Premillennialism contradicts scripture (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) by having mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God when Jesus returns.
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It does not say He would force anyone to repent. He did what was necessary to provide the opportunity for redemption for their sins through repentance. They are all responsible to decide to accept what He did for them or not. You are denying what Acts 3:24-26 clearly says.
Acts 3:24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
You are basically saying that Jesus failed to do what God sent Him to do.
Yes, it did! Many did repent of their sins. God would never force all of them to repent. But, He sent His Son to provide the opportunity for their sins to be forgiven. What else do you think He needs to do for them? Jesus said "It is finished!". There's nothing else He needs to do for them.
People's hearts are circumcised every time they repent and place their trust in Christ. About 3,000 Jews did that on the day of Pentecost alone. You postpone what has already been happening for almost 2,000 years.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Again, you are missing the point. Paul says that the "adoption of sons" belongs to his kinsmen of the flesh. Their flesh is a critical aspect of God's promise to them. If he doesn't keep his promise to them, then God's word fails.
You may not realize that Paul often uses the genitive case to indicate the source of something. For example, in Romans 9:8, he refers to "children of the flesh," meaning those who were born through natural means. Reflecting on the story from Genesis, Sarah was initially unable to have children due to infertility, until God intervened and opened her womb. Isaac is described as a miracle baby because God had to heal Sarah's womb for him to be conceived. This is one reason Paul refers to Isaac as the "child of promise." In contrast, Ishmael was born naturally, as he was the son of Abraham and Sarah's handmaid. Isaac's birth, however, was a miraculous event, as it involved both Abraham and Sarah, after her infertility was miraculously healed.
Paul is not contrasting "flesh" vs. "spirit" in Romans 9. He is contrasting "natural born" vs. "supernaturally born". All of Abraham's children were his physical descendants. But Isaac was unique because he would not have existed apart from God's intervention.
He argues that although God made a promise to the descendants of Jacob, not all of Jacob's family line will be included in this promise, as inclusion will depend on God's intervention. Paul argues in Romans 11 that God always preserves a remnant for Himself and that Israel will remain partially blinded until the full number of Gentiles comes in.
Subsequently, God will remove the unbelieving descendants of Jacob from the earth, leaving the believing descendants of Jacob to witness the enthronement of Jesus on the throne of David.
Yes, He has. Open the NT and you will see the fulfillment of that.
Paul confirms:
1 Corinthians 15:25-26: “For he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”
Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death!
There you have it! The second coming sees the final subjugation of all:
· rule
· authority
· power
· death
Paul then reinforces this thought:
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 “For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under him. And when all things shall be (hupotasso) subdued (or subordinated or submitted to) unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to), that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
Paul, again, repeats the great truth that God “hath put all things under his feet” as He reigns in majestic glory upon high. The reign described here is aorist active indicative, meaning it is ongoing. He also shows, whilst Christ is reigning over His enemies as Lord and God, they will NOT be made His footstool, subdued and put down until the second coming.
The whole focus here is the current reign of Christ upon the heavenly throne that will culminate in the final downfall of all his enemies when he appears. Then we'll his enemies finally be subdued, put down, and made his footstool.
Hebrews 1:2, 3, 2:9 says, “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.”
There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn't. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.
1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”
Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.
What do you mean God-fearing? Are you talking about being redeemed? Are you talking about those who are saved?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Paul is recounting history, reminding Israel that Jesus called them all to repent. Matthew 4:17 for example. Historically speaking, some repented, while others didn't. I am not saying that Jesus failed in his mission. He told Israel that they would fulfill Isaiah's prediction: although the report goes out, they would refuse to listen.
Isaiah asked God how long this stubborn condition would remain, and God tells Isaiah, "This condition would stay for many years "until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate, The Lord has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land." Eventually, the number of Jacob's descendants will become so small, that "there will be a tenth portion in it, And it will again be subject to burning, Like a terebinth or an oak Whose stump remains when it is felled. The holy seed is its stump.”
When it says that "ungodliness will be removed from Jacob," it isn't referring to the abstract concept of "unrighteousness," it refers to the unrighteous people. Before the end of history, the population of Israel will be reduced to one-tenth of its current size. That portion will be subjected to burning a la Joel 2, and Malachi 4. But God will save his consecrated ones from the fires, which Isaiah calls a "stump."
This hasn't happened yet.
I agree, some repented while others didn't. The fact that some didn't repent is evidence that God has not turned Jacob from transgressions.
God doesn't need to force all of them to repent to remove ungodliness from Jacob. Joel tells us how the process will take place. When the time comes, Israel will be called to Jerusalem to pray for God's deliverance from her enemies. The faithful ones living in Israel will hear and obey the call, leaving home to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem. God will send his armies of fire to incinerate everything in their path. Those who stay home will be killed. Those who traveled to Jerusalem will survive. In this way, God will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
Circumcision of the heart comes before repentance. Some would argue that they are simultaneous events. The point is, God is not waiting for someone to repent before he circumcises their heart.
