Pretrib fallacies

[David in NJ]

You should learn all the Titles that Apply to The Lord God, and What He is doing while on behalf of that Title…

Men as well have Titles, and perform tasks, deed, under the authority of whichever Title…

For Example…Donald Trump has numerous Titles…
Husband, father, dad, father-in-law, business owner, CEO, Neighbor, Acquaintance, Uncle, Chief, Commander, Employer, Boss, Grandfather, Executive Head, Diplomat, Mr. Trump, Associate, etc.

Yet in ALL likelihood…there is ONLY one Title the Majority of People should properly Address him…. Precisely established by a one To Relationship with him…
American?
Mr. President

The same applies to the Lord God Almighty.
Jesus may be “one man’s”, Rabbi, Teacher, Savior, Christ, Truth, Friend, God, Brother, Brethren, Seed, King, OR Lord, etc.
But not another’s man.

Glory to God,
Taken

Well said and easily received

 

[Taken]

Well said and easily received

Hope y’all are doing well, keeping you guys in my thoughts and prayers…especially your son!

God bless you and yours,
Taken

 

[David in NJ]

Hope y’all are doing well, keeping you guys in my thoughts and prayers…especially your son!

God bless you and yours,
Taken

We may have to remove the Cochlear implant from Daniel as he continues in pain.

Pain that no child should be in = sometimes his heart, lungs, kidneys, spine.............

Your Prayers are Precious and keep them going UP as sweet incense to the LORD

@GeneZ, you are welcome to lift UP prayer for Daniel(20) as it is written "Love is the Greatest of these"

 

[Taken]

We may have to remove the Cochlear implant from Daniel as he continues in pain.

Pain that no child should be in = sometimes his heart, lungs, kidneys, spine.............

Your Prayers are Precious and keep them going UP as sweet incense to the LORD

@GeneZ, you are welcome to lift UP prayer for Daniel(20) as it is written "Love is the Greatest of these"

On no… Sad to hear that for Daniel… Oh gosh, I know you and Mrs. are suffering a different kind of pain too… So sorry.
Would you consider… ANNOINTING his ears, mastoids with (your right hand) and oil and prayer for pain relief and restoration, as he lay maybe sleeping?

James 5:
[14] Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

I don’t believe the “type” of oil matters, but that it be a pure quality.
Pastor, deacon, friend present or not… the Saved Are the Church, that be you.
In Jesus’ name.

God bless,
Taken

 

[GeneZ]

We may have to remove the Cochlear implant from Daniel as he continues in pain.

Pain that no child should be in = sometimes his heart, lungs, kidneys, spine.............

Your Prayers are Precious and keep them going UP as sweet incense to the LORD

@GeneZ, you are welcome to lift UP prayer for Daniel(20) as it is written "Love is the Greatest of these"

Of course...
I prayed for him the moment I read he is in need of prayer....

Grace and peace... GeneZ

 

[WPM]

Pre - Before the Tribulation from Heaven …
Sent Because of WRATH…

The Wrath of The Lamb…
Toward those who Rejected Him.

The Wrath of the Devil …
Toward those who will Reject him.

The Wrath of God…
Toward those who Rejected Him.

All happens During the Great Tribulation sent from Heaven upon the whole Earth.

That Tribulation…its Effects…
Those Wraths……
Have Zero Application to THEY who ARE Saved Before The Tribulation BEGINS.

Nothing new under the Sun.
Just AS Faithful Noah, his Family Were NOT required to be:
Subject to …Gods Wrath
Subject to….Gods First Great Tribulations
“THEY” were LIFTED UP, above the face of the Earth….
While they ON Earth Suffered Destruction.

Greek…. Harpazo…means a Quick Removal.

Latin….. Rapio / Rapere’…means a Quick Removal.

English… Rapture…means a Quick Removal

1 Thes 4: 15-17,
describes the Quick Removal..
tells Who is Removing…
tells Who is Being Removed…
tells WHERE they are being Removed TO.

Matt 24:
Informs men, to be Prepared…
Because…there will be “A Removal of Some and Some will Remain ON Earth”

Matt 24:
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The Rapture IS the Lord Quickly Taking AWAY from the Face of the Earth…
Those that HE ALREADY Saved… and are not required to suffer Wrath or Tribulations Sent from Heaven.

Wrath is appointed to the Unsaved.
Wrath is Not appointed to the Saved.

