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Gandalf-

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Thank God for scholars, even secular humanist ones at times, who can be capable again, at times in keeping believing scholars honest. There isn't a sound linguistics scholar out there who will not tell you that context determines meaning. Biblical Hebrew is an extremely pregnant language, far more pregnant than most people realize, and therefore is the most, with Aramaic, ambiguous of the two families of biblical languages.

On the Hebrew word roots themselves, Biblical Hebrew alons is one of the most pregnant languages in existence. this can be demonstrated in the Hebrew Lexicon, in the back of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. In the Lexicon it is easy to find tons of Hebrew words with 10, 20, 30, ...100, ....150 meanings, etc.., Then the eventual NASB and NIV Exhaustive Concordances which eventually came out, I own them, as well as various Hebrew Lexicons, and word study books, including the two volume TWOT Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, etc..,

Not to mention books on how biblical Hebrew words, that admit, and instruct, how the Hebrew unattached ( meaning not added as a new part of a Hebrew word, for new coining or modifying a word, ) prefixes, which as the simple articles, etc.., we assume them to be, can be thought of as prepositional phrases, etc.., And that a simple Mem for example prefixed to a Hebrew root ( word ) can mean "Towards," or "From," or "As if Towards," or "As if From," etc.., thus demonstrating that not only can Hebrew prefixes can have equal and opposite meanings, but these equal and opposite meanings can even be expressed as entire modifying phrases based on a single letter prefix, and even a simple two single letter prefixes, can express their own modifying phrases themselves. So that a "Waw" and "He" two letter prefix can mean more than just merely "And The," and then, so again, apart from how complicated and pregnant biblical Hebrew - it is always the biblical passage that determines the translation. Was it "away from" in the passage context, or was it "as if away from" ?

And likewise Biblical Greek is also an extremely pregnant language, but no where as pregnant, or nearly as ambiguous as Biblical Hebrew. Because unlike the Hebrew, God chose a language, in the Greek ( Indo European language family ) in which the Biblical Greek, from the Septuagint, and Old Greek counter translations, etc.. would often coin new words, or word usages, unlike the Hebrew, by often combining, or smashing words together, giving you something far more concrete and thus less ambiguous than the Hebrew.

And those behind the NIV, have done some brilliant work over the years, including releasing Interlinear Greek English New Testaments, with the use of the + plus sign, to show where individual Greek letters were inserted in between to two or three Greek words smashed together, coining a new word, to show how the additional letters inserted into the smashings, represent like the hebrew, represent additional word modifyers, of various helper parts of speech.

And it can take decades, if not a hundred years, or so, for Greek Scholars, and Greek Scholar Comities, to decide to change their minds as to what they think the best translation of a Greek word should be. In revelation 22:7 such has occurred, when the consensus had always been the Greek word used should be translated as Quickly, when in more recent years more and more bible translations have changed this opinion and understanding to Soon.


So which is it, the older Quickly, or the newer Soon? The newer scholarship sees it a Soon, as in a non immediate time or non immediate temporal context, if you prefer.



And so while the debate rages, the truth is like Hebrew Biblical Greek is both pregnant - And it comes down to the expertise of the Greek Biblical Scholars you believe in, only to the extent of the Greek Scholars you believe in, only so far >>>> Because the context of all forms of Preterism are all simply puzzle factory reject nuts in my opinion.

And Biblical prophecy likewise is very complex. It allows God a justifiable deniability, in which God does not have to, and does not reveal the truth to those who believe. But for those who believe, it is clear and obvious that God splits and divides passages, which draws prophecy from said passages. Such as in individual psalms, where David may describe his situation, and things about himself, while God inserts, and or makes thru David, prophecies of the first coming of Christ was given.

And likewise prophecies were likewise given by God, which foretell the first and second coming of Christ as well. And some of those passages may have appeared to be about Israel as well, but the context more carefully shows that Israel my Servant clearly means the Messiah in the context given.

As the Bible was written by many men, over a very long period of time. And when new prophetic insights etc.., were given, they would at times apply the principle of Midrash, where they prophetically were allowed to serve God thru updating the meaning of a passage. In fact the entire Septuagint did that a lot. The Septuagint was merely a Greek translation of the Torah, or the first five books of the law of Moses. And then continuing in time, the rest of the OT was translated into Greek in, and as, individual OT Books / Scrolls. And starting with Origen, and his Hexapla, gathered various versions of the OT scrolls that had been translated into Greek, in parallel columns, to try and resolve discrepancies in Greek OT translated scrolls.
 