Exactly. Premils focus on the fact that not all of His enemies have yet been put under Him while completely ignoring the scriptures which teach that all CURRENT things are under Him.
Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.
So, Premills see the last sentence in this verse and ignore what is written before that. What do they not understand about the statements "You have put ALL THINGS in subjection under his feet" and "He left NOTHING that is not put under him"? Why do Premills not accept what those statement explicitly say? Instead, they ignore them and only look at where it says "But now we do not yet see all things put under him.". What does that statement mean? Does it contradict the previous statements? No, it means, as you already explained, that "new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise".
Jesus currently reigns with ALL THINGS under Him, but there are still things that do not yet exist that are not yet under Him and while there is still death that last enemy is not yet under Him. But, all current things, as in all people, all kingdoms, all governments, all terrorist organizations, all angels, and so on are under His feet.
Yes, you are saying that whether you realize it or not. God sent Him to turn all of Jacob from their wicked ways and that's what He did. He did His part. Each person must choose to turn from their wicked ways or not. That's their responsibility. If someone refuses to turn from their wicked ways that does not mean Jesus did not do what was necessary for them to be set free from their wickedness while providing them the opportunity to receive the forgiveness of their sins. But, as for Jesus's part? As He said, "It is finished". Do you think there is anything else He should do to turn them from their wicked ways? If so, you are completely wrong about that. He didn't say "It is finished" for nothing.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The key element of Paul's statement in Romans 11:26 is the distinction between God's work of saving individuals from their sins and His work of delivering the Jewish nation from its enemies. Jesus has already died for our sins and the sins of the whole world including the descendants of Jacob. However, Paul refers to a future time when Jesus will come out of Zion to rescue Israel from her adversaries. At that time, as Jesus delivers Israel from her enemies, God will also remove ungodliness from Jacob. How does He achieve this?
According to Joel chapter 2, a call will go out to all of Israel to come to Jerusalem to pray for the deliverance of Israel. During that time God will send his armies of fire, who will destroy everything in their path. Those who remain behind will be incinerated, and those who make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem will survive. (Isaiah 1:9, 4:2) Malachi refers to the survivors as "those who fear the Lord," and those who don't survive are the "arrogant evil ones." (Malachi 4) They will be incinerated.
In this way, God will remove ungodliness from Jacob, leaving survivors who fear the Lord.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You mistakenly concluded that Romans 11:26 is concerned with the salvation of souls, rather than the deliverance of a nation. Paul is referring to the deliverance of the nation of Israel, after its branches are restored to the tree.
The Bible distinguishes between the salvation of souls and the deliverance of a nation from her enemies. You are talking about the salvation of souls, Paul is talking about the deliverance of Israel. His teaching is based on Isaiah's prophecy, as written in chapter 52, which describes a man who comes to deliver Israel from her enemies.
The prophet is not talking about cleansing Israel of her sins; he is talking about removing ungodly people from her midst. A man will come to judge her enemies. He will repay wrath to his adversaries and recompense his enemies. Isaiah 52:18, and during that time he will come to those who turn from transgression in Jacob." Isaiah 52:20
Paul argues that branches were broken off so that the Gentiles might be grafted in. Romans 11:19. He also anticipates that Israel will come to faith and that her branches will be returned to her tree. Romans 11:24 He also expresses his joy and wonder that eventually Israel will be grafted back on to her own tree. And won't this be great? Romans 11:28-32
Yes! Premillennialists highlight the phrase “now we see not yet all things put under him.” They present it as evidence that Christ is not ruling at the moment. But they (1) fail to interpret what this is actually saying and they (2) fail to quote all the surrounding evidence as context. This phrase is telling us: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. The process of subjugation is ongoing to the second coming.
And once again you avoid the Scriptures that explicitly teach that. You have to! Your fight is with God's Word, not with me. You deny the deity of Christ. You belittle His kingship. You strip Him of His authority. You dethrone Him from the right hand of glory. You exalt the power of Satan. You make the devil King and Lord of the affairs of life and man. You ignore Scripture after Scripture that refutes your error. This is heresy.
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Hebrews 1:1-3, 2:8-10 says, “God … Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … Thou hast put [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under [Gr. anupotaktos or not made subject, unsubjected] him. But now we see not yet all things put under [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”
There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. This is a present ongoing reality. It is a current arrangement. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn’t. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.
Premillennialists highlight the phrase “now we see not yet all things put under him.” They present it as evidence that Christ is not ruling at the moment. But they (1) fail to interpret what this is actually saying and they (2) fail to quote all the surrounding evidence as context. This phrase is telling us: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. The process of subjugation is ongoing to the second coming.