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Post/Trib “Rapture”…. No.
There is NO Rapture, Quickly carrying away / or up Anyone After the Tribulation.

There is a GATHERING of the Body’s of the Saved ON Earth, who Remain ON Earth.
They “GO” nowhere.
Called First Resurrection.
Their Saved soul and Quickened spirit in Heaven, shall be returned to their new body on Earth.

The Third Return?
No Such Thing.

Glory to God,
Taken

None of that answers the question - none. You are reinforcing my thesis and the Op.

Ok. Lets test your so-called proof texts 1 by 1. Where in 1 Thessalonians 4 does it show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming? Where does it even show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period?

 

[WPM]

Actually Jesus returns twice...

Acts 1:
11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

In verse 9 we see a description....9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

In 1 Thes 4 we read about the resurrection/rapture (caught up) event.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Jesus simply ascended into the clouds...nothing spectacular. At the resurrection rapture event Jesus returns in the clouds the same way He left.

When we get to Rev 19 we see a different description of the return of Jesus....
11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

In Mark 16:19–20; Luke 24:50–53 there is no mention of a white horse. if Jesus ascended into heaven on a white horse surely Luke or Mark would have mentioned it.

There are obviously 2 returns as two distinctly different description are provided in the bible to read.

The pre-trib return...
In Luke 17 Jesus provides a description and relates it to the days of Noah and Lot
26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Jesus told us... "People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building." If you think about it if Jesus only returns once at the end of the great tribulation....considering what the world has just gone through I don't think people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building. BUT...in the pre-trib return scenario it describes what it is like today...people ARE eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage buying and selling, planting and building.

In all these: He is coming "with" and "for" His saints. It is the end! The wicked are destroyed and the world is regenerated. It sees a general resurrection and judgment.

 

[Taken]

None of that answers the question - none. You are reinforcing my thesis and the Op.

Ok. Lets test your so-called proof texts 1 by 1. Where in 1 Thessalonians 4 does it show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming? Where does it even show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period?

Sorry but All information is not in One Passage, One Chapter, One Book.

You seem to not comprehend…
God has offered a man the Opportunity to become MADE IN Gods Likeness…
A soul restored to Good, as it was when God gave it to man.
A spirit born of Gods Seed, that can Never Die.
A body cleansed of All Sin, that can sin no more.
A complete, perfect and holy individual with eternal Life With God, in a place of utter beauty and comfort.

They who Choose…
According to Gods Offering,
Receive Gods Offering…
According to Gods Order, Gods Way…

I have Taken, received much God has Offered, YET there is much more to Come unto me.

If you think you shall be upon the Earth during the Great Trib…experiencing horrific destruction and Wrath, that’s you….not me.

So, what exactly would you be doing upon the Earth During the Trib?

 

[GeneZ]

REST is ASSURED for us GeneZ = In CHRIST and in His Every Word = Matthew 4:4 & Proverbs 30:5-6

There is no need for any of us to be pitted against each other = for that is NOT God's Will

The only reason I may seem pitted against you is because I am not yet clear on what you believe.

And, to make matters worse?
When I challenged you with a question that only required a straight answer to settle it?
You responded with an answer that seemed somewhat vague, as if you were avoiding a direct answer.

Simply this.
Do you believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church?
Throwing in a 'yes' or 'no' would have set the record straight for me.

But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’
For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. Matthew 5:37​

What you left me with?
Was this...

Adding extra promises or dramatic language often hides a lack of truthfulness or creates loopholes.

I was wondering why you chose to answer in that manner.

That's all.

 

[David in NJ]

The only reason I may seem pitted against you is because I am not yet clear on what you believe.

And, to make matters worse?
When I challenged you with a question that only required a straight answer to settle it?
You responded with an answer that seemed somewhat vague, as if you were avoiding a direct answer.

Simply this.
Do you believe in the pre-trib rapture of the Church?
Throwing in a 'yes' or 'no' would have set the record straight for me.

But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ ​

For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. Matthew 5:37​

What you left me with?
Was this...

Adding extra promises or dramatic language often hides a lack of truthfulness or creates loopholes.

I was wondering why you chose to answer in that manner.

That's all.

GeneZ
This is from my previous post to you on: "Do i believe in the Rapture?"

