God Bless, Jesus Christ is the way, the light and the truth.What are you talking about? You are mocking God!
It is very hard to listen Premils constantly belittling the sovereign power of Christ and in turn continually lauding the power of Satan, intimating that he somehow has the power to thwart the purposes of Christ and the Church in our day. Premils strips Christ of His lofty position as sovereign King and argue that He is not currently reigning as King. Regardless of the Scripture presented to the contrary, Premils seem determined in depicting a BIG devil and a small god, a powerful kingdom of darkness and a weak kingdom of God, a sovereign ruling devil and a subservient Christ. This is deeply concerning as it is the opposite to what the New Testament presents of Christ and His Church.
It is as if Christ never came 2,000 years ago and defeated Satan on his own playing field. It is as if the cross never happened. It is as if the resurrection never happened. It is as if His ascension never happened. Did He not conquer ever enemy of righteousness? Did He not defeat sin, death, the grave, hell and Satan? It is as if He was wrong to proclaim “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).
It is hard to watch on as Premils undermine the omnipotence of Christ on this board. Many Premils deny Christ is reigning today as King of kings and Lord of lords. They deny Christ is reigning over all creation. They deny Christ is reigning over His enemies as conquering king. They have Christ operating in a vacuum as some impotent want-to-be ruler. They deny that He is sitting upon David’s throne as Israel’s Messiah. They depict Him as some kind of Prince-in-waiting desperately hoping to rule. This is not what Scripture depicts.
First: Jesus is God. That means what He says goes. The Scriptures say about our God in Isaiah 46:9-11, “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure ... yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.”
Ephesians 1:11 say: He “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”
What does that mean?
Basically God is in control, There is a purpose for everything that happens to us – good, bad and indifferent. That God has a plan for your life and a call on your life as a believer and that He is working circumstances and people in order to get you to where He wants you.
God permitting sin has never infringed on His absolute sovereign kingship. This is not a contradiction but a part of His infinite wisdom and power. He exercises all power! “All power” means that He reigns over all creation as God and causes and permits everything that happens. He is ruling over everything and everyone (there is nothing that is not under His sovereign control). How much more power does He need to possess to exercise full authority than this? Christ testifies in Rev 3:7 that He "openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth."
He holds all power (without qualification). After all, He is God! God either causes or permits - as He is God and He is sovereign. Simple! That is an explicit biblical truth and a Christian fundamental.
It is good to know that our God is sovereign. He calls the shots, not Satan!
I have shown you many times but you choose to fight the Scriptures. Christ won the right to rule over His enemies at the right hand of majesty through His sinless life, His atoning death and His victorious resurrection. You reject this. You oppose this. You render the cross meaningless, Christ powerless and His reign pointless. You present a BIG devil and a small god.
Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.
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It calls the lake of fire the second death and it says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire.
But, it says that about human beings in Revelation 14:9-11.
The Redeemer, Jesus, already came to Zion to turn transgressions away from Jacob! What more does He need to do to turn them away from their transgressions than to die for their sins?!
Acts 3:24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
All the prophets, including Isaiah in Isaiah 59:20-21, foretold of the days when Jesus would come to Zion and die for the sins of Israel and the whole world in order to turn transgressions away from Jacob and the whole world.
Jesus already located that passage. No need to misapply it!
This related to Christ's First Advent, and the aftermath. He is talking about AD70.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
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He is king now. He came as a king. You are fighting with Scripture. The term "right hand" here simply describes the place of supreme authority.
Before Jesus death in John 18:36 Jesus told Pilate: “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
In the next verse, Pilate asked Jesus: “Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
While Jesus did not come and meet the religious Jews faulty expectation of a physical territorial kingdom where the Messiah would reign over physical Israel and subjugate the Gentile nations. He did come as a spiritual king reigning over a spiritual kingdom.
Israel’s king had come and introduced His heavenly kingdom to this earth.
Kings carry authority. On Christ’s part, all authority. To deny Christ kingship is to deny His authority because both are inextricably linked.
Listen to how God revealed Christ to the wisemen in Matthew 2:1-2: “behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.”
Here you have it! The sacred text testifies to the fact that Jesus Christ was “born King of the Jews.”
John 1:47-49: “Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! … Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.”
As the Lord’s ministry came to an end on earth we see Him entering into Jerusalem triumphant on a donkey. He received the adoration of the people.
Listen to what they were shouting on Palm Sunday. The people declared in John 12:12-15: “Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt.”
The Roman soldiers mocked Jesus in Matthew 27:29: “when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!”
Their derision was directed toward Christ and the title because that is what belonged to Him, and that is what He claimed.
Above Jesus on the cross “Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS” (John 19:19).
By Christ’s own affirmation Pilate inscribed this great title upon the cross.
Kings carry authority. On Christ’s part, all authority. To deny Christ kingship is to deny His authority, because both are inextricably linked.
Repeated Scripture portrays a victorious Christ since His all-conquering resurrection.
