PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[Davy]

What's not written in God's Word is that it's not possible to get born again during the great tribulation.

Many who are not right with the Lord having previously been walking with Him (backsliders) will not be taken in the rapture and those that don't believe in the rapture will not be taken with so according to their faith it will be done unto them (they reap what they sow)

So right off the bat there will be those that recognize the error of their ways having been left behind and will be repenting and getting right with the Lord having to go thru the great tribulation - and these people will be witnessing to others telling them how to get right with the Lord so there's more believers coming on board there

That's all baloney. It reveals you actually DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS COMING at the end of this world prior to Christ's future coming.

As for the sins you mention, what did Lord Jesus say about the forgiveness of sin, and what sin is it that He said will not be forgiven? Thus you show another fake trait of the pre-trib rapture charlatans, how they are like the blind Pharisees with that attitude, like, "I'm glad I'm not a sinner like that one there...".

There ain't NO ONE gonna' being raptured before, nor during, the "great tribulation". Both Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul emphatically showed the gathering of the Church will be AFTER the tribulation, on the last day of this world, which is when the future resurrection will happen. Thus the pre-trib rapture school not ONLY rejects what Jesus showed for the time of His future coming, but they ALSO reject the Biblical time for the future resurrection on the last day! Those might as well just throw their Bibles away, since they show they don't care what The Bible as written teaches on the matter.

And funny that you should mention the Left-Behind theory from the fake Pre-trib Rapture charlatans. Their idea is NOWHERE WRITTEN in God's Word. At the end of Luke 17 where Jesus speaks of two in the field, one taken and the other left, etc., He was asked by His disciples "Where, Lord?" that those taken would be taken to. And Jesus showed those 'taken' will be as a dead carcase and will be where the fowls will be eating on dead prey. Jesus even repeated that idea in Matthew 24:28 for the during the "great tribulation" time.

So much for you stupidity on man's false Left-Behind theories from the fake Pre-trib Rapture school. You probably spent a lot of money on their Left-Behind series of books, like the 13 books Tim LaHaye wrote, all made up just to sell the deceived a lemon.

Well good luck with all that.

I'm not drinking the stinky Davy Gravy - it's not of the Lord.

You got that god complex running full steam ahead don't ya fake bro man?

See Revelation 3:9.

 

[The Light]

I've found this very same thing, no matter what reply is given, "No, you've never given any . . ." Like you say, empty denials.

Personally I've concluded that the most common reason that some will believe a pre-trib rapture and some don't, and that some believe a 1,000 year kingdom that follows Jesus' coming in glory and some don't, is that some believe Israel remains a nation before God, and some don't.

That's the heart, as I see it. Does Israel continue as an ethnic nation? Or is Israel cast away for what they've done, with the church now filling in the ranks of Israel?

The New Testament prophecies presuppose that Israel will be a nation in the world at the end of the age. The Old Testament prophesies make this very plain with many explicit statements.

So it seems natural to me that those who desire to show that Israel as a nation doesn't matter any longer will seek to restrict the use of the Old Testament passages that show Israel is promised in detail that the nation not only will remain, but will be rescued by Jesus, reborn, and placed as the head of nations in Jesus' 1,000 year rule.

And maybe that's the objection? I don't know. Maybe there are those who just can't stand the idea of Israel being promoted like that?

Much love!

I think this hits the nail on the head.

You would think they would look around and see that Israel has been reborn as a nation and that what they have been taught is fool's gold.

There are five wise and five foolish.

 

[The Light]

Oops! I forgot to go back and finish reading your post! You already mentioned this.

They are the first fruits of the 70th week salvation of Israel.

Much love!

Sounds like you understand that there are two raptures.

Is it so?

 

[marks]

Once two raptures come into play, every argument against a pretrib rapture goes up in smoke.

Personally I think this hinges on whether Israel is still God's chosen nation. Thinking otherwise forces people to abandon valid interpretation, because if Israel hasn't remained as God's chosen nation, with promises of blessing that will be fulfilled, then they have to account for quite a number of passages that read otherwise.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

I think of this as being subject to every word of God. These kinds of details are very limiting to one's interpretation. Unless, that is, if someone is willing to declare the passage as "spiritually understood", in which case, they can make it mean literally anything.