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Gandalf-

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The NT gospel authors used a ratio of about 60% of the Septuagint Greek, and about 40% of the Hebrew OT, with a few slightly different Greek, and even at least one instant in Matthew where he created his own translation of a text that has no parallel in any written version of the OT. The NT authors were given by God, to be able to apply the technique tat updated the Midrash that had already been applied to the Septuagint.

And so apart from Midrash updates, or older standard texts, God still split prophecies from a psalm about David, in which David himself wrote said psalm, which had split material about David, and Christ's first coming both, and God was responsible for other split OT Prophecies split over being first and second coming passages about Christ.

And especially based on the Septuagint, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.., 2nd Temple Judaism had many split beliefs, including some sound, to various degrees, and not, what the coming of the Messiah will mean. ut some of those Jews were wrong,and likewise came to believe they had been replaced. They were all over the place in interpretation, and part of it was likewise due to prophecy, including in Isaiah, of the partial hardening of Israel, for those who refused to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

And likewise ( with me purposefully using a one year overlap for convenience sake, ) God created Metanarratives within the Bible, including one in which the seven days of creation had a symbolic metanarrative narrative. So God created such symbolic metanarratives such as from the creation as so understood to be in 4004 B.C. to 2004 B.C. to symbolically represent the first two days. And from 2004 to 4 B.C, to symbolically represent the next two days, and from 4 B.C. to 1996 A.D. to represent the next two days, so that six days had passed symbolically. And then God gives us a dual use symbolic stretch, in which the final 7th day symbolically represented two days, or two thousand years, representing the Day of the Lord, in the Already and Not yet Paradigm, stretching forwards from 70 A.D. to 2070 A.D. for the symbolic potential Day of the Lord extending in partial to full fulfilment from 70 A.D. to 2070 A.D.

And likewise God even used that same 1,000 years of the 7th day, to symbolically look backwards to a long period of time mankind believes to be true. And so that day symbolically goes back to 4.6 Billion years ago. Mankind has 46 chromosomes, thus symbolically going back to 4.6 billion years ago. The word for Adam meaning man equals 45 in Hebrew, but 46 in Greek, meaning going back symbolically 4.6 billion years ago. And the 120 commandments have the first 4 about God, and the final six about mankind, thus symbolically also referring back 4.6 billion years ago, etc.., etc., etc.,

So for 2,000 years we have been in the last day. And we as the Church, in the Church Age, or the Time of the Gentiles are the 3rd Temple of God, until the Great Apostacy causes the Church to be rejected next in the fulfillment of final end times prophecy, at which time Israel will rebuild the physical 4th Temple and finish fulfilling God's end times prophecy, including the final 144,000 end times saints.

Preterists of every stripe either have to take all unfulfilled biblical prophecy which was left unfulfilled, no matter how much future, or how much of a worldwide event it was to be, to have to have been fulfilled in Jerusalem only, all by 70 AD, or newer versions of Preterism to claim, well some of the universal and worldwide fulfillment occured by the complete fall of the Roman empire?

Well that's all nute. The linguistic or textual context, all refutes the insanity of every form of Preterism, in my book, or in the book of anyone who is spiritually sane in my opinion. There is no point in parsing Biblical Greek with a Preterist, because they will concede nothing, but their interpretation of all biblical prophetic passages is insane to me.

Daniel 7:12 alone, after the initial passage of the beast kingdoms leading to the 1st coming / advent of Christ, where Dn 7: continues to cornicle to the very end at judgement day, and the beast was defeated, and burned, but in Dan 7:12 as for the rest of the beasts their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted them for a time and seasons ( look it up in the hebrew, ) and from Dan 13: and on the 2nd coming of Christ and judgement is discussed in more detail, and then it goes into more on the 4rth beast again, much like Revelation which has repeating sections, modeled after how Daniel 7: jumps in time too.

But however one chooses to interpret Daniel, and Revelation, Preterists cram all of this, and all other OT prophetic passages on the Day of the Lord, as all having occurred in 70 AD in Jerusalem, or some shortly after at the fall of the Roman Empire? That's all just nuts.

