own] free will.

God knows that they will reach this eternal glory. But they do not know it, nor does God tell them in any way. Extraordinary gifts are not—of themselves—a sure sign of glory: they are a more severe means than others to test the spirit of a man in his will, virtue, and fidelity to God and to His Law. God knows. He rejoices in anticipation to know that this creature will reach glory; just as He suffers in anticipation to know that this other creature will, voluntarily, reach damnation.

But in no way does He intervene to force the free choice of any creature so that it may arrive where God wants all to arrive: in Heaven.

Certainly the creature's correspondence with Divine help increases its capacity to will. Because God all the more pours Himself out, as a man loves Him in truth: that is, with a charity of actions, and not [just] of words.

And again: certainly, the more a man lives as a just man, the more God also communicates with and manifests Himself to him: an anticipation of that knowledge of God which is the bliss of the saints in Heaven; and from this knowledge comes an increase of the capacity to want [will] to be perfect. But again and always, man is free with his will, and, if after having already reached perfection, one disavows the good he has practiced up till then, and sells himself to the Evil One: God would leave him free to do it. There would be no merit if there were coercion.

To conclude: God knows—from eternity—those who are the future eternal inhabitants of Heaven. But man, with his free will, must want [will] to reach Heaven by using well the supernatural helps which the Eternal Father gives to each of His creatures. And this [must he do] even to his last breath—whatever the extraordinary gifts he has received,3 and [whatever] the degrees of perfection he has reached.

Remember: no one has ever truly arrived, until his "walk" is finished. That is, no one is sure of having merited glory, until his time has ended, and immortality has begun. — Jesus to Maria Valtorta, October 23, 1948 (Quadernetti)

On Free Will

I do not violate the free will which I have given to man. I limit Myself to pointing out with clear words and spiritual advice, what it is good to do in order to merit My blessing on Earth, and eternal glory in Heaven; or else My chastisement both here and [in the] Beyond. So did My Father do with the angels and with Adam and Eve, because thus it had to be done to confirm them or not in grace. And thus do I do with all men of every class and social condition: from kings to the poor, from Priests to the laity, from scholars to the ignorant.

I subject all to the test which should confirm them in grace or make them fall into disgrace. But woe to those who, like your First Parents, through a spirit of haughtiness and envy, make bad use of the free will which I gave them, to test their virtue, just like the goldsmith tests the purity of the metal in the crucible. To them will be given the same condemnation as Adam and Eve, who were expelled from the earthly Paradise, separated from the nearness of the Father-Creator, fallen from Grace, [and] condemned for years to Limbo. So, too, these [who make bad use of their free will]—they will be condemned not to Limbo, but to Purgatory: which is a place of much greater torment. These, too, will expiate till the end of the ages their sins of haughtiness, envy, spite, injustice and, above all, their lack of charity towards their neighbor... — Jesus to Maria Valtorta, June 14, 1953 (Quadernetti)
 
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Nancy

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Hello @Sigma and welcome to the site. I read your OP and had to look further into it. This Maria Valtorta, who wrote the "The Poem Of The God-man" is actually speaking for God! That doesn't seem right at all. Also, Rome itself rejected it's authenticity. Here is a article by a Catholic person and FROM a Catholic site:


I agree that we do have free will, purgatory is something I do not see described in scripture, hope it does have some truth yet, cannot see anything at all solid in this doctrine.
God Bless and enjoy the site...even IF someone does not agree with you, lol.
 

Sigma

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Hello @Sigma and welcome to the site.

Thank you.

I read your OP and had to look further into it. This Maria Valtorta, who wrote the "The Poem Of The God-man" is actually speaking for God! That doesn't seem right at all. Also, Rome itself rejected it's authenticity. Here is a article by a Catholic person and FROM a Catholic site:


That article has been refuted.
 

Nancy

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Well the 1st "Here" is not Catholicism refuting, it is a site and article about her by Jonathan Baker: "In Defence Of the Poem" so the article is no more than any other from "man"...such as yourself. It is extra biblical.
And, the second "here" is not a secure site and I was warned to go back so I did.
I'd like to see where the Catholic Church now accepts it because I bet you dollars to donuts that they do not.

 

Sigma

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Well the 1st "Here" is not Catholicism refuting, it is a site and article about her by Jonathan Baker: "In Defence Of the Poem" so the article is no more than any other from "man"...such as yourself.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa also isn't Catholicism, but rather just a man as well, yet you accept his article. Is it not a double standard then for you to not accept another man's article, such as Jonathan Baker's?

And, the second "here" is not a secure site and I was warned to go back so I did.

I've been to the site multiple times, it's fine.

I'd like to see where the Catholic Church now accepts it because I bet you dollars to donuts that they do not.