I think what happens is that someone concludes something like, The church is now Israel, and then goes on to find all the passages that seem to show that's not so. Rather than go back and re-examine the first assertion to see if maybe it's not correct, they go on to re-interpret these other passages so they can align with their assertion.

I find it better to just believe what's written the way it's written, of course.

Much love!

That a fact. How can you see when you change what is written?

 

[Davy]

We know this isn't including the Gentiles, as these are gathered separately, both righteous and wicked.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

I understand the previous parts of your post, but the above I have doubts about your interpretation.

I agree that when Lord Jesus returns, there will still exist Gentile nations on earth. But I also realize that Isaiah scripture like Isaiah 54 shows that Israel shall inherit the Gentiles and they will inhabit the old inheritances, meaning in the holy land.

I do not adhere to Darby's Dispensationalist theories which wrongly believes that when Jesus returns that only Israelites of the nation of Israel will be re-established in the holy land, while Christ's Church reigns with Him from Heaven. Darby came up with that theory it is obvious to support the false pre-trib rapture theory.

Like Apostle Paul said, with Christ's Church there is no difference between Jew or Gentile.

 

[marks]

Sounds like you understand that there are two raptures.

Is it so?

I wouldn't call it two raptures, but here is what I see:

There is the church in Christ that will be gathered to the Lord as we say pre-trib. There is what I think of as the translation into heaven of the 144,000 3.5 years in. There will be the ascent to heaven of the 2 witnesses, just after the AOD. There will be the gathering of Israel to her land when Jesus returns. And there will be the gathering of the nations for judgment when Jesus takes His throne.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I understand the previous parts of your post, but the above I have doubts about your interpretation.

I agree that when Lord Jesus returns, there will still exist Gentile nations on earth. But I also realize that Isaiah scripture like Isaiah 54 shows that Israel shall inherit the Gentiles and they will inhabit the old inheritances, meaning in the holy land.

I do not adhere to Darby's Dispensationalist theories which wrongly believes that when Jesus returns that only Israelites of the nation of Israel will be re-established in the holy land, while Christ's Church reigns with Him from Heaven. Darby came up with that theory it is obvious to support the false pre-trib rapture theory.

Like Apostle Paul said, with Christ's Church there is no difference between Jew or Gentile.

I don't know much about what Darby taught, so I can't really speak to that.

I believe that when Jesus returns we return with Him, as we will forever be with the Lord, that is, the Lord Jesus.

I believe the prophecies of the larger promised land, and the new land grants to each tribe.

I'm not seeing where Isaiah prophesied that Gentiles would have land grants in Israel, could you highlight that part for me?

Isaiah 54:1-17 KJV
1) Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2) Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3) For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4) Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5) For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6) For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7) For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8) In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9) For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10) For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
11) O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12) And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13) And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14) In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15) Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16) Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
17) No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

I already told you. Do you not read my posts, either? Revelation 14:14-17 and Revelation 19 (verse 7 in particular talks about the bride being ready for the marriage, so that is when the rapture occurs). I think he agrees with me that it is portrayed in Revelation 11:12, also.

That doesn't work because Rev 14:14-17 occurs at the 6th seal.....Immediately after the tribulation and before the 7th seal wrath of God.

Go fish.

 

[marks]

Not what you said in your Post #25. You said the bodies of the alseep saints are asleep in the ground.

You Said:"In 1Thessalonians4:14-18, at God the Father's direction (verse 14), Jesus brings from heaven the souls of Christians that have died (their bodies asleep in the grave) for the resurrection of those bodies. The resurrected bodies out from the earth are then reunited with the souls that Jesus brings with Him from heaven."

That above in red is the idea of men's doctrine called Soul Sleep. The idea that their flesh bodies in the casket is re-united to their spirit is part of the Soul Sleep Theory from men.

I've understood "soul sleep" to refer to the idea that after death, we are not conscious, including in heaven, and that our consciousness only returns in our resurrection.

Isn't @Douggg saying that after death we are conscious in heaven, and that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect our bodies, and we return with Him?

Much love!