And their NT are all crazy as well. Of course we, the Church, is the 3rd Temple, but the Jews will be grafted back in, and build the4th Temple, and complete the fulfilment of all remaining end times prophecy. And the Day of the Lord, and in that Day, is a split 2,000 split partial and full fulfilment in a futurist interpretation. Preterism is apparently the end times great apostacy, coming eventually for the entire apostate end times great falling away apostacy itself.

Don. K Preston is a massive heretic, ad while a clever enemy of the truth, as mny such clever enemies exist, he clearly is one. I have listened to everything he says / teaches, and he converts no one who are sound at all.


Thanks again

and God Bless,

Mike
 

Gandalf-

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I will intend this section to be an answer on the first objection I have received so far. which is also intended to trash Don. k. Preston's views that all of the intended prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century. In the Bible God has given us two major Metanarratives, 1) on God, Christ, and the Bible - and has to do with God's limited or judicious use of symbolism and types, and 2) likewise on the Enemy, as well as giving them over to powerful delusions as well, as the Bible informs us is what will happen. but which will have symbolism and types as well. And as such will contain limited use of numerological symbolism too. And again God does so thru very limited or a finite use of number symboLism, as well as thru Gematria as well. -And God does so as well to directly witness against both the Kabbalah and Gnosticism, as amongst the highly destructive tools of the enemy, for a faithless, disobedient, and faithless world, which has the lost attempting to falsely thinking they are gods in their own minds specifically thru the Kabbalah, and Gnosticism, Both of which God both exposes and refutes very early on in Isaiah, etc.., And this is an rea in which Don. K. Preston likewise displays he does not know what he is talking about.

I used to play electric guitar 37 years ago, from classic rock, to heavy metal for about 10 years before becoming a Christian, with heavy metal being my favorite, with Black Sabbath being my favorite band, followed by Led Zeppelin, followed by Pink Floyd, etc.., At very loud levels with my Metal, I would mellow out afterwaRds with Floyd at lower levels - and thus without realizing it, I was much more of an expert on the Gnostic and the Kabbalistic world, via man's rebellion than I knew. I immediately wound up picking up few books such as the rebirth of music, on Ezekiel chapters 26: thru 28: on how the Anointed Cherub Who Covers in Eze 28 was the director of music in heaven, before his rebellion and fall. And so within 6 months of becoming a Christian, I picked up an Interlinear Hebrew, Greek, English Bible, with a KJV translation where a left and center cross reference notes would normally be, and a J.P. Green literal word for word translation was given beneath every single Biblical Language word, and a strong's number was given above every word. And the J. P. Green literal word for word / translation, and thus commentary as well, was a real eye opener as well.


And so I made to make myself an expert on Pattern Recognitions, to see what the enemy was up to, as well as the patterns God placed there, to try and become an expert on what God witnessed to for and about Christ Jesus, as well as against the enemy. And I have found more of God's typological and symbolic witness quite recently, but some I have seen for years.

And again,when Jesus often spoke in the gospels, apart of the immediate context, Christ also spoke a double meaning at times, against the Gnosticism of the World System, reminiscent of Anti-Gnostic passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah, etc.., So of these Anti-Gnostic double meanings, all throughout the gospels, such as when Christ said in Mat 19:24 "And again when I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle," and again in Mat 23:24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel" - apart from their in context context - also call back to such Anti-Gnostic texts such as Jeremiah 2:23-25 "How can you say, I am not defiled, I have not gone after the Baals? Look at your way in the valley! Know what you have done! You are a swift young camel entangling her ways, A wild donkey accustomed to the wilderness, that sniffs the wind in her passion, In the time of her heat, who can turn her away? All who seek her will not become weary, In her month they will find her. Keep your feet from being unshod,And your throat from thirst:...." and so on, and so forth does Jesus continue to confront them on their Gnosticism indeed.

And the books of Isaiah and Jeremiah go on to detail this Gnosticism of the world they had indeed gone after and embraced. I will respond to detail the Anti-Gnosticism Indictments found in Isaiah and Jeremiah both, below, and of which Jesus would continue to reference again and again in the gospels.

