Predestination or "Free Will?"

[In Christ]

Many different denominations argue for both camps, but what does Scripture say?

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:10-11

If this is God's assessment of the human race, how then can anyone say they have "free will?' It is an impossibility!

John 6:44 along with the prayer of the Lord Jesus, which can be found in John Chapter 17 declared that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

Is "free will" biblical?

What say you?

In Christ.

 

[Niki]

How do you see the fact that we are a new creation in Christ working out in your premise?

Romans is a book that was written to help explain the difference between the law and new life in Christ.

Wouldn't you agree that those who are in Christ DO, in fact, seek after God? Hasn't He given us a new heart?

Predestination does not exactly agree with the fact that God is not willing for anyone to perish.

How would you reconcile that with predestination?

Thanks

 

[HiddenManna]

Many different denominations argue for both camps, but what does Scripture say?

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:10-11

If this is God's assessment of the human race, how then can anyone say they have "free will?' It is an impossibility!

John 6:44 along with the prayer of the Lord Jesus, which can be found in John Chapter 17 declared that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

Is "free will" biblical?

What say you?

In Christ.

Predestination as some would teach it, has many errors but is seen in clear terms in scripture. Free-will cannot be proven in scripture, God demands that a man die to His own will and lives according to Gods Will.

 

[daq]

Have any of you ever encountered or heard of a lamb that would willingly offer himself up as the fulfillment of a "free will offering" from the heart unto God? A lamb that could give the full testimony of the Truth and then would likewise lay down his soul for his friends? That is the problem with sacrificing literal lambs you know; animals cannot give themselves willingly out of a heart filled with love for their neighbors.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Many different denominations argue for both camps, but what does Scripture say?

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth,
there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:10-11

If this is God's assessment of the human race, how then can anyone say they have "free will?' It is an impossibility!

John 6:44 along with the prayer of the Lord Jesus, which can be found in John Chapter 17 declared that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

Is "free will" biblical?

What say you?

In Christ.

Greetings, In Christ.

No doubt scripture clearly depicts man is in bondage to sin. in-fact he is saturated with it and not one instance of his being is exempt. The problem with the free will debate is, how does one define 'free will' biblically? Most I would say define it by their own experience and seek scripture to back it up. Doing this off course colours their mind to other great truths related to this very subject.

Scripture, I believe teaches that our very desires are darkened and as the scriptures say... there is NONE that seek after GOD. Romans 3:9-12

What I have found is that very few can accurately and simply set forth the scriptures on this topic and those that also pertain to it. So most go about nit picking the flaws of the writer so as to secure their own position. However, one writer I think has done a honorable job surrounding such a topic and that's A.W. Pink in his 'Sovereignty of God'.

I believe he sets out a thorough and thought provoking treaty & is worthwhile for all who seek to honor GOD to give this man a fair hearing. Apart from this we would merely be spouting our own opinions in some hacked form and would fail ultimately to build and be built up in the faith.

SHALOM
JB

 

[In Christ]

How do you see the fact that we are a new creation in Christ working out in your premise?

Romans is a book that was written to help explain the difference between the law and new life in Christ.

Wouldn't you agree that those who are in Christ DO, in fact, seek after God? Hasn't He given us a new heart?

Predestination does not exactly agree with the fact that God is not willing for anyone to perish.

How would you reconcile that with predestination?

Thanks

The Bible has only one Gospel but divided into two parts. The Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is filled with ceremonial laws, in that,,the people had to make blood sacrifices to atone for their sins. While in the New Testament side it is by grace through faith. Ultimately, whether we lived in the Old or New Testament side made no difference. There is only one salvation plan and one sacrifice which was the Lord Jesus. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8. If this was not true how did the old testament believers become saved, since Christ had not gone to the cross as yet? As a matter of fact, God not only named those He planned to save, but He also chose,elected, and predestined them to salvation before He created the world.

Totally. When God saves an individual He gives him a brand new soul and he becomes a new creature. Only in this state does he seek after God..

I beg to differ, predestination have everything to do with 2 Peter 3:9. We must qualify the word "any." In the context of 2 Peter 3:9 it does not mean each and every, but refers to believers. We can paraphrase it this way, ...not willing that any believer should perish. Jesus said, all that the Father giveth Him will come to Him...and of all who come to Him He will have lost none of them.