 

[marks]

News FLASH = Every Born-Again Jew & Gentile is "Redeemed from the earth"

I've noticed you've posted several replies to me, I'm just reminding you that I generally don't read your posts, for reasons already given.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Could you explain to me how holding to the pre-trib rapture view causes one to become susceptible to thinking the "false messiah" will be Jesus? I don't understand that. Please help me to understand how that is not completely non-sequitor.

It is because of all the Bible Scripture warnings, especially the warnings for the end of this world that Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, and Paul in 2 Thess.2, 2 Cor.11, and John in Revelation.

Rev 13:4-9
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
KJV


The majority of my Christian brethren are not going to listen to someone like me who exposes per God's Word that the first supernatural one coming will try and mimic Lord Jesus Christ, with a full show of miracles on earth and everything. Why will most not listen to God's Word on this, like Matthew 24:23-26?

It is because most brethren have been bombarded with deceptive interpretations about the coming Antichrist, etc. Some church organizational denominations don't even believe there will be a coming singular Antichrist! That's how bad the deceptions are today. And most churches that do believe a singular Antichrist is coming first, they believe he must be a flesh-born man, and are even looking for him today, theorizing where he might be, Rome, New York, Brussels, Syria, etc.

Then many Churches wrongly preach that the war in heaven and casting out event of Revelation 12:7 forward already happened, either at Satan's original rebellion, or at the time of Christ's cross. They do not realize that it is about Satan with his angels literally... coming here, on earth, in our earthly dimension, and that is what the coming "great tribulation" is going to be about.

Like Hippolytus of the early Church wrote about the Antichrist at the end; he said Antichrist will mimic Christ Jesus in every way, even coming from the tribe of Judah like Jesus did, etc. Now if some of the early Church fathers understood, then how is it that so many brethren don't have a clue? Again, it is because of the deceptions from the crept in unawares that have taken over many pulpits today (Jude 4).

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

That "beast" is about Satan himself. Per Rev.9 Satan is that angel and king over the bottomless pit. Only Satan and his angels so far have been sentenced to perish at the future "lake of fire". No flesh-born has been judged to perish yet. When those whose names are not written in the book of life see him once he is cast out of the heavenly into our earthly dimension, they will wonder at him, not know who he is. But those who are sealed with God's seal and keep His Word will know who that is.

In Mark 13, when Jesus showed the time when even loved ones will be against His elect, it will be for this reason, their deception to Satan as the coming Messiah. When those sealed reject him, they will be persecuted. This is what Paul's "strong delusion" event of 2 Thess.2 is actually about. It is what Paul was warning about, even pulling from what Jesus warned about that coming pseudo-Christ that will work great signs and wonders that IF it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect.

In 2 Corinthians 11, Paul speaks of the "another Jesus", and warns brethren to not fall away in deception by the serpent like Eve did, but to remain like a "chaste virgin" waiting for our True Husband Jesus Christ. Those are strong metaphors and symbols Paul used. Yet that is the type language Lord Jesus also used about this matter of the coming false-Messiah and many who will fall away to worship him instead of waiting on Jesus to come afterwards.

The false interpretation of the Left-Behind ideas of Luke 17 is another example of that deception. Jesus showed the first ones 'taken' will like a dead carcase and will be wheresoever the fowls are, which means the fowls will be eating on them, symbolically. Thus those in Christ do not want to be the first ones 'taken', but must wait for Christ's coming, like a chaste virgin.

In Luke 23 when Jesus was on His way to be crucified, daughters of Jerusalem wept for Him. He told them to not weep for Him, but for themselves and their children, because the day would come when they shall say, "Blessed are the barren, whose paps never gave suck...". Jesus was giving a metaphor about false worship to the wrong Messiah. It goes with the "chaste virgin" idea that Paul gave, which both ideas originate from Isaiah 54.

It means there will be two types when Jesus returns, those who remained "a chaste virgin" waiting on Him, and then those who will be found symbolically 'with child' having played the married harlot with false-Messiah. That's what the opposite of a "chaste virgin" is, one who played the harlot with another. The symbolic womb of the "chaste virgin" remained 'barren' and without child, waiting on her True Husband to come, Lord Jesus. Thus her paps (breasts) never gave suck (to a child). But the other woman, she is found already married to another, and with child. That is actually the meaning of the parable in Isaiah 54:1. Lord Jesus used it, Paul used it, and we are to understand it in relation to the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ/false-Messiah.