Isaiah 29: chronicles Jerusalem as the heart, is in the 3rd temple to come, in believers in Christ, as we are not destroy our temples, our bodies, in contrast to those of the world system, as Jimi Hendrix does in Voodoo Child ( A Slight Return, ) when he sings "Well, I stand up next to a mountain And I chop it down with the edge of my hand Well, I stand up next to a mountain And I chop it down with the edge of my hand" - hendrix is making war against God, and Jerusalem as the heart of the inner man / new3rd temple - Where Isaiah 29: refers to Jerusalem as Ariel, which means An Altar Hearth, - And Isaiah 29: goes on to tell us Woe Ariel, and goes on to discuss her distress, where she will be brought low and from the earth you shall speak, from the dust where you are prostate, and again how you will be like a spiritist, and from the ground your speech shall whisper from the dust, but your enemies shall become like fine dust, like chaff, etc.., etc.., etc..,

And Isaiah 9:20, 29:6-8, 49:26, etc.., on how each will eat the arm olf his own flesh, and those who wage war with Ariel, shall be like a dream, a vision of the night, and it will be like when they dream, are hungry, and et, but are never satisfied, and how they will stagger, and cut off the arm on the left, or right, and will not be satisfied, ad how God will feed your oppressor's their own flesh and their own blood - again like dreams and visions of the night - because this is all Anti-Gnostic prophecy of what will befall those who are the enemy of God. And this is what the song Kashmir by Led Zeppelin is all about


More to come
 
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Randy Kluth

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I only read the 1st post, and you remind me of my brother, who talks this way, none of which I can retain. ;) He loves the biblical languages and has noted things similar to what you have mentioned.

I have a modest interest in the subject, and read at least one history of biblical interpretation. I will add just a few comments here.

1st, I think God is almost dismissive of all attempts to reduce prophecy to a mathematical formula. His goal is to express moral truths, which if not accepted leaves one trying to put prophecy into the category of "crystal ball reading." Messiah as a Suffering Servant was there in the Prophets, and yet was not something those who wanted to fight Rome could understand. And God intended Messiah to be understood in a spiritual sense first, and only after that as a Conquering Lion.

On the subject of Preterism, there is an entire field of study on the Kingdom of God. I don't think one can tackle Preterism without knowing something about the various views of the Kingdom of God.

The biggest problem, from my point of view, is the necessity of properly seeing the difference between the present activity of the Kingdom and the future activity of the Kingdom . Read "The Presence of the Future," by George E. Ladd, if you want to appreciate some of the associated problems.

I am not a Preterist because I hold these two concepts separate from one another, and yet partly related. But Preterism is only a limited application of the study of the Kingdom of God, focusing on what prophecy has been fulfilled and what has not, finding most future prophecy fulfilled in the 1st centuries of the Church, and in particular in Christ's 1st Coming. It may not deny a future Kingdom is coming, but it finds eschatology to extend beyond the content of biblical prophecy, reserved for "another time" and "another world."

Preterism also deals with the problem of what is commonly called "Replacement Theology," the idea that "Israel" is intended, biblically, to refer not to the carnal nation, but actually, to the spiritual "nation," aka the International Church. I find that absurd, to view a literal nation as intended by God to be a metaphor for an entity consisting of many nations. One nation does not equal Many Nations!

So Preterism covers several subjects, and the Kingdom of God is a vast subject in itself. So I can't hope to address the whole matter here. Let me just say that as much as I agree with you about the associated language problems, most language problems are intended to be resolved not by reducing words, scientifically, down to concrete meanings. Rather, they are resolved by their use in *context,* since words are by nature applied in a very flexible way.
 
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Gandalf-

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Again reserved for later where I will discuss fulfilled prophecy which again refutes Preterism
 

Truth7t7

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I only read the 1st post, and you remind me of my brother, who talks this way, none of which I can retain. ;) He loves the biblical languages and has noted things similar to what you have mentioned.

I have a modest interest in the subject, and read at least one history of biblical interpretation. I will add just a few comments here.

1st, I think God is almost dismissive of all attempts to reduce prophecy to a mathematical formula. His goal is to express moral truths, which if not accepted leaves one trying to put prophecy into the category of "crystal ball reading." Messiah as a Suffering Servant was there in the Prophets, and yet was not something those who wanted to fight Rome could understand. And God intended Messiah to be understood in a spiritual sense first, and only after that as a Conquering Lion.

On the subject of Preterism, there is an entire field of study on the Kingdom of God. I don't think one can tackle Preterism without knowing something about the various views of the Kingdom of God.