You are very welcome.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

The Bible has only one Gospel but divided into two parts. The Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is filled with ceremonial laws, in that,,the people had to make blood sacrifices to atone for their sins. While in the New Testament side it is by grace through faith. Ultimately, whether we lived in the Old or New Testament side made no difference. There is only one salvation plan and one sacrifice which was the Lord Jesus. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8. If this was not true how did the old testament believers become saved, since Christ had not gone to the cross as yet? As a matter of fact, God not only named those He planned to save, but He also chose,elected, and predestined them to salvation before He created the world.

Totally. When God saves an individual He gives him a brand new soul and he becomes a new creature. Only in this state does he seek after God..

I beg to differ, predestination have everything to do with 2 Peter 3:9. We must qualify the word "any." In the context of 2 Peter 3:9 it does not mean each and every, but refers to believers. We can paraphrase it this way, ...not willing that any believer should perish. Jesus said, all that the Father giveth Him will come to Him...and of all who come to Him He will have lost none of them.

You are very welcome.

AMEN!

 

[Purity]

I beg to differ, predestination have everything to do with 2 Peter 3:9. We must qualify the word "any." In the context of 2 Peter 3:9 it does not mean each and every, but refers to believers. We can paraphrase it this way, ...not willing that any believer should perish. Jesus said, all that the Father giveth Him will come to Him...and of all who come to Him He will have lost none of them.

You are very welcome.

One was lost.

And many more to come.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

One was lost. WRONG

And many more to come. WRONG

For you gave him authority over all people, so that he might give eternal life to all those you gave him. John 17:2





Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. _>>> John 13:18 "I am not talking about all of you; I know those I have chosen. But the scripture must come true that says, 'The man who shared my food turned against me.'

The scripture spoken of:

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

 

[Purity]

For you gave him authority over all people, so that he might give eternal life to all those you gave him. John 17:2





Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. _>>> John 13:18 "I am not talking about all of you; I know those I have chosen. But the scripture must come true that says, 'The man who shared my food turned against me.'

The scripture spoken of:

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

I did not qualify on what basis he was lost - only that he was lost.

Does the same Scripture speak of others being lost?

How sayest thou?

 

[Angelina]

In Christ

Totally. When God saves an individual He gives him a brand new soul and he becomes a new creature. Only in this state does he seek after God..

I beg to differ on this point. He does not give us a brand new soul...
Galatians 5:16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, Ephesians 4:25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32. Romans 6:12-14, Romans 12:1-2, 3

He gives us his Spirit to help us be transformed into the likeness of Gods Son from the inside out...2 Corinthians 3:18, John 14:27, John 15:26, John 16:13,

Shalom

 

[jiggyfly]

Predestination or "Free Will?"

While it is obvious both cannot be right both can still be wrong. There is some truth in each but there is also error in each.

 

[Angelina]

I think that we first need to be able to clearly define what "free will" is before deciding whether it is found in scripture or not ie: Is free will a conscious choice or decision?

Be Blessed!

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

Free will is proven by this scripture,

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Matthewe 26:39

Blessings,

Justing

 

[Niki]

The Bible has only one Gospel but divided into two parts. The Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament is filled with ceremonial laws, in that,,the people had to make blood sacrifices to atone for their sins. While in the New Testament side it is by grace through faith. Ultimately, whether we lived in the Old or New Testament side made no difference. There is only one salvation plan and one sacrifice which was the Lord Jesus. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8. If this was not true how did the old testament believers become saved, since Christ had not gone to the cross as yet? As a matter of fact, God not only named those He planned to save, but He also chose,elected, and predestined them to salvation before He created the world.

Totally. When God saves an individual He gives him a brand new soul and he becomes a new creature. Only in this state does he seek after God..

I beg to differ, predestination have everything to do with 2 Peter 3:9. We must qualify the word "any." In the context of 2 Peter 3:9 it does not mean each and every, but refers to believers. We can paraphrase it this way, ...not willing that any believer should perish. Jesus said, all that the Father giveth Him will come to Him...and of all who come to Him He will have lost none of them.

You are very welcome.

The reason I asked the questions I did, was because I am well aware of the teaching in both testaments.

I agree there was alway only one plan for salvation in God's econonmy.

The part of your post I am difficulty with is what appears to be your understanding re predestination.

Further, God does not give anyone a brand new soul. Our spirits become alive in God through His Holy Spirit with Whom we are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Do you have a verse or passage that states we receive a brand new soul? I would be interested in knowing where you get that idea from

You think that stating that God is not willing that any should perish is a paraphrase?