 

[David in NJ]

I've noticed you've posted several replies to me, I'm just reminding you that I generally don't read your posts, for reasons already given.

Much love!

i am reminding you of what you will hear from the LORD when you get to Heaven

BEST for you to believe now the words of CHRIST and the Apostles so that you have greater JOY in the TRUTH

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity,
but rejoices in the truth;
7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

[marks]

It is because of all the Bible Scripture warnings, especially the warnings for the end of this world that Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, and Paul in 2 Thess.2, 2 Cor.11, and John in Revelation.

Rev 13:4-9
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
KJV

Isn't this speaking of those who are not saved? Who are not born again, who do not have the Holy Spirit?

The majority of my Christian brethren are not going to listen to someone like me who exposes per God's Word that the first supernatural one coming will try and mimic Lord Jesus Christ, with a full show of miracles on earth and everything. Why will most not listen to God's Word on this, like Matthew 24:23-26?

But this isn't what we are expecting to happen. We are thinking that Jesus is going to bodily remove from the planet all the living believers. So anyone showing up anywhere doing anything won't be that.

And speaking solely for myself, I can't imagine a scenario where I'd think that this was actually Jesus. I really don't see the connection.

It is because most brethren have been bombarded with deceptive interpretations about the coming Antichrist, etc. Some church organizational denominations don't even believe there will be a coming singular Antichrist! That's how bad the deceptions are today. And most churches that do believe a singular Antichrist is coming first, they believe he must be a flesh-born man, and are even looking for him today, theorizing where he might be, Rome, New York, Brussels, Syria, etc.

Yes, there is all manner of bad teaching out there. And there is much good teaching. But in speaking of a pre-trib rapture, if I'm expecting to be raptured, how will a "miracle working" earth dweller fool me into thinking he's Jesus?

Then many Churches wrongly preach that the war in heaven and casting out event of Revelation 12:7 forward already happened, either at Satan's original rebellion, or at the time of Christ's cross. They do not realize that it is about Satan with his angels literally... coming here, on earth, in our earthly dimension, and that is what the coming "great tribulation" is going to be about.

I don't think that. How am I susceptible?

Like Hippolytus of the early Church wrote about the Antichrist at the end; he said Antichrist will mimic Christ Jesus in every way, even coming from the tribe of Judah like Jesus did, etc. Now if some of the early Church fathers understood, then how is it that so many brethren don't have a clue? Again, it is because of the deceptions from the crept in unawares that have taken over many pulpits today (Jude 4).

Same objection. How is it that the Holy Spirit will not affirm inside me this is not Jesus? And why would I think it's Jesus when I believe the Bible describes something very different? While affirming that there will be false Christs. But his is not what Jesus will do, so why would I suddenly think He will?

It means there will be two types when Jesus returns, those who remained "a chaste virgin" waiting on Him, and then those who will be found symbolically 'with child' having played the married harlot with false-Messiah. That's what the opposite of a "chaste virgin" is, one who played the harlot with another. The symbolic womb of the "chaste virgin" remained 'barren' and without child, waiting on her True Husband to come, Lord Jesus. Thus her paps (breasts) never gave suck (to a child). But the other woman, she is found already married to another, and with child. That is actually the meaning of the parable in Isaiah 54:1. Lord Jesus used it, Paul used it, and we are to understand it in relation to the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ/false-Messiah.

To me these are very different matters, like, do we keep the Sabbath? And, Did Jesus turn water to wine? No matter what you answer to the one, there is no effect on the other.

Will Jesus come for the church in a pre-trib rapture, or does the church remain for the 70th week?

Will Jesus come from heaven in power and glory, His angels gathering His chosen, or will He reveal Himself in Times Square turning water into wine?

I don't see how the answer to one affects the other. Whether I'm right or not about pre-trib rapture, still, Jesus comes from heavne in power and glory with His angel army. Not revealing Himself in some earthly location.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I've understood "soul sleep" to refer to the idea that after death, we are not conscious, including in heaven, and that our consciousness only returns in our resurrection.