God's Rapture for living/remaining Saints is 100% TRUTH = HalleluYAH

GOD Says: MY Resurrection PRECEEDS(Comes BEFORE) the Rapture = OT Prophets, Gospel, 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15

SHALOM in the TRUTH my brother GeneZ

 

[GeneZ]

God's Will is that there be no divisions within us and that we submit to every Word Spoken from our Heavenly FATHER

God has made it SIMPLE for us GeneZ = Matthew 18:1-5

At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

Only the truly matured believers will reach an inner state of being that makes us childlike, but not childish.
Jesus delights in believers who are childlike in their inner life of wonder, but adults in their thinking.

 

[GeneZ]

GeneZ
This is from my previous post to you on: "Do i believe in the Rapture?"

God's Rapture for living/remaining Saints is 100% TRUTH = HalleluYAH

GOD Says: MY Resurrection PRECEEDS(Comes BEFORE) the Rapture = OT Prophets, Gospel, 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15

SHALOM in the TRUTH my brother GeneZ

This part I found needs to be reworded.

GOD Says: MY Resurrection PRECEEDS(Comes BEFORE) the Rapture = OT Prophets, Gospel, 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

As worded? It makes no sense to me.

 

[David in NJ]

Only the truly matured believers will reach an inner state of being that makes us childlike, but not childish.
Jesus delights in believers who are childlike in their inner life of wonder, but adults in their thinking.

JESUS is also referencing the IMPORTANCE of believing His every word with child-like faith.

Without such, JESUS says we cannot enter His Kingdom

 

[David in NJ]

This part I found needs to be reworded.

GOD Says: MY Resurrection PRECEEDS(Comes BEFORE) the Rapture = OT Prophets, Gospel, 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

As worded? It makes no sense to me.

Here are the exact words of the Holy Spirit thru the Apostle Paul = 1 Thess 4:13-18
We can clearly see that the 2nd Coming of Christ and The Resurrection is BEFORE the Rapture

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first = Resurrection

After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up/Rapture together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[GeneZ]

JESUS is also referencing the IMPORTANCE of believing His every word with child-like faith.

Without such, JESUS says we cannot enter His Kingdom

I listen to a pastor who taught from the Hebrew and Greek texts.
There are some words, that when translated into English, that can easily mislead and misguide if the exact meaning is not understood.
When the Bible was written the readers did not face that problem.

That means? I agree about living by every word.

 

[GeneZ]

Here are the exact words of the Holy Spirit thru the Apostle Paul = 1 Thess 4:13-18
We can clearly see that the 2nd Coming of Christ and The Resurrection is BEFORE the Rapture

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first = Resurrection

After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up/Rapture together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

You believe in the Rapture.

 

[David in NJ]

You believe in the Rapture.

ABSOLUTELY = For the Holy Spirit cannot lie!

 

[WPM]

Let the attention seekers argue and throw out non subtantiated contrary statements.
Leave them alone...
They simply do not have grace working in them to know the truth.

Yet...
What many fail to realize?
The Rapture?
And, the Resurrection of the Church?
Are one and the same.

The Rapture is when the resurrection of the Church takes place!
These creeps become Resurrection deniers .

The issue is not the catching away. That is beyond dispute. It is a biblical fact. It is rather the extra-biblical idea of a trib period following it and then a 3rd coming. That is a the point of contention.

 

[WPM]

Sorry but All information is not in One Passage, One Chapter, One Book.

You seem to not comprehend…
God has offered a man the Opportunity to become MADE IN Gods Likeness…
A soul restored to Good, as it was when God gave it to man.
A spirit born of Gods Seed, that can Never Die.
A body cleansed of All Sin, that can sin no more.
A complete, perfect and holy individual with eternal Life With God, in a place of utter beauty and comfort.

They who Choose…
According to Gods Offering,
Receive Gods Offering…
According to Gods Order, Gods Way…

I have Taken, received much God has Offered, YET there is much more to Come unto me.

If you think you shall be upon the Earth during the Great Trib…experiencing horrific destruction and Wrath, that’s you….not me.

So, what exactly would you be doing upon the Earth During the Trib?

So, you are admitting what we all know: there is nothing in the Bible that teaches a rapture, followed by a tribulation period, followed by a third coming? Why then do you believe that?

It sounds like you are in love with a doctrine you have been taught not God's truth.

 

[GeneZ]

So, you are admitting what we all know: there is nothing in the Bible that teaches a rapture, followed by a tribulation period, followed by a third coming? Why then do you believe that?

It sounds like you are in love with a doctrine you have been taught not God's truth.

You have motivated me.
I have been looking in the Greek text to see if there are any warnings against people who love to gaslight Christians.