The sovereign king reigns majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn’t. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is definitely not out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, as God sees fit.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
When did Israel mourn over Jesus? They hadn't yet. But they will.
This is a local event. Notice that the mourning takes place in Jerusalem. The Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Presumably, they will look on him whom they pierced from Jerusalem.
One can assume that some people looked at Jesus while he was on the cross. But the only ones to mourn over him that day were his followers and his mother. But they didn't pierce him. The Romans did. So did the house of David. They didn't mourn over the death of Jesus; they wanted him dead, and they made their wishes known, crying out, "Crucify him!"
When did God pour out his spirit of grace and supplication on the house of David? He hadn't yet. But he will. Instead, God poured out his wrath on the house of David during the Roman/Jewish wars of AD70, when God allowed the Romans to attack his temple and destroy his city.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I ignored the scriptures you presented because they don't say what you think they say, and because the Word of God is all about proof and evidence. And since you ignore the evidence, you misunderstand the Bible. They used to say that reason is the enemy of faith, but that was never true. The enemy of faith is not reason; the enemy of faith is fantasy. And for you to say that Jesus is ruling over his enemies right now is nothing but fantasy.
It doesn't seem to matter to you what the Bible says. You just make it up as you go. You a re trying to re-write history and you're trying to re-write the Word of God to support your false teaching. That is a foolish thing to do.
John 19:5-7 records, “Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man! When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.”
Matthew 27:24-25 records, "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."
John 1:10-11 says, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”
Acts 2:22-23 says, “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.”
Acts 2:36 says, “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 3:12 says, "And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses."
Pilate submitted himself to the sentence of the Jews - it was them that condemned Him, sentencing the Messiah to death. Acts 4:8-10 confirms, "Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole."
Acts 5:30-31: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 7:51-52: “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”
Paul the Apostle outlines this fact, when speaking of the Jews and the impending wrath of God on the nation of Israel, in 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, “For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”
He was nailed to the tree at the behest of evil men, but for it to be His own kith-and-kin was the tragedy. Israel is still feeling the consequences of rebellion.
You fight with Scripture! The reason you avoid them is because they exposure your position.
His sitting at the Father’s right hand indicates that he has been given all power and authority to rule until all authorities and peoples submit to his governorship (I Cor. 15:24-29; Phil. 2: 9-11).
Satan is god over his kingdom “the world” but not over the elect, the planet and creation and the direction of this world. Christ reigns over everything. He enjoys all power today as King of kings reigning over His enemies.
Christ is reigning and ruling now at the right hand of majesty on high, regardless of what some think. Premil tries to dethrone Him.
Scripture shows a sovereign Christ reigning over the kingdoms of this world. Premil is constantly exalting Satan’s power. Premil tries to dethrone Christ from His current kingship over the power of darkness.
God has supreme authority over all mankind. What He ordains or allows goes. That is the sovereignty of God in operation. If Christ is God (and He is) then no one can hinder Him or stay His hand. He carries all power (yes all power). If that is so, He lets and it is. He resists and it is not. That is what it is to be King over all and to reign over your enemies. Christ is reigning since the resurrection. Jesus is still reigning in these last days (the intra-Advent period) and putting all enemies under His feet. All the result of the fall and every enemy of righteousness will be finally eliminated at Christ’s coming. Men can still submit to His rule, however, when He returns with a rod of iron that is the end.
There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall, but they are all on borrowed time. It is only a matter before each earthly kingdom crumbles. There are still enemies to be born and subjugated. But the sovereign king reigns unchallenged in His power and authority ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). What He causes happens, what He allows happens. Nothing more and nothing less. This is proof that Christ is indeed reigning now over all (including His enemies).
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Your eyes must have glazed over when you read Hebrews 1:2, where Paul explicitly says that Jesus is the heir of all things. An heir has a future entitlement—something that is coming to them, but which they do not yet possess. For example, a prince is the a priori heir to the throne, meaning he is expected to inherit it, but he does not hold the power of a king until the actual succession takes place.
Hebrews 1:2 states that God "has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things." In this context, "heir" signifies Jesus' divine authority and rightful ownership over all creation, emphasizing His preeminence and sovereignty. Hebrews presents Jesus as the heir, but His full inheritance—His rule over the earth—culminates at His second coming. The idea of Jesus as the rightful ruler who will establish His kingdom on earth is a central theme in biblical eschatology, reflecting prophecies like those in Daniel 7:14, where "His dominion is an everlasting dominion.
This understanding ties into the broader biblical narrative of redemption: while Jesus has already secured victory through His death and resurrection, the full realization of His reign over the world is yet to come. His second advent marks the completion of God's plan, bringing justice, restoration, and the fulfillment of the promises made throughout Scripture.
While that may be true of some Premillennialists, I take the more pragmatic approach and simply look out my window to see that Christ is not ruling over the world right now.
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