Isn't @Douggg saying that after death we are conscious in heaven, and that Jesus comes to earth to resurrect our bodies, and we return with Him?

Much love!

The Soul Sleep idea includes the idea that our dead flesh is reunited to our spirit. That is what Dougg believes.

But what does God's Word teach? Did you bother to look up 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 about the "spirits in prison"? Some on that false Soul Sleep old Jewish tradition even try to make up falsehoods about those "spirits in prison", wrongly claiming they represent demons or evil spirits, like Jesus preached The Gospel to demons in the sense of proclaiming His Victory. No, that is a falsehood. 1 Peter 3 tells us those dead were those had died before, meaning they had once lived upon this earth. And we know those are not about the giants, because Isaiah 26:14, in the Hebrew, reveals that the giants (Rephaim) shall not rise, i.e., not resurrect.

As I mentioned Eccl.12:5-7, it reveals that our spirit part goes back to God Who gave it, but our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from. Pagans believe that every living thing is animated by a spirit-force, and that is how many have wrongly interpreted that spirit part in Eccl.12. Hebrews 4:12 reveals God made us with 3 parts, a spirit, a soul, and bones and marrow, meaning a flesh body. Our spirit is a spirit body, but our soul is our actual person. Our spirit is permanently attached to our soul. But our spirit/soul can leave our flesh body, and does so permanently if our "silver cord" of Eccl.12 is severed at flesh death.

Per 1 Cor.15, Paul taught the body of the world to come will be a "spiritual body", not another flesh body, nor even a joining of the old flesh body. At 1 Cor.15:50, Paul even said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. It's a simple matter, the flesh is of this earthly material dimension; our spirit body with soul is of the heavenly dimension. Whether here on earth, or there in the heavenly, we must have a body for our soul to get around in. In the heavenly, it is the "spiritual body". This is why Paul also said in 1 Cor.15 that as we have borne the "image of the earthy", we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly."

I find that many brethren really don't believe angels truly exist, simply because they don't think they've ever seen one, their mind usually thinking of seeing big wings on their backs and such, like old renaissance paintings. I believe we all have seen angels walking upon this earth at one time or another, and didn't know it, like Hebrews 13:2 said. Genesis 18 & 19 revealed Christ appearing with two angels to Abraham, and Abraham prepared food for them and they did eat. Same with the two angels who were sent to Lot. Some brethren are so wrapped up in their fleshy mind that they think those had to have taken on some flesh body just to appear on earth in our earthly dimension. No, Jesus was only the flesh one time, when born though Mary's womb.

My point is, the "spiritual body" can, and will live, upon this earth, without the need for another flesh body. Our Heavenly Father once lived right here on earth, which Genesis 2 reveals with His Garden of Eden was once here on earth. And like Apostle John said, "God is a Spirit." So our Heavenly Father definitely was not in a flesh body while on earth back then.

When Lord Jesus returns, ending this present fleshy world, then all will understand these things. Both dimensions are going to be revealed right here on earth, together in the same time and space.

 

[The Light]

I wouldn't call it two raptures, but here is what I see:

There is the church in Christ that will be gathered to the Lord as we say pre-trib. There is what I think of as the translation into heaven of the 144,000 3.5 years in. There will be the ascent to heaven of the 2 witnesses, just after the AOD. There will be the gathering of Israel to her land when Jesus returns. And there will be the gathering of the nations for judgment when Jesus takes His throne.

Much love!

I see pretty much the same. However...........

Israel the woman, will flee to her place of protection and remain there through the tribulation and through the wrath of God.

It is commonly taught that the tribulation and the wrath of God is the same time period. This is incorrect. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal.

With these two sets of scripture below, we can see that tribulation is over at the 6th seal. We can also determine that Jesus returns at the 6th seal. Most people believe that the coming of Jesus in Matthew is the coming of Jesus with the armies of heaven for Armageddon. This is incorrect. Jesus is coming for a harvest. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. We can tell that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal because of the signs of the sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling from heaven.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

As we can see above the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is not coming of Jesus with the armies of heaven at Armageddon. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the sixth seal. There is a harvest. We can see the harvest in Revelation 14.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

We can see who was raptured at the 6th seal. It wasn't the Church, as they are seen in heaven in Revelation 5 after the pretrib rapture.