Revelation 5:5 tells us: “behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed.”
The lion is known as the king of the jungle. It carries great authority and power. That is a very potent symbol of who Jesus is. By the way, the Bible does not say that Satan is a lion. It says that he walks about “like” a lion.
Jesus testified in Revelation 3:21: “I … overcame (speaking of Calvary), and am (present tense) set down with my Father in his throne.”
The enemy is already defeated. Satan is a defeated foe. Jesus spiritual bound his power and influence.
Repeated Scripture portrays a victorious Christ since His all-conquering resurrection.
Revelation 6:2 tells us: “And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.”
Jesus is supreme and exercises ultimate authority because He is ‘the LORD, and there is no other’. It is He who created everything, designated the boundaries it functions within, and how long it functions. His authority is so immense that He speaks and it happens. He sets rules and He cannot be questioned. He performs acts and cannot be resisted. God is matchless in His authority. He is unrivalled in His power.
Ephesians 1:17-21, “the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.”
This passage confirms the absolute authority that Christ now enjoys and reveals the unlimited scope of His current rule. It explicitly illustrates the current sovereign reign of Christ over all His enemies from the “right hand” of majesty on high.
Philippians 2:9 says, “wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.”
He reigns today over the seen and the unseen world making every power and every authority “subject unto him.”
1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”
Jesus is reigning now! There is so much is wrong with your theology that it is difficult to know where to begin. Repeated Scripture shows that Christ is king now. He is reigning in majesty upon high now! He is risen from the dead and He is Lord. All power and authority belongs to Him now. Your false teaching causes you to dethrone Christ from His sovereign place reigning over His enemies today. You ducked around the Scripture I presented that exposes your BIG-DEVIL and small-jesus theology. Your theology forces Christ to abdicate His throne at the right hand of majesty on high. Your teachers have taught you wrong! Israel’s king has already come, and introduced His heavenly kingdom.
Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds.
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Are you saying that you think Jesus was wrong to quote Zechariah 12:10 in relation to those who literally looked upon Him when He was pierced? If not, then why are you applying the verse to a different time than Jesus Himself did?
I will not bother saying any more since I know you will just ignore it or try to find a way around it just like you're trying to do against the mountains of evidence that WPM is providing that destroys your interpretation of the passage.
Excellent. Well said. The person whose argument you are refuting (destroying) clearly only skims the surface of scripture rather than actually making the effort to dig deeper to find the truth as you clearly have done. It's sad that someone can deny all the mountains of evidence that you are providing with one liner responses while clearly showing that they have not looked at this carefully at all.
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Who said any of that is part of His kingdom? No one. I know we will inherit the kingdom of God in its fullness bodily when Jesus returns, but do you not think you are in God's kingdom now spiritually? Have you not been born again?
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Are you not experiencing any "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"?
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
Have you not been rescued "from the dominion of darkness and brought..into the kingdom of the Son he loves"?
Agree. But, how do we get someone like her, who thinks that the kingdom of God is a different kingdom than the kingdom of heaven and that the day of the Lord, the day of God and the day of Christ are all different days, to understand any of these things? It's virtually impossible.
True. They duplicate everything because they have double vision. It is horrendous hermeneutics. Anything goes.
Do you understand that the Father and Son do not sit on literal thrones? Scripture says that heaven itself is God's throne.
Isaiah 66:1 This is what the Lord says: Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?
Are you somehow not aware that Jesus said He currently sits in His Father's throne?
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
The Father's throne is heaven and Jesus also sits on that throne with His Father which means heaven is His throne, also. So, you cannot say that He does not currently sit on His throne. His throne is also the Father's throne. He and the Father are one (John 10:30).
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
How can Jesus have all power in heaven and in earth without being on His throne? That's nonsense. He IS on His throne and His throne is heaven and all things in heaven and on earth are under His feet.
Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
How can Christ be "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with "all things under his feet" while being "head over all things to the church" without being on His throne! That's insane! That's impossible! He absolutely IS on His throne of heaven with all things under His feet as the head of all things to the church RIGHT NOW! Stop denying who Jesus IS right NOW! He IS the King of kings and Lord of lords. He IS "the ruler of the kings of the earth".
Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
This comment illustrates your lack of attention to detail when it comes to how you look at scripture. While it's true that Jesus is the light of the world (John 8:12), I am sure you were thinking of the following verse when you made that comment.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life. Not the way, the truth and the light.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
No. But that isn't the point is it? Paul said that the "adoption as sons" belongs to his kinsmen of the flesh. We need to deal with this fact.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Wrong. There are still transgressors among Jacob.
If you don't know, I can't tell you.
Dying for Jacob's sins did not turn transgressions away from Jacob.
I assume you understand the difference between Christ's work to save us from our sins and our responsibility to trust in God, as Abraham did. When God removes ungodliness from Jacob, He will circumcise their hearts so that each of them will become a believer. This event is to take place in our future, not our past.