The biggest problem, from my point of view, is the necessity of properly seeing the difference between the present activity of the Kingdom and the future activity of the Kingdom . Read "The Presence of the Future," by George E. Ladd, if you want to appreciate some of the associated problems.

I am not a Preterist because I hold these two concepts separate from one another, and yet partly related. But Preterism is only a limited application of the study of the Kingdom of God, focusing on what prophecy has been fulfilled and what has not, finding most future prophecy fulfilled in the 1st centuries of the Church, and in particular in Christ's 1st Coming. It may not deny a future Kingdom is coming, but it finds eschatology to extend beyond the content of biblical prophecy, reserved for "another time" and "another world."

Preterism also deals with the problem of what is commonly called "Replacement Theology," the idea that "Israel" is intended, biblically, to refer not to the carnal nation, but actually, to the spiritual "nation," aka the International Church. I find that absurd, to view a literal nation as intended by God to be a metaphor for an entity consisting of many nations. One nation does not equal Many Nations!

So Preterism covers several subjects, and the Kingdom of God is a vast subject in itself. So I can't hope to address the whole matter here. Let me just say that as much as I agree with you about the associated language problems, most language problems are intended to be resolved not by reducing words, scientifically, down to concrete meanings. Rather, they are resolved by their use in *context,* since words are by nature applied in a very flexible way.
Preterism largely evolves around the Olivet discourse in Matthew Chapter 24 and three select items seen below

(Partial Preterist) Largely Believe Items 1 & 2 are fulfilled, with item 3 being future

(Full Preterist) believe all 3 items are fulfilled

(Futurist) believe all 3 items are future

1.) Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD

2.) Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation

3.) Matthew 24:29-31 The Second Coming
 

rwb

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Preterism largely evolves around the Olivet discourse in Matthew Chapter 24 and three select items seen below

(Partial Preterist) Largely Believe Items 1 & 2 are fulfilled, with item 3 being future

(Full Preterist) believe all 3 items are fulfilled

(Futurist) believe all 3 items are future

1.) Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD

2.) Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation

3.) Matthew 24:29-31 The Second Coming
The main problem I find with Preterits is that they elevate ethnic Jews above the universal Church. They interpret the Olivet Discourse as though Christ is speaking primarily of the Jewish people. Preterits seem not to understand that Christ was speaking to His disciples, who though Jewish were first and foremost believers in Christ. Instead of interpreting the Olivet Discourse as being given for the universal Church as the Gospel is sent unto all the world, they limit most of the Discourse to Christ speaking to ethnic Jews about all that will befall them.

I don't deny that some of what Christ says only makes sense when interpreted as coming against the nation, but even that which happens to the nation is written to be a warning for the universal Church. So none of the Discourse should be limited to the nation of old.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Preterism largely evolves around the Olivet discourse in Matthew Chapter 24 and three select items seen below

(Partial Preterist) Largely Believe Items 1 & 2 are fulfilled, with item 3 being future

(Full Preterist) believe all 3 items are fulfilled

(Futurist) believe all 3 items are future

1.) Matthew 24:15 Daniel's AOD

2.) Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation

3.) Matthew 24:29-31 The Second Coming
Certainly that is a major part of it, but is an incomplete definition unless its framework is discussed as well. It is a system that sees *most* biblical prophecy fulfilled in the past. This is not just the Olivet Discourse, or Mat 24/Mark 13/Luke 17,21. But it very importantly includes the book of Revelation, as well. Your definition falls very much short of saying that, and I must add that, if the position overall is to be properly understood.

It is a position that shies away from future prophecy, viewing OT prophecy as being largely fulfilled in Christ's 1st Coming and redemptive work. It leaves future prophecy to the realm of "beyond the world" speculation. History itself is the outworking of the Gospel signed, sealed, and delivered at the Cross.

This is important to me because a simplistic separation of different interpretations of the Olivet Discourse leaves many questions unanswered by any one school of interpretation. For example, historically the Church Fathers viewed the AoD and the Great Tribulation one way, almost in Preterist terms, and yet clearly were *not* Preterists. They held to historical interpretations, OT and NT.

Historicists may or may not have a Preterist view of the Olivet Discourse, and yet continue to find prophetic fulfillments in NT history. So their view of the Olivet Discourse may seem "Preterist," but actually is not.