The Catholic Church hasn't officially ruled it as of supernatural origin or not yet. Thus far, Pope Pius XII commanded that Maria Valtorta's The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I-V be published and they were. The excerpts from her book Quadernetti in the opening post were published in 2006. So, there's people within the Catholic Church who support and oppose Maria Valtorta's literary works.
 
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Randy Kluth

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On Predestination



On Free Will
The problem with this is that it is the same old cop out. This says that God, of course, knows everything, including who will choose for Salvation and who will not. This does not resolve anything, nor is it even provable that God hasn't placed conditions upon Himself whereby people actually choose things that are beyond God's control. If they are true choices, then God cannot, by definition, control those choices. It does no good just to say God looks at a crystal ball and knows in advance how people will choose. How is this truly free choice?

But in a sense this is true, I think. God does know how each individual will choose, based on His original predestination of a certain number of elect. Those who are added, as such by Satan and by aberrant human choice, are obviously not entities God planned. (If they are planned at all it is an afterthought to the freedom He has given Satan and fallen Man to choose contrary to His original will.)

The resulting choices are all predictable. They will choose, like Satan, to rebel against God's word, disqualifying them from being God's elect.
 

Nancy

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Fr. Mitch Pacwa also isn't Catholicism, but rather just a man as well, yet you accept his article. Is it not a double standard then for you to not accept another man's article, such as Jonathan Baker's?



I've been to the site multiple times, it's fine.



The Catholic Church hasn't officially made a decision about it either way yet. Thus far, Pope Pius XII commanded that Maria Valtorta's The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I-V be published and they were. The excerpts from her book Quadernetti in the opening post were published in 2006. So, there's people within the Catholic Church who support and oppose Maria Valtorta's literary works.
"I've been to the site multiple times, it's fine." Mmm, okay good for you, this is what I get every time:

"The connection to www.mariavaltortawebring.com is not secure​

You are seeing this warning because this site does not support HTTPS. Learn more"

Well the 1st "Here" is not Catholicism refuting, it is a site and article about her by Jonathan Baker: "In Defence Of the Poem" so the article is no more than any other from "man"...such as yourself.
Sigma:
"Fr. Mitch Pacwa also isn't Catholicism, but rather just a man as well, yet you accept his article. Is it not a double standard then for you to not accept another man's article, such as Jonathan Baker's?"

What I was asking for was "Rome's authentication", not another fan but, thanks it's not a thing. We all have our beliefs.
God Bless
 

Sigma

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Mmm, okay good for you, this is what I get every time:

"The connection to www.mariavaltortawebring.com is not secure​

You are seeing this warning because this site does not support HTTPS. Learn more"

I can copy/paste what the article says if you really want to read it?

What I was asking for was "Rome's authentication...

Again, the Catholic Church hasn't officially ruled it as of supernatural origin or not yet, but there's a lot of evidence that shows it is.
 
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Sigma

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Additionally @Nancy, you should read the testimonies and actual studies done by professionals in various fields, who've analyzed and tested the credibility of Maria Valtorta personally and her literary works. Below are just a few:

(i) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

In conclusion, what do these findings mean? That Maria Valtorta is such a good writer to be able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature? Or that visions and dictations really occurred and she was only a mystical, very intelligent and talented “writing tool”? Of course, no answer grounded in science can be given to the latter question.

(ii) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

It seems that she has written down observations and facts really happened at the time of Jesus’ life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge. In conclusion, if from one hand the scientific inquire has evidenced all the surprising and unexpected results reported and discussed in this paper, on the other hand our actual scientific knowledge cannot readily explain how these results are possible.

(iii) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:

An additional line of incontrovertible evidence (which Valtorta was encouraged by Jesus to include for the benefit of “the difficult doctors” of the Church) deals with the vast amount of geographical, climatic, agricultural, historical, astronomical, and cartographical information given in her work. Authorities in these fields have verified the accuracy of what she has reported with appropriate astonishment. Valtorta accurately identifies this agricultural and climatic information that is often unique to Palestine with the appropriate calendar period which she often specifically identifies. Without any evidence of planning and with hardly any corrections, Valtorta ends up with a perfectly flowing 3½ year story line with Jesus appropriately in Jerusalem and Judea for Passover and Pentecost in all four spring seasons, and at the Tabernacles in all three fall seasons of His ministry. Valtorta shows Jesus to have traversed the land of Palestine from one end to another in at least six cycles (some 4,000 miles), ministering in some 350 named locations, including places in Palestine known only to specialized archaeologists. Not once, however, does she have Jesus (or any one of the other 500 characters) in a place inconsistent with either the story line or distance or timing necessities.

(iv) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:

The work [The Poem of the Man-God] overflows with exact data from the viewpoint of history, topography, architecture, geography, ethnology, chronology, etc. Furthermore, Maria Valtorta often provides precise details known only by some scholars, and in certain cases, she even records details totally unknown at the time she recorded them, and which archeology, history, or science have later confirmed.
 
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