Their flesh availed them nothing.
Romans 9
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
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God promised the obedient Laodiceans of Asia Minor, who were living in Bible times, in Revelation 3:21, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even (or hoos or, in what manner) as I also overcame (speaking of Calvary), and am (present tense) set down with my Father in his throne.”
The Premillennialist, try to create two separate thrones in this passage, instead of the one divine eternal throne outlined, in order to support his flawed paradigm. They mistakenly try to say that the Father’s throne here is not Christ’s throne, and that the two are separate. However, there is absolutely no biblical ground for differentiating between these two synonymous terms.
What is more: Jesus is shown to be reigning now on His Father’s throne.
The Pharisee tried to trip up Jesus with there legalistic nonsense. I wasn’t debasing scripture as you would try to imply, I was paraphrasing and you knew exactly what I meant as you yourself quoted 14:6. Though I’m sure you’re prefect in every utterance, the condemnation you seek will be recompense to you yourself.
love they neighbor as yourself. Peace be with you.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I agree. In Colossians 1:27 Paul calls it "the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints, which is Christ IN you, the hope of glory."
IMO Christ's Spirit in you = "the Kingdom of God within you", and it's the hope of glory (the coming Kingdom to be inherited by all the saints when Christ returns, and their bodies have been raised from the dead).
IMO it still means though that the Kingdom of God has come, but the Kingdom of God (which is part of the hope of glory) is still coming. Same Kingdom, different phases. Jesus said:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14).
The gospel of the Kingdom would first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations - by his disciples:
Acts 1
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own authority.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
IMO the reason why it appears that Amils and Premils don't agree on when the Kingdom of God came, and the fact that the saints still have an inheritance in the coming Kingdom of Christ to look forward to, is not actually because we don't all agree about those basics, but because the nature of the coming Kingdom that we will inherit when Christ has returned - whether it's the NHNE, or whether the NHNE "won't be for another thousand years yet" -
- gets us squabbling about the nature of the Kingdom of Christ that has already come and is within you - when in fact Amils and (I'm sure) most Premils actually agree on it.
If we leave the future till He returns, then the future will cause us to understand what the thousand years is (or, according to Amils), was talking about, and we won't "think" we disagree on the nature of the Kingdom of Christ that has come, nor the fact that the saints have an inheritance in the coming Kingdom to look forward to:
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." 1 Corinthians 2:9).
IMO 1 Corinthians 2:9 is all we need to understand. Pity about Dispensational theology that has to have the Kingdom "restored" to one ethnically identifiable nation which Jesus symbolized as a fig tree when He said,
"And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away." (Matthew 2:19).
Jesus is the seed of Abraham, so HE is Israel, and those He indwells who are IN HIM, are Israel, IMO.
IMO Christ's Spirit in you = "the Kingdom of God within you", and it's the hope of glory (the coming Kingdom to be inherited by all the saints when Christ returns, and their bodies have been raised from the dead).
IMO it still means though that the Kingdom of God has come, but the Kingdom of God (which is part of the hope of glory) is still coming. Same Kingdom, different phases. Jesus said:
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14).
The gospel of the Kingdom would first be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations - by his disciples:
Acts 1
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own authority.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
IMO the reason why it appears that Amils and Premils don't agree on when the Kingdom of God came, and the fact that the saints still have an inheritance in the coming Kingdom of Christ to look forward to, is not actually because we don't all agree about those basics, but because the nature of the coming Kingdom that we will inherit when Christ has returned - whether it's the NHNE, or whether the NHNE "won't be for another thousand years yet" -
- gets us squabbling about the nature of the Kingdom of Christ that has already come and is within you - when in fact Amils and (I'm sure) most Premils actually agree on it.
If we leave the future till He returns, then the future will cause us to understand what the thousand years is (or, according to Amils), was talking about, and we won't "think" we disagree on the nature of the Kingdom of Christ that has come, nor the fact that the saints have an inheritance in the coming Kingdom to look forward to:
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." 1 Corinthians 2:9).
IMO 1 Corinthians 2:9 is all we need to understand. Pity about Dispensational theology that has to have the Kingdom "restored" to one ethnically identifiable nation which Jesus symbolized as a fig tree when He said,
"And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away." (Matthew 2:19).
Jesus is the seed of Abraham, so HE is Israel, and those He indwells who are IN HIM, are Israel, IMO.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
When is He going to die for those transgressors?
Romans 11
26There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
What covenant was Paul speaking about? There are only two covenants given for transgression of sin:
1. The Mosaic Covenant, ratified with the blood of an animal, and required sacrifices for sins to be made daily in a temple, and once annually a sacrifice of atonement to be sprinkled on the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant in the holy of holies; and
2. The New Covenant in Christ's blood, bought by His once-for all sacrifice of His own life.
So which covenant is going to be given for those among Jacob's descendants "who are still transgressors", and when will their sins be purged, and by whom?
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