I myself have a Preterist-like view of the Olivet Discourse, and yet am a futurist, applying future prophecy to the book of Revelation, the Reign of Antichrist, and the 2nd Coming. I see the Great Tribulation as fulfilled not just in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but more, as just beginning in 70 AD and continuing, as a Jewish Punishment, throughout the NT age.

At the same time, I view the AoD as fulfilled in the Roman devastation of Jerusalem in 70 AD. So just looking at the Olivet Discourse in one way, as if the AoD and the Great Tribulation belongs to the Preterist position, is false, and needs to be dissected better than that.
 
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Randy Kluth

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I will intend this section to be an answer on the first objection I have received so far. which is also intended to trash Don. k. Preston's views that all of the intended prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century. In the Bible God has given us two major Metanarratives, 1) on God, Christ, and the Bible - and has to do with God's limited or judicious use of symbolism and types, and 2) likewise on the Enemy, as well as giving them over to powerful delusions as well, as the Bible informs us is what will happen. but which will have symbolism and types as well. And as such will contain limited use of numerological symbolism too. And again God does so thru very limited or a finite use of number symboLism, as well as thru Gematria as well. -And God does so as well to directly witness against both the Kabbalah and Gnosticism, as amongst the highly destructive tools of the enemy, for a faithless, disobedient, and faithless world, which has the lost attempting to falsely thinking they are gods in their own minds specifically thru the Kabbalah, and Gnosticism, Both of which God both exposes and refutes very early on in Isaiah, etc.., And this is an rea in which Don. K. Preston likewise displays he does not know what he is talking about.

I used to play electric guitar 37 years ago, from classic rock, to heavy metal for about 10 years before becoming a Christian, with heavy metal being my favorite, with Black Sabbath being my favorite band, followed by Led Zeppelin, followed by Pink Floyd, etc.., At very loud levels with my Metal, I would mellow out afterwaRds with Floyd at lower levels - and thus without realizing it, I was much more of an expert on the Gnostic and the Kabbalistic world, via man's rebellion than I knew. I immediately wound up picking up few books such as the rebirth of music, on Ezekiel chapters 26: thru 28: on how the Anointed Cherub Who Covers in Eze 28 was the director of music in heaven, before his rebellion and fall. And so within 6 months of becoming a Christian, I picked up an Interlinear Hebrew, Greek, English Bible, with a KJV translation where a left and center cross reference notes would normally be, and a J.P. Green literal word for word translation was given beneath every single Biblical Language word, and a strong's number was given above every word. And the J. P. Green literal word for word / translation, and thus commentary as well, was a real eye opener as well.


And so I made to make myself an expert on Pattern Recognitions, to see what the enemy was up to, as well as the patterns God placed there, to try and become an expert on what God witnessed to for and about Christ Jesus, as well as against the enemy.

I will edit and again add to later
Again, that's interesting. I'm a great appreciator of music, being that my Dad and brother were musicians--the music gene eludes me. ;) And I agree, music has a powerful way of enhancing one's views, just like emotion makes an argument more convincing. Art confirms reality by imitating it in a powerful way. My wife has an artistic gene.

Word for word translations, I agree, can be useful. At the same time I believe it's important to recognize that languages cannot be translated that way and properly convey accurate meanings. Some words in one language require more words or have no word in another language.

There is also the danger, with emphasis on literal translations, in believing words have mystical powers and convey the same meaning, no matter the context. This is an interpretive fallacy. Context determines how a word is to be used. There is no one "biblical definition" for a particular word used in the Bible.

But I think you're right that there are "patterns" to be recognized. For example, the Scriptures are divine in origin, and follow a trajectory that makes rational sense for a Deity. Across all time a single purpose is followed and cannot be stopped. God set forth a covenant with Abraham and made some important irrevocable promises. And these continue all through history, unchallenged.

So when this "pattern" is understood, one can begin to interpret what "biblical words" mean to the authors, who all shared a single culture, based on Hebrew origins and based on the Law of Moses, along with the original covenant.
 
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Truth7t7

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I see the Great Tribulation as fulfilled not just in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but more, as just beginning in 70 AD and continuing, as a Jewish Punishment, throughout the NT age.