Sorry, but you are misrepresenting scripture if that is what you state

God's plan unfolds through the OT and we see it fulfilled in the New. Predestination is not something you can prove by changing the meaning of other scriptures
that may appear to contradict a belief you hold firmly in one hand while disregarding other scripture that, to you, does not seem to line up with what you present.

The difficulty in understanding some passages is not resolved by ignoring other passages.

Dear All,

Free will is proven by this scripture,

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Matthewe 26:39

Blessings,

Justing

and many others.

Stating that we basically have no choice and some of us are born to be saved and others are born to be fodder for the fire is incorrect teaching. I also think that it
gives some a false sense of security and also, in some cases, may cause some to believe they could be chosen and therefore 'special' and anointed in some way
that should cause the rest of us to listen whenever they say something.

I think I have seen and heard too much during my Christian walk that detracts from the truth and puts the spotlight on human flesh rather than on God where it
belongs.

Much of that type of nonsense, is subtle and appeals to the flesh. I've probably said too much. sigh

 

[HammerStone]

I'd recommend Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther for this topic. I've not finished the entire work, but Luther very pointedly illustrates that if we have an omniscient God, then by definition any notion of free will is limited by God himself. It doesn't make logical sense that God is omniscient but that he doesn't know and influence you with His greater will.

In a more modern example, take our choice for a product in the store. I can walk in and have the "free will" to choose my choice of soap, but my choices in soap are limited by the companies - what they produce, costs, etc. One could even argue that governments provide regulations so I cannot buy an unsafe product, etc. I am limited by entities larger than me in what I can choose, yet we still have this notion of free will. It's not as free as we think.

The only person who has free will in the full and absolute sense of free will is God himself.

Where I think the rub comes amongst Reformed (& Calvinists), Arminians, Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. is how this plays out. The synergistic notion sounds rather nice because it gives us a role in the production. However, there are explicit Scriptures which seemingly contradict a total free will because God still planned things out beforehand:

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. - Acts 4:27-28 NIV

Now, you can hold an almost Wesleyan-Arminian view of salvation, I think, in a reasonable manner. You can take passages like Romans 9:6-24 and view them as a corporate statement - I don't see that as journeying in heretical territory - but at the end of the day, I tend to come along the Reformed view.

My issue with many fellow Reformed believers is that how we characterize things is important, and I see too many wanting to make that pot-stirring declaration that God performs this or that. Arminianism and Reformed theology both ascribe some level of culpability to God for sin if you look at them through the typical frame - Arminianism simply says that God knowingly created a sinful creature while the Reformed line says that God created the sinful creature to sin (see Acts 4:27-28 above and Pharoah's reaction to Moses).

I don't think either position fully understands God's role, and frankly that is the limit of the finite attempting to describe the infinite.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

Free will means to choose to live with or without God. If you choose to live without God by being unfaithful to His Word then you will be as Cain who God set outside the presence of HIM into the wilderness to walk as just a wanderer in the earth and learning how to provided, protect for your ownself and will eventually die as is the result of being your own god.

If you chose to accept, believe and follow Christ.. God's Word then you will walk in a good life for God is not a child abusing Father but He cares for His OBEDIENT children who look to HIM for their successes in life doing things according to His Word even when it hurts, they still remain faithful knowing that victory comes by abiding in His Word and His Word in them because the Father sees all and is our Source for all power and things come from Him not of ourselves.

Before the foundation of the world means that God created us in the beginning to be godly children whom He can bless with good health, abundance in all things so that we do not need to steal, kill or destroy to live in peace, provision and protection as the fallen nature does who have not made the Lord their Hand to receive these things, but use their own or other men's hands to gain in this life.

We have been a fallen creation since Adam disobeyed God's Word so the LORD removed Adam far from the Tree of Life who is the Word of Life being Christ. For when God wants man to understand the goodness of His Word.. He removes it from them so that they fall into deep darkness for us to see the effects of our famine for the Word.
Eve was in deception because she received God's Word second hand.. but we now have the opportunity to be restored given the free will choice to receive Christ the Word of life whom was manifested in the flesh, and many who pure heartedly do are being chosen before the foundation of the NEW world to come but we now being born again of the Spirit and separated from our mother's womb(heavenly Jerusalem) to be raised up meaning trained up in the Word by the Wisdom of God(Spirit) to be kings and priests of the new earth. We begin as babes but as we grow in Christ aka The Word we grow in integrity and grace to prepare us for our positions in the kingdom of God to rule all nations in the knowledge of God who is not only the Head but must be the center of our life if we plan to remain alive. For when we choose with our Free Will to live without God the results are not good~ But with God all is possible and unlimited as to the good things He gives to one who LOVES THE SON and abides in The Word all the days of their lives keeping the Word alive in the earth.