Those that are raptured at the 6th seal are singing the song of Moses.......They are of the 12 tribes.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

So there are two raptures. The first is the pre tribulation rapture of the Church. The second is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured at the 6th seal. The woman, Israel remains of the earth in a place of protection through the wrath of God which is the 7th seal.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. When you are reading Revelation 15 this is the same timeframe as Revelation 7. When you are reading Revelation 16 this is the same timeframe as Revelation 8-11.

 

[Davy]

Isn't this speaking of those who are not saved? Who are not born again, who do not have the Holy Spirit?

It will include brethren that become part of the great apostasy (falling away) that Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2. God's Word does not... teach man's theory of 'Once Saved, Always Saved'. There are those Jesus said that are called only, and then those who are chosen. The chosen are all sealed. But not all that have been called have been sealed.

This is why we find the Apostles, and Lord Jesus, admonishing us to not be deceived, especially at the end of this world. If all believers were 'sealed', then there should be NO warnings given by Christ and the Apostles against falling away at the end of this world. It's as simple as that. Paul gave many, many warnings in that.

But this isn't what we are expecting to happen. We are thinking that Jesus is going to bodily remove from the planet all the living believers. So anyone showing up anywhere doing anything won't be that.

IF... you believe man's false pre-trib rapture theory, which I think you do, then you will believe that. But that is not... what God's written Word teaches. Here I go again; Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that the time of His future coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation. Pre-trib teaches the opposite, falsely claiming we are raptured PRIOR to the tribulation, when that idea is nowhere written in God's Word.

And speaking solely for myself, I can't imagine a scenario where I'd think that this was actually Jesus. I really don't see the connection.

If you are here when that false-Messiah appears in Jerusalem, maybe you will be spiritually strong enough to realize that will be a fake-Jesus, working great signs and wonders. But what about many of your brethren that will be told by their preachers and church organization that is Lord Jesus when it won't be? What will you do then when they see you rejecting him?

 

[marks]

I see pretty much the same. However...........

I'll need a little time to assimilate what you've written here.

One thing I can mention initially is that I don't see the darkened sun and moon to be the same sign as the darkened sun and blood moon. Either the moon gives light (even red) or it doesn't, so I see these as separate events. And in this way I think I see greater harmony.

I agree, tribulation and wrath are fully different things. Tribulation, affliction, in this case, the greatest tribulation that ever was or will be. Some will result from God's judgments, and some from the beast's persecutions.

More to come . . .

Much love!

 

[The Light]

FACT Check: Everyone who is in CHRIST are Members of His Body, His Church, His Bride

Exactly. The Church today will be raptured before the tribulation. This is the first fold. Then blindness will be removed from part of Israel. The twelve tribes across the earth will keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. They will be raptured at the 6th seal. This is the second fold. Both folds are joined into one-fold, the body of Christ.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Can you guys SEE that pre-trib is lying to you when the Scripture clearly states the TRUTH/Facts

No. What I see is that you do not understand the Word of God. Study to show thyself approved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Although I would not call it a resurrection/rapture event like that of 1Thessalonians4:14-18, there will be people born, saved, die during the 1000 years reign of Christ.

So, those who would die during the supposed future 1,000 year reign of Christ would later be resurrected, right? Where do you think scripture speaks of their resurrection?

Why did Jesus speak of all of the dead being resurrected at the same time if they instead will be resurrected on multiple occasions as you believe?

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Although life spans will be substantially increased.

Where does scripture teach this?

After the final rebellion of the nations, deceived one last time by Satan, at the end of the thousand years, there will be a resurrection of the millennium era dead in Christ and translation of the millennium era living in Christ, for the Great White Throne judgment.

Where does it refer to their resurrection?

For those saved, the Great White Throne judgment will be a time of reward for what they did for the cause of Christ during their life time.

That is the case for all who are saved. There is no basis for thinking that saved people will be judged on more than one occasion. We will be rewarded when Jesus returns, as it shows in Matthew 25:31-46.