At the same time, I view the AoD as fulfilled in the Roman devastation of Jerusalem in 70 AD. So just looking at the Olivet Discourse in one way, as if the AoD and the Great Tribulation belongs to the Preterist position, is false, and needs to be dissected better than that.
Your view described is (Partial Preterist) as you believe Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD was fulfilled in 70AD, with Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation seeing partial fulfillment "starting" in 70AD

Your views are (Partial Preterist) a fact
 

covenantee

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Preterism and futurism share the same origin, both being the illegitimate spawn of the historical apostate papacy's Jesuit counter-reformation attempt to destroy the Protestant Reformation.

Both at their extremes are betrayals of that Reformation.
 
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Truth7t7

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I don't deny that some of what Christ says only makes sense when interpreted as coming against the nation, but even that which happens to the nation is written to be a warning for the universal Church. So none of the Discourse should be limited to the nation of old.
What in the Olivet discourse is written as coming against the nation, I presume Israel?
 

Randy Kluth

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Scripture affirms your view.
Why, thank you, brother! ;) I wrestled with the ID of the AoD for many years. To be honest, the Preterists, who I don't identify with, helped me to see this. They properly focused on the Olivet Discourse as a warning from Jesus about an imminent event designed to judge the Jewish People for rejecting their Messiah.

This then led me to view the Great Tribulation in terms that you likely would *not* agree with me. I only say this because my experience on the forums has been 100% opposed to my view--either that or eerie silence. I'm absolutely convinced the Great Tribulation began with the AoD and continues throughout NT history as the Jewish Diaspora, a Jewish Punishment.

Does this mean the Great Tribulation doesn't include Christian suffering, as well? Of course not! Jesus indicated that during the same time that Jews are punished, as a people, Christians among the Jews are persecuted by those who rejected Christ. And the same thing goes for Christians in other nations, whether their nations are pagan or anti-Christian.

But for now, I'm basking in a momentary agreement with you on the AoD matter! ;)
 
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rwb

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What in the Olivet discourse is written as coming against the nation, I presume Israel?

The one reply Christ gave to the questions the disciples ask was, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." It can be correctly argued that this came true for the nation in 70 AD. But that doesn't mean the AOD was connected exclusively to Jerusalem and the Old Covenant Temple. It can also be argued, correctly IMO that the AOD that brought Jerusalem to ruin is the same AOD that will bring to ruin any Church that commits the same abomination that the Jews of old had committed when they rejected the Messiah.
 

covenantee

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Why, thank you, brother! ;) I wrestled with the ID of the AoD for many years. To be honest, the Preterists, who I don't identify with, helped me to see this. They properly focused on the Olivet Discourse as a warning from Jesus about an imminent event designed to judge the Jewish People for rejecting their Messiah.

This then led me to view the Great Tribulation in terms that you likely would *not* agree with me. I only say this because my experience on the forums has been 100% opposed to my view--either that or eerie silence. I'm absolutely convinced the Great Tribulation began with the AoD and continues throughout NT history as the Jewish Diaspora, a Jewish Punishment.

Does this mean the Great Tribulation doesn't include Christian suffering, as well? Of course not! Jesus indicated that during the same time that Jews are punished, as a people, Christians among the Jews are persecuted by those who rejected Christ. And the same thing goes for Christians in other nations, whether their nations are pagan or anti-Christian.

But for now, I'm basking in a momentary agreement with you on the AoD matter! ;)
There is indisputable three-way consistency and corroboration across Matthew 24:15, Luke 21:20, and Daniel 9:26-27 identifying the AoD.

It was the Roman armies.
 
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Truth7t7

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The one reply Christ gave to the questions the disciples ask was, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." It can be correctly argued that this came true for the nation in 70 AD. But that doesn't mean the AOD was connected exclusively to Jerusalem and the Old Covenant Temple. It can also be argued, correctly IMO that the AOD that brought Jerusalem to ruin is the same AOD that will bring to ruin any Church that commits the same abomination that the Jews of old had committed when they rejected the Messiah.
It's my opinion that Jesus spoke symbolically of the temple being destroyed in Matthew 24:2, not a literal destruction as seen in 70AD, John's account is seen below, with greater information and detail

When Jesus Christ died on Calvary, the veil in the temple was rent/torn, the temple was destroyed, gone in the spiritual, never to be seen again

Matthew 27:50-51KJV
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

John 14:18-21KJV
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.