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
KJV

Gen 28:3-4
3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;
4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
KJV
Gal 3:11-16
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
KJV

1 Peter 1:23
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
KJV
Luke 8:11
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
KJV

 

[Wormwood]

Greetings, In Christ.

No doubt scripture clearly depicts man is in bondage to sin. in-fact he is saturated with it and not one instance of his being is exempt. The problem with the free will debate is, how does one define 'free will' biblically? Most I would say define it by their own experience and seek scripture to back it up. Doing this off course colours their mind to other great truths related to this very subject.

Scripture, I believe teaches that our very desires are darkened and as the scriptures say... there is NONE that seek after GOD. Romans 3:9-12

What I have found is that very few can accurately and simply set forth the scriptures on this topic and those that also pertain to it. So most go about nit picking the flaws of the writer so as to secure their own position. However, one writer I think has done a honorable job surrounding such a topic and that's A.W. Pink in his 'Sovereignty of God'.

I believe he sets out a thorough and thought provoking treaty & is worthwhile for all who seek to honor GOD to give this man a fair hearing. Apart from this we would merely be spouting our own opinions in some hacked form and would fail ultimately to build and be built up in the faith.

SHALOM
JB

Actually, Arminians that defend "free will" do not discount total depravity. It is a frequent error by Calvinists to suggest that Arminians do not believe that humans are completely and totally depraved. They do. They simply argue that God's grace allows for human cooperation. God's grace does not remove free will but elicits it. As one author put it, "the human person is not a stone or cannonball that does not act but is merely acted upon. No one holds a cannonball responsible for what it effects. Similarly, one impelled by a force he cannot resist cannot be held accountable either for reward or punishment." By grace, God grants us the power to respond to his goodness and appeals to our freedom. Those who believe in free will do not reject total depravity, but the doctrine of double predestination which teaches that God has predetermined certain people for both salvation and condemnation by his own sovereign decree. Arminians vigorously defend the claim that cross is not only for some, but all (Matt. 18:11; John 1:29; 3:17; 12:47; Rom. 14:15; 1 Cor. 8:11; 2 Cor. 5:4; Heb. 2:9; 2 Peter 2:1).

I'd recommend Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther for this topic. I've not finished the entire work, but Luther very pointedly illustrates that if we have an omniscient God, then by definition any notion of free will is limited by God himself. It doesn't make logical sense that God is omniscient but that he doesn't know and influence you with His greater will.

In a more modern example, take our choice for a product in the store. I can walk in and have the "free will" to choose my choice of soap, but my choices in soap are limited by the companies - what they produce, costs, etc. One could even argue that governments provide regulations so I cannot buy an unsafe product, etc. I am limited by entities larger than me in what I can choose, yet we still have this notion of free will. It's not as free as we think.

The only person who has free will in the full and absolute sense of free will is God himself.

Where I think the rub comes amongst Reformed (& Calvinists), Arminians, Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. is how this plays out. The synergistic notion sounds rather nice because it gives us a role in the production. However, there are explicit Scriptures which seemingly contradict a total free will because God still planned things out beforehand:

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. - Acts 4:27-28 NIV

Now, you can hold an almost Wesleyan-Arminian view of salvation, I think, in a reasonable manner. You can take passages like Romans 9:6-24 and view them as a corporate statement - I don't see that as journeying in heretical territory - but at the end of the day, I tend to come along the Reformed view.

My issue with many fellow Reformed believers is that how we characterize things is important, and I see too many wanting to make that pot-stirring declaration that God performs this or that. Arminianism and Reformed theology both ascribe some level of culpability to God for sin if you look at them through the typical frame - Arminianism simply says that God knowingly created a sinful creature while the Reformed line says that God created the sinful creature to sin (see Acts 4:27-28 above and Pharoah's reaction to Moses).

I don't think either position fully understands God's role, and frankly that is the limit of the finite attempting to describe the infinite.

HammerStone,

Appreciate your thoughts, although I would disagree on some of your points. First, "free will" does not necessitate that one has endless options, but rather than one has relative independence and the ability to initiate events. Moreover, it is the ability to have the power of contrary choice. There is a difference between having ones choices fixed or determined and limited avenues of independent decision making capacity. To use your soap analogy, it is one thing to have someone slide in your jacket and control your limbs to grab a predetermined soap and another to have a free will agent choose between limited options (or even opt to not use soap at all!).

Furthermore, Arminianism does not make God culpable for sin. God did not make sinful humans. God made sinless humans with relative independence. Even if God knew beforehand that man would sin with the independence he granted them, this does not make him culpable for the actions of a free-will agent. Perhaps you saw the movie Titanic and you watch it a second time. You know that the two young adults are going to behave improperly at one point in the movie, but your foreknowledge of the event does not make you culpable for their actions. To further clarify the issue, here is a quote from Dr. Cottrell,

[SIZE=medium]How one understands the sovereignty of God directly relates to his view of predestination. If one begins with a concept of sovereignty that requires God to be the ultimate cause of all things and does not allow anything about God to be conditioned by anything outside of God, he cannot avoid the Calvinist concept of unconditional predestination. Arminianism, however, rejects such a concept of sovereignty as arbitrary and unbiblical. For Arminians the key words for divine sovereignty are control, not causation; and conditionality, not unconditionality.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]God could have created a universe in which he would be the sole cause of all events, but he chose instead to create freewill beings who themselves have the power to choose and initiate events. As a result God is not the sole cause of whatsoever comes to pass in this universe. As Picirilli notes, “Man is therefore an actor in the universe.” This in no way contradicts God’s sovereignty because he freely and sovereignly chose to make this kind of world. This is not a limitation imposed upon God from outside himself; it is a freely chosen self-limitation, an expression of his sovereignty.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]But how can God maintain his sovereignty in such a universe if he himself does not cause everything? The answer is in the word control: through his infinite power and knowledge God maintains complete control over everything that happens. The word control should not be equated here with causation as if God were operating a universal control panel that manipulates and micromanages every event. Rather, God controls all things in the sense that he is “in complete control of” every situation: he monitors, supervises, plans, permits, intervenes, and prevents as he pleases through his infinite knowledge and power.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt][1][/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt][1][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Jack W. Cottrell, Clark H. Pinnock, Robert L. Reymond et al., Perspectives on Election: Five Views, ed. Chad Owen Brand (Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2006), 102-03.[/SIZE]

 

[Niki]

In a more modern example, take our choice for a product in the store. I can walk in and have the "free will" to choose my choice of soap, but my choices in soap are limited by the companies - what they produce, costs, etc. One could even argue that governments provide regulations so I cannot buy an unsafe product, etc. I am limited by entities larger than me in what I can choose, yet we still have this notion of free will. It's not as free as we think.

I think the buying soap illustration actually creates an interesting comparison with what I believe scripture indicates. Yes, we do have a choice, but of course it is a 'defined' choice...by both
what is already created (by God) and by what He allows.

As far as unsafe products go, you might want to disallow that one, as we have recalls all the time...and let's not even compare imports from say China that can be found on shelves. OK, well
nitpicking aside, I think the soap buying a decent comparison.

Where I think the rub comes amongst Reformed (& Calvinists), Arminians, Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, etc. is how this plays out. The synergistic notion sounds rather nice because it gives us a role in the production. However, there are explicit Scriptures which seemingly contradict a total free will because God still planned things out beforehand:

Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. - Acts 4:27-28 NIV

I do not see a , as you call it, role in the production in the sense of interfering in God's completion of His perfect will. As there are what appears to be contradictory determinations with
regards to belief in 'complete free will' or 'predestination' , I think either stance is not seeing the whole picture. (not that I have it all down just right) but I think that dichotomy suggests
something known (by God) BECAUSE of His knowledge of all things, taking into account the future, and knowing what our choices would be anyway, rather than God acting as
puppet master (not meant disrespectfully) and manipulating our choices in terms we might consider pre-destined

If that makes sense? I just have a problem with Armenian vs Wesleyan vs whatever arguments...I don't participate in them but have read a few and they just don't seem to satisfy
a ...how can I say...a justified or satisfactorily defined understanding of what I think is us still seeing through a glass darkly, in the light of the Holy Spirit.

I may have confused a few along the way in that one. Sorry. I am trying to express what I think I see with my spirit rather than just understand with my mind...which I think
scripture allows

 

[Wormwood]

As I side note, the title of this forum is not very accurate. Predestination is not contrary to free will. A more accurate title would be "Unconditional Predestination or 'Free Will?'" Those in the free will camp certainly hold to predestination, but it is a conditional predestination not an